When reading a friend's sucky writing

[Jack Spencer Jr]

While the party is going on, how about talking about writing in general and stuff. I'll start with what the heck do you say to someone who's writing is just not good.

The situation: A friend's girlfriend is writing a book. She's given a copy to the wife to read. I'm not supposed know it exists by the wife's eyes suck so she's making me read it to her.

Oh

My

God

What can you say about a piece when only positive thing you can say about it is that the penmanship is flawless but they used a word processor? I mean it's filled with awkward sentence structure, she needs to pry the comma key off of her keyboard if you get me, and some totally bad narrative decisions like setting up and event and then not telling us what happened.

The sad part is, the actual story in here might be pretty good if she could just improve her writing ability. The other problem is she's the type that takes things personally. If you were to say "It's chilly in here" she would take that as a personal slight about the way she keeps her home or treats her guests or something and sulk about it for years.

So what does one do? I have an easy out since she doesn't think I know this thing exists, but how would you handle this kind of situation? Obviously just wearing a shit-eating grin and saying "It's great." isn't the way because then she'll never learn.

[lumpley]

Getting involved in somebody else's creative process is a deep, dark pit.  I'd never volunteer for it.

Like, this friend of yours, if her writing sucks, that's okay.  She'll find out sooner or later, and the person who tells her is taking on a big responsibility.  If you have enough invested in her as a writer to take responsibility, well, that's your call.  If you don't, smile and say it was pretty good.  If you aren't enthusiastic she won't bring you more, and everybody wins.

If she hasn't chosen to share it with you, I think you're obligated to pretend you haven't read it.  I got nothing against reading people's stuff on the sly, but the decent thing to do is play innocent.

-Vincent

[Tim C Koppang]

Well if you're not willing to lie, a bad idea in this situation anyway, then you're going to have to tell her... the truth--which can be tricky if she's not the kind of person who's used to criticism.  After three fiction and one poetry workshops I almost expect people to rip my drafts to shreds when I show my writing to them.  However, from the sounds of things, this person is not in any way prepared for this kind of treatment.

But she has to learn some time.  Here's a couple of suggestions.

1. Give it to her in small bits.  If she's really serious about making this book work, then she should also realize that one draft just ain't gonna cut it.  I would try at first pointing out the major story flaws you see.  Work on the big, over-arching problems before hitting her with all of the nit picky grammar stuff.  As she works on the story, then you can slowly point out other, more specific critiques.

2. Do things with marginal comments, instead of face-to-face.  This might let her digest you comments at her own pace.  And hopefully it will be easier to take.  If she has questions, then talk to her.

Overall, keep it friendly and most importantly tell her what does work.  You said there wasn't much, but find things in the story that interest you and point those out to her.  Even if she's only got one sentence worth reading, show it to her and tell that you really liked it--that it stood out among all the rest.  :-)  Whatever you do, don't just bash her writing.  You have to give her hope.

[szilard]

Hmm.

Did she ask your wife for her opinion of the book, or did she just think your wife might enjoy reading it?

If the latter, then it might be best to simply remain polite and noncommittal.

If someone actually asks for a considered opinion of their writing, though, they should be willing to accept constructive criticism. In general, I would make it clear that I would not be willing to read something unless the writer was truly willing to hear my thoughts on it... and let them know up front - before reading it - that you might not like everything.

Some tips from the writing workshop I used to run in college:

Keep the criticisms constructive. Most people won't respond well to, "This sucks!" ...and I can't say that I fault them for that. Emphasize the good. Point out that some things get in the way of the good stuff. Give her some concrete examples of where there is, in fact, something worthwhile that is eclipsed due to other problems. Show her how those problems might have been fixed in order to emphasize the good bits. Make it clear that you understand that your solution need not be the only one.


Stuart

[Ron Edwards]

Hey Jack,

Unless I'm missing something, she didn't ask you for your input, right?

If that's right, then you're golden. No comments necessary.

Best,
Ron

[Jack Spencer Jr]

OK, some responses in no particular order.

Ron: Thanks. A valid point but I want to coach the wife on this so that she will give her the proper feedback and either A) she'll improve and B) she'll stop giving it to us to read. I'm not supposed to know about it, but I'll wind up reading it anyway.

A little note on this. I think I'm not supposed to know about it because many, many years ago the wife (then girlfriend) had written something and I and this woman's boyfriend trashed it pretty hard. This might have her afraid to let me read it because I will trash it. And I do.

Stuart: The wife says she gave it to her under the pretense of she might enjoy reading it but has been anxious for her opinion of the book. The wife also says she says she wants constructive criticism but is really, really hoping for gushing.

I said it once I'll say it a million times. Writers are needy bastards.

On a side note, this woman had first started writing it ten years ago and had it torn to shreds. She has only recently picked it back up again. So it's not still draft one, I don't think.

Thanks for the advice, guys. While I should be golden, there's something in me that for some idiotic reason wishes to be in harms way. Maybe my heart is going out to her and she's getting no proper feedback. The wife is saying non-commital garbage for the most part and her boyfriend is hiding behind "it's not my kind of book." Horseshit. He just doesn't want a month of cold, lonely nights. Somebody has got to be straight with her or she will never improve.

Funny, this reminds me of a scene out of Catcher in the Rye in the piano bar and the piano player showed off too much playing extra notes so it sounded corny but everyone clapped anyway so the guy had no idea that he was corny. It's like that. Hopefully reason will win out and I'll stay out of trouble.

[szilard]

I said it once I'll say it a million times. Writers are needy bastards.

So are game designers, or so I hear...

Anyway, what I'd probably suggest is that your wife let her know that she thinks there are some good ideas or whatnot, but that some of the language gets in the way of that. She could ask her friend if she's considered taking it to a creative writing workshop or considered finding someone with a background in creative writing to edit it.

Stuart

[Jack Spencer Jr]

So are game designers, or so I hear...

What are they if not a specialized type of writer?

She could ask her friend if she's considered taking it to a creative writing workshop or considered finding someone with a background in creative writing to edit it.

Well, as I had said before, she had been in a writing class and didn't care for the treatment she got. Her boyfriend was an English major so if she wants that, he can do it.

[Valamir]

How about just telling her that its a really good start but her writing could probably benefit from taking some writing classes to get some of the language nuances down.

Encouraging, yet indicative of a need for improvment.

[Jason L Blair]

The first thing you do is say, "So Ron, you wrote a new essay?"*







*Yes, I'm kidding. C'mon! Lighten up, ya drunken bastiches.

[RobMuadib]

Jack

Just tell your wife to tell her ...

"Being that writers are their own worst critics. It's not as bad as you think." :)

Oh, that reminds me of the great title of one of the how-to write type articles in the Writers Of The Future anthology, #7, by Karen Joy Fowler.

"You, Yourself Are A Delight, And It Is Only Your Work That is Overwrought Or Lacking In Affect Or Cliched Or Drearily Jejune."

:)

Rob

(Who really should have written like a whole trilogy of novels not to mention have finished his game by now, sigh.)

[Eric J.]

This is something I constantly have to deal with.

My brother (and player) can't write to ... I can't express how bad it is.  He can't spell or anything.  It's REALLY annoying.  I am an android programmed for self-defense...

Anyway- It's hard.

I have one experience.  When I tried writing a book in 7th grade I wrote a novel as bad as the seas are deep.  My mom liked it a lot, and my dad didn't.  So, it was kinda' wierd.  Eventually I found out that my dad still had it on his computer, even though I had lost it with the reformats long ago.  I wish I had gotten more criticism myself.  

Anyway- Latelly, no one will even read what I write, which REALLY sucks.  
I've also gotten comments that my poetry 'Will never be good' and it really hurts.  Thus I say, 'Make sure that you guys finish the work.  That shows that you gave the writer a fair chance, and that you cared enough to go through it.  And don't say that they will never become better.'

I don't think that that helped, but oh well.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

Eric, that's a good point. No one can tell how good or bad another person's work will be in the future, and anyone who says so is being a real asshole.

Jack, man, this is the Birthday Forum, so I'll be a bit more personal than usual: walk away from it. You said it yourself, you're putting yourself in harm's way, and I can't see any benefit. To help your wife? To "coach her" in what to say? Come on! Your wife is a human being and a grownup all by herself. This is your ego talking; you want to slam this woman.

"Guys? I'm holding my hand in this fire? And it really hurts! How can I position it differently?"

"Jack, take your hand out of the fire."

"But I want it in there!"

Pause.

'K.

Best,
Ron

[Jack Spencer Jr]

This is your ego talking; you want to slam this woman.

Hmm... You may be right at that. Then I'll let it be and try to avoid the possibility of this situation and shall not attempt to engineer the posibility of my getting involved. (yes I had been making plans. What a sick bastard I am)

I shall also make the wife get new glasses so I don't have to read it anymore. So long as I have to read it, this will be a constant temptation.