mass combat

[Durgil]

I had forgotten about War Law.  Wow $99, not that I would ever sell any of my RPG collection, but I should probably take that off the self and take a look at it, when I get a chance.  It has probably been over ten years since I bought that.

[Chris]

<Sigh> Yes.  I never got around to ordering it, then ICE had to go "revamp" RM with a new edition, then they filed for Chapter Seven.  I guess someone, somwhere rolled high on the E "Failing Sales" Crit Table . . .

[Salamander]

I was kinda startled to hear somebody paid that much for it. I enjoy it, it works within the framework of RM and can give a few insights into massed battles for RPG's. I am not going to use it for TRoS though. I am (very eagerly) awaiting the arrival of Flos Duelatorium (TFoB)...

[Darth Tang]

I picked up both War Law and Sea Law on Ebay, then sold 'em for a profit. Both were absolutely superb for depicting combat, but at the expense of being a stand-alone game. One of the best aspects was 'unit skills', in which units could be trsained or rated in scores of skills; additionally, by includeing specialists withjin a unit, gave the unit a skill base. In essense, units were PCs, and grew with time. It would have been interesting to have players control mercenary or regular military units in a campaign using the WL rules, but as a medium for resolving RPG battles, it was too complex.

[Lance D. Allen]

In essense, units were PCs, and grew with time.

Yes. With the concept of mass melees being scaled up versions of individual duels, this concept is very fitting. I can easily imagine each commander running multiple "duels" with engaged units. A given unit can split pools to deal with two other units, etc. I like this idea muchly.

See? Research.

[Jason Kottler]

You know, GURPS seems to get short shrift around here. Is there a general "GURPS sucks" vibe on the Forge that I'm just oblivious to because of the fifty thousand metric tons of GURPS material on my shelves?

Anyhow, for way less than $99 you can pick up a copy of GURPS Compendium II ($23.95 suggested retail). It contains the mass combat rules first seen in GURPS Vikings...or maybe it was Horseclans...whatever. They're in there.

The more the PCs risk, the more they as individuals can turn the tide of battle. But with that risk comes a greater possiblity for harm to a given PC.

[toli]

Anyhow, for way less than $99 you can pick up a copy of GURPS Compendium II ($23.95 suggested retail). It contains the mass combat rules first seen in GURPS Vikings...or maybe it was Horseclans...whatever. They're in there.

As I noted above, there was also a free download version of the GURPS mass combat rules.  I thought there were quite handy.  The rules allow for tactical advantaves of certain types of troops (cavary vs infantry or pikemen negating cavalry), individual risk, and a bunch of other things.  

In terms of skill names, they over lap with TROS, eg, strategy, tactics, leadership, weapon skill etc.  In addition, certain outcomes are based on the level of success, which could easily be converted to the number of successes for use with TROS.

For a very abstract approach PENDRAGON has a good mass battle set up.  The rules are spread between a number of books, however.  They also change bit by bit between editions, so can be a bit hard to follow.


NT

[Brian Leybourne]

Yes. With the concept of mass melees being scaled up versions of individual duels, this concept is very fitting. I can easily imagine each commander running multiple "duels" with engaged units. A given unit can split pools to deal with two other units, etc. I like this idea muchly.

That's the kind of concept I have been going with, although a unit may not have to always split it's pool, if it's big enough - given that many men in a large unit fighting a smaller unit will be unengaged at any one time, it makes sense that such a unit could at times fight on two fronts without (much) loss of efficiency.

But yeah, the concept is the same. At the gritty level, units are statted up like characters and assign dice to terrain rolls (maneuvering), attacking and defending and so on. Move back a step for larger battles and units make simpler tactics and battle rolls, move back a step again and the battle commander(s) for each side make tactics and strategy rolls and the entire army is treated as a mass of men and not units at all. Three different levels of combat, depending on how big your armies are and how abstract you like your mass combat.

And of course, at all levels, player character actions are (very?) important too.

Brian.

[r_callen221]

Guys~

     Okay, I'm relatively new to the forum (long time reader, first time poster sort of thing), and I think I've got this right- TFoB is going to have rules for mass combat, correct? For hundreds of units? If so, then I'll gladly wait for the book to come out. I'm trying to find a way to replace my Birthright War Card system with something a bit more substantial and malleable than "200 units can do X." Does anyone know the scale of TFoB? That'd be useful to know.

Gawd, I ask a lot of questions. If I begin to irritate some, my apologies. I'm trying to make my campaign a good one. :)

Thanks,

Charles

[Brian Leybourne]

TFoB is going to have rules for mass combat, correct?

That's the plan, yes.

Does anyone know the scale of TFoB? That'd be useful to know.

In theory any scale although at the top end with thousands or millions you wouldn't want to use the grittiest resoluition method, opting instead for the most abstract one :-)

Gawd, I ask a lot of questions. If I begin to irritate some, my apologies. I'm trying to make my campaign a good one. :)

Questions are what the forum is for, don't apologise :-)

Brian.

[Lance D. Allen]

That's the kind of concept I have been going with, although a unit may not have to always split it's pool, if it's big enough - given that many men in a large unit fighting a smaller unit will be unengaged at any one time, it makes sense that such a unit could at times fight on two fronts without (much) loss of efficiency.

See, I disagree Brian. A unit that big will have enough dice to be able to split between two smaller units without worry, but against another unit of equal size, it'll want to use all of it's dice. A unit of equal size and a smaller unit attacking the one would force it to split it's dice, or maneuever so as to limit the effectiveness or block off the smaller unit.

Dicepools in this case shouldn't be a matter entirely of skill. Dicepools should be a matter of overall effectiveness. A small but elite unit of mercs might have a dicepool larger than most units it's size, or a well armed and armored one. Weapon range should definitely be in place, as well. A unit of pikemen is going to be able to slaughter a unit of swordsmen, unless the swordsmen manage to get inside the pikes, in which case...

Dude, is someone already working on this aspect? If not.. Can I? The possibilities are beginning to dawn on me quite nicely.

[Brian Leybourne]

See, I disagree Brian. A unit that big will have enough dice to be able to split between two smaller units without worry, but against another unit of equal size, it'll want to use all of it's dice. A unit of equal size and a smaller unit attacking the one would force it to split it's dice, or maneuever so as to limit the effectiveness or block off the smaller unit.

What I was getting at is that there's a limit as to how many men in a unit can fight another unit. In melee TROS, the limit is 3:1, lets use that as a temporary base and assume that if a unit is more than 3 times the size of the unit it's fighting, then some men will be unengaged. So if unit A is size X, and unit B is size 5X, then only 3X of unit B is fighting unit A. If unit C comes along and attacks unit B, 2X of unit B can fight unit C without any ill effect on the other 3X already fighting unit A.

That's a bit confusingly explained, but you see what I mean. In most cases, yes I completely agree, the unit(s) would have to split die pool(s).

Dicepools in this case shouldn't be a matter entirely of skill. Dicepools should be a matter of overall effectiveness. A small but elite unit of mercs might have a dicepool larger than most units it's size, or a well armed and armored one. Weapon range should definitely be in place, as well. A unit of pikemen is going to be able to slaughter a unit of swordsmen, unless the swordsmen manage to get inside the pikes, in which case...

Most certainly. That's all covered (and more).

Dude, is someone already working on this aspect?

I would have thought that my emails to date would have already answered that for you :-) It's already well in progress.

Brian.

[Jake Norwood]

Wow, this has thread has really exploded.

We're working on some neat, neat stuff for TFOB. I'm stoked about it. The plan is to make the rules in the book modular, almost like an encyclopedia of optional combat-related rules and ideas. We'll have an abstract mass combat system, something more tactical, and something that focuses on being in the fight, like what 7th sea or Pendragon does. It's going to be a pretty big frickin' book, I think. I we really want to finish it this summer. Yikes.

Jake

[Lance D. Allen]

Cool, cool. If it can do everything I'm thinking of, I'm gonna have to buy two copies simply because the first one will be ruined by the drool.

Oh, and Brian.. E-mails?

[Darth Tang]

As I noted above, there was also a free download version of the GURPS mass combat rules.  NT

You noted, BUT YOU DID NOT SAY WHERE!

Pony up the address, or prepare for the Hubcap of Shame!