Mechs

[Marco]

I'm working on JAGS Mechs. This isn't a game mechanics issue (I mean it is--but it's all tactical balance stuff and I'm not delving into that here)--but more of a concept thing:

Mechs, for lack of a better word, are *goofy*: The renditions we've been given (and the baseline here is BattleTech) don't make much sense.

Here is what we're doing with mechs. I invite comments on how our logic is holding up, where it might could be improved, etc.

1. The world is a far-flung space empire. It's built on the remains of a greater empire that collapsed into war over a thousand years ago.

2. The most significant remains of the former empire are Fabircation Plants. These are small to massive installations built with Wonder Tech (TM) that create pre-defined artifacts.

You hit the button you get coffee makers. You turn dials, you get medicine packages. That switch gives you mecha and weapons.

They don't make (other than hand-held energy side-arms and light tanks and personal power-armor--and a few other things) any other weapons. No high-tech jet fighters (really).

3. The society can build (slight) post-modern jets, however, one of the weapons that the Fab Plants chrun out are super-effective ultra-high altitude Stinger Missiles (future Stingers)--so air-power is out of the question. (both mechs and infantry forces have loads of them).

4. The plants can also put together highly effective ground-to-space cannons--so that orbital bombardment is rough.

5. Nuclear dampers exists. Space Ships run on "Cool Fusion" so they can't be shut down by a massive damper field--but you can't fusion nuke a planet either (and no anti-matter tech exists). You also can't land right on the capital (defended by guns) or (very effectively) bombard from space.  You have to land on a blind side (no one can protect a whole contintenent with anti-orbital batteries) and then march ... hence big mech battles.

Finally, although space-attack forces can *ruin* a planet pretty badly from space, they *don't* want to destroy the not-making-any-more Fab Plants that might be there (there's a whole cultural thing about preserving them--even if you're gonna lose).

6. The mech weapons you can get are all "short range" (meaning line of sight). If the FabPlants were operating at full capacity there would theoritcally be all kinds of OTH stuff--they're not.

7. Most mech weapons are indeterminante energy weapons (Heavy Thunderbolt)--they have fire-cycle times of 6 seconds (this makes maneuver more important and makles the Stand-and-Deliver tactical option less tasty). Weapons like machine guns fire every second but kinetic kill against mech armor is a lot less effective.

8. Sensors exists that will detect and (with microwave sweepers) destroy micro-drones. Anything from a high-altitude plane to overhead satelites can be shot down by ground forces--remember the intel-tech the armies would deploy is not created directly by the Fabrication Plants--it's either put together with modular components from them ... or created with barely post-modern infrastructre and doesn't hold up to the Fab-Plant created assault techniques).

Battlefield intel is either from Mech Style sensor sweeps or the "go and look" method.

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Now, we obviously did a lot of gyrations to try to make mechs prominent, give battles a tactical context, and still have the world make some kind of sense.  I'm aware that we had to contort things pretty horiffically (why can't "stingers" insta-kill mechs?) but, given what we've got, where are the holes? Would you believe it?

-Marco

[Thomas Tamblyn]

You missed something out - how big are the mechs?  Are we talking Heavy Gear (3m+ tall) or 100ton battlemechs?  If the former, you avoid a lot of the problems that mechs cause, since they're just powered infantry rather than walking tanks.

A solution to the "Why don't stinger toast mechs": the mechs they have electronic countermeasures suffiecient to throw them off most of the time - when the catastrophe happened, the balance was shifted slightly in favour of defense.

Since high-power weapons usually means long-range, I'd suggest using ECM as the justification for short-range mech combat.  This means that mechs are vulnerable to other mechs, so they pretty much operate on their own plane.  Rather like air-power nowadays, the guy who has mech superiority (wondertech superiority?) will probably win, making mechs central to all conflicts.

[Marco]

Sorry--Mech height is *real* important.

The smallest mech is 14 feet tall. The largest chassis is a bit over 30 feet.

-Marco

[greyorm]

In regards to the "stingers" not being used against mechs: I would assume the mechs and other infantry would have anti-stinger batteries that, in conjunction with the mech's sensors, effectively target and eliminate these sorts of missiles before they become a threat.

Or perhaps something in the design of the stingers themselves make them ineffectual against mechs or ground troops, something that currently hasn't been reverse-engineered (either because the technology is not well understood, or the costs of doing so to every missile that comes out of a PreFab would be prohibitive).

[Sidhain]

Mechs are fundamentlly fantasy. Just as superheroes or any number of game concepts. I would suggest if you really want to do mechs to examine more than one game--Battletech (which is a boardgame NOT an RPG--although it has an RPG add on)

There are others
BESM has them and had a book Big Robots and Cool Starships to supplant 1E, most of it was absorbed into 2E

Mekton Zeta, which shows ways of doing Transformers, Serious Votoms and such on up to silly superpowered things


Heavy Gear/Jovian Chronicles--another way of handling them for RPG's


In addition the source material--mostly Manga and Anime--Gundam (but not G-Gundam or Gundam wing which are way into the "superhero mecha" stage, Votoms, Patlabor, Macross, Mospeada, Evangelion, and Voltron among many others.

Mechs can /be/ virtially anything too--old Science Ninja Team Gatchaman--aka G-Force had tons of animal/insect robotic mecha as enemies to fight in their vehicles.



Don't use one source. Frankly that's like using D&D as a source for your fantasy version of Jags.

[Marco]

Sid,

We're not just usin' one source at all--and I can throw down wit' ya with a buncha *free* on the web Mech RPG's if ya want! :))

Our present system is geared towards a military paradigm--that is, how do mechs fit into the world. Sure, we got anime conventions all over the place (including demon summonsing magic if you decide to play with it) but we want to make sure that:

a) The far-future mechs won't get their mechanical butts kicked by the modern day 3rd ID (so ranges, damage, armor, etc. has to be reasonable for ultra-tech weapons).

b) That you can have a cool tactical mech battle if you want (with multiple roles and design strategies for mecha). That one given design isn't "ultimate."

c) That obvious questions (what happened to air power?) get answered.

d) That the situations that arise from the game (invading mech force, lack of orbital "air-support," siege conditions, etc.) make sense from a material standpoint.

There will be flying and transforming rules (I happen not to like flying mechs for some adventures--specifically those with some travel across the terrain rather than flying from point a to point b). We're going to try not to omit anything major.

-Marco

[Sidhain]

Clipping double half post..
See below

[Sidhain]

Good! Just all you mentioned was Battletech. (Probably one of the most popular, but IMHO the worst designed..)




A) One of the things to do is to make sure the ECM/ECCM etc help add to the humanoid defense--small mechs are better for this, but larger ones may work--Missiles won't work, nor many targeting systems making mechs make sense "sorta" by making their Electonics so good as to counter all advantages of tech other than slight enhancements for human pilots.


B) I once used a reason for mecha in a nearing the Apocalypse set up--Demons came back were huge, and nigh unstoppable with all that jazz missiles, rockets, laser nada...nukes too--only a human going one on one worked---so they used primitive melee weapons slightly empowered. But that's a very narro setting and dealt a lot with symbolism, synergy of humanity. etc.

C) Air Power may not be useful because of Satellite defenses--the above ECCM or the fact that the mech have built in Anti-air craft guns there is a limit to aircrafts size to efficiency.


D) I understand the need to limit air-mecha as well, you might just make it rank based if your going for military--or making the piloting of such vehicles much harder requiring ore training, psyche adjustment to the cyberfeed what have you


E) You mentioned magic either here or elsewhere--could Mecha be magic empowered--giving them an edge that only works on human forms--that is sorta similar to the synergy of human shape from my Demon based mecha game, but it might be something to consider if you want to do something distinct.

[Marco]

Heya Sid,

We're considering Bio-Mechs and Mystical-Mechs (but we'd like them to play different and the math to balance the plain techno-mechs is pretty stiff ... and we're not sure we're doin all that good a job).

So the answer is, at this point, *maybe*.

We do have EW/ECM and ECCM and Stealth all of which are special gear for mechs. An Aegis mech can shield other mechs, a mech with a targeting laser can paint a target and loan it's telemetry to other mechs to guide incoming fire. Mechs can use ECM "flares" and jamming to evade incoming fire and shield their friends.

-Marco

[Thomas Tamblyn]

I just had a thought (well, some thoughts) - Since you want the mechs to shrug off conventional (kinetic) weapons as well as being immune to the stingers, howabout this as a solution.

Mechs are armed with highly advanced energy weapons only (hence limiting conflict to line-of-sight since you can just say all energy weapons are LoS weapons and arcing energy weapons always seemed a bit silly to me).

Rather than super-armour (which raaises its own problems - mass, size etc) have the armour optimised against energy weapons (ceramics, refelctive surfaces etc) so the mechs can be resilient against other mechs without having to load down on bulky, heavy (and disbeleif-sispender-snapping) armour.

And finally, the mechs are all but immune to ballistic weapons and missiles because they all have a very powerful laser defence system and excellent sensors so that small (missile sized or less) projectile heading towards the mech is vaporised or knocked off course.  Naturally, this won't stop energy weapons.

This means that mech weapons and armour are not huge leaps in power beyond conventional, but it does mean that mechs have some very powerful advantages that can only be countered by the use of other mechs and allows artillery/infantry and mechs to operate on the same battlefield without stepping on each other's toes (No pun intended).

Is JAGS Mecha going to have art?  I ask because on their own, mechs are an absurd concept, but a great deal of what makes them beleivable (imho) is how they're presented visually.  Look at Votoms, Heavy gear, Gear Krieg, Five star stories, CAV (another miniatures game) and Gaseraaki (and arguably macross).  The mechs look like they'd work.  On The other hand, Gundam, Eva(not technically mechs I know), Voltron and other highly anthropomorphised mechs just look like giant men in armour.  Battletech mechs cover the entire spectrum, with things like the Madcat or a Marauder looking far more fuctional than a battlemaster or atlas.

The other way to make mechs seem plausable from a visual point of view, is how they move and how they interact with the scenery, but that's not a very useful option for you is it?  Still I thought I'd throw it in for completeness (ref: the anime Dual).

[Marco]

JAGS Mecha is going to have art--a lot of art. Otherwise we wouldn't release it for the exact reason you mention: Mechs are visual.

-Marco

[Walt Freitag]

Hey Marco,

I've been thinking about your original challenge, to poke holes in your schema of reasons justifying mecha. While I enjoy such a challenge, it occurs to me that by presenting such a schema in your game world, you'd be essentially issuing the same challenge to players. This is a problem, whether or not we or they succeed in poking holes. It's a distraction and it's largely beside the point in the genre.

To be fair, your schema is very well constructed. It has the right mix of solidity and flexibility to answer most objections. I could only think of a few possible weaknesses, and these can certainly be patched:

1. Why can't weapon systems be disassembled from mecha and mounted on more efficient or more suitable platforms? Or can mecha not be disassembled, which would also imply that they cannot be repaired?

2. So mecha are available "as is," with no choice of their general design. That's fine. But given those mecha to fight with, why fight standing up? It makes more sense to fire shoulder- and arm-mounted weaponry from a prone position behind as much cover as possible.

3. It seems very likely that your system will include rules for players designing custom mecha. But the ability to customize might be hard to reconcile with the in-game reality of "turn on the factory, mecha come out."

You might consider another way to justify mecha, one that's less based on the real world but more in line with the themes of mecha stories. This could be done with just one "alternate reality" fact, instead of eight: the idea that the degree of unity between pilot and vehicle necessary to survive on the battlefield can be achieved only if the vehicle mimics the human form. The fantasy-martial-arts-style total unity of mind and body (which is what mecha combat is all about, basically) allow the piloted mecha to have a degree of awareness, responsiveness, and effectiveness that no other type of weapon (and especially, no mere computer) can match. The piloted mecha can dodge laser-guided missiles the same way martial arts masters in other genres can dodge bullets. (Unless, that is, those missiles are fired with perfect predictive aim and timing by an attacker in an equal state of hyper-awareness, i.e. another mecha.) The mecha's anthropomorphic form is necessary to achieve that state.

This is blather (in reality humans are amazingly capable of becoming "one" with a wide variety of machines of all kinds of shapes, from bicycles to jet fighters), but it's comfortable familiar blather congruent with modern myths about martial arts capabilities that just slightly transcend ordinary physics. (Such capabilites were originally attributed to spiritual attainments in the early martial arts genres, externalized as the Force in Star Wars, and re-interpreted as the power of being truly human in a sham world in The Matrix.) I believe it fits the genre better than a lot of rationalizing about microwave satellites this and nuclear dampers that.

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From my misspent youth: the second verse of the lyrics I wrote for the "Imperial March" musical theme from The Empire Strikes Back:

When we blow rebel bases to hell,
We don't use bombs 'cause they work much too well.
Walking tanks are what we approve
For targets that cannot move
On ground that is flat, smooth, and clear.
Who cares if they get disarrayed
By one man with one grenade,
As long as we strike them with fear.

- Walt

[Bankuei]

Hi Marco,

As a big fan of the mecha genre, I can only chime in with Walt and say, "Yeah, man, what he said!".  But really, the point is that providing a "realistic enough/plausible" excuse for giant robots pretty much comes almost to the same point as arguing whether tall and aetherial or short and waify elves are more "real".  I mean, if you're going to include bio mecha and magical/psi powered mechs, it just seems that you're already past the point of "plausibility" anyhow.  

People use mecha cause they do, because its cool.  

Chris

[Marco]

Chris,

I don't argue elfs--but whichever elfs ya choose, I expect them not to be big mecha-sized logic holes in the story. I'm not shooting for scientific explanations--I'm looking for viable tactical/strategic frameworks. I'm not asking for plausibility (I said Mecha were goofy right at the start)--I'm looking to give the participants some foundation for addressing the world.

While some people seem to find that counter-productive, I don't--and I doubt most people do.

-Marco

[Marco]

Hey Walt,

I like your blather. The idea of martial-arts master style dodging is quite cool. Some of the characters will use the Fast Company rules (which include dodging bullets) so that's actually fairly in-line with what we were doing.

Currently the Mechs do have a "dodge" option (which is not especially realistic). Your explanation is pretty interesting along those lines.

Our explanation is certainly not going to be presented as "all those other mecha games suck because they didn't explain the world--" more like "here's what spaceships are like." Here's a picture of an anti-orbital battery. Here's a description of a tactical war.  Here's a note on air-power. Stuff like that.

I honestly doubt people will pay a lot of attention to the specifics--most of them will simply work inside the genre box and not (I expect) worry too much about it. However, if we can come up with a framework that happens to channel tactics into cool mech battles, I don't think it'll detract.

-Marco
[ Walt, for what it's worth:

a. Great lyrics! I love it.
b. I *assumed* they were trying to *capture* the base ... but y'know, I kinda doubt it was that well thought out.

c. The giant gaping logic holes in Return of the JEdi *did* ruin the movie for me. Lucas can say it was in genre all he wants, I was young at the time--I shoulda been impressed--I wasn't. Genre's not a defense for glaring holes in the internal logic of a story. ]