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Started by Matt Gwinn, May 08, 2003, 01:20:07 PM

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Ron Edwards

Um, I really need clarification, Matt. I was not thinking about anything like what Andy's talking about at all. My notion stemmed from the finding-gamers concern that Bryan is struggling with and has little or nothing to do with advertising specific games, and definitely nothing to do with selling its use to people (i.e. publishers). The very idea appalls me.

Best,
Ron

Clay

Sounds like you folks were more interested in an e-mail discussion list. Those  really only serve a purpose that isn't already met here and at RPG.net when they're localized, so they can be used to publicize events and organize play.  For that, start a Yahoo group and post a card in your FLGS.

For reasons why you would use a paper mailing list, see Using Mailing Lists.  If they're managed properly they aren't as evil as they might seem.
Clay Dowling
RPG-Campaign.com - Online Campaign Planning and Management

Matt Gwinn

Andy is on the same wavelength as me.

I'm thinking, collect a list of addresses, put them in a database, then sell the list to businesses that can use it as they see fit.

Sorry if that appalls you Ron, but businesses do that ALL the time.  The company I work for wouldn't exist without it.  Any mail you receive that didn't come from someone you know likely came from someone who bought a list with your address on it.

Now, if the list were being sold to people that have nothing to do with the gaming industry I would definetly have a problem with it, but I don't think most gamers would have a problem with receiving game related advertisements in the mail.  Then again, that's probably what all those credit card companies think about all those credit card aplications I keep getting.

And I'm not talking about an email list.  I hate SPAM...and no, it's not the same as junkmail.

,Matt G.
Kayfabe: The Inside Wrestling Game
On sale now at
www.errantknightgames.com

C. Edwards

I'm not sure I see the point of wasting the paper when email is a perfectly viable outlet for advertising. I get wonderful little ads and 'heads up' on clearance sales and what not from REI and Campmor. They don't automatically get deleted by me because I chose to recieve them. SPAM I can just dump, hard copy going by the truckload into the landfill just, well, pisses me off.

-Chris

Matt Machell

I think the point is that a paper based mailing list, depending on how it is acquired, could target a huge swathe of the market that doesn't use the 'net.

-Matt

C. Edwards

What kind of heretic doesn't use the net?!  ;)

ace pilot

Quote from: Matt GwinnAnd I'm not talking about an email list.  I hate SPAM...and no, it's not the same as junkmail.

,Matt G.

Hmmm... you're entitled to your own opinion, but I think that for most ordinary people and the folks on Capitol Hill considering the anti-junkmail bill, junkmail (any unsolicited email) IS spam.

That said, I agree with Ron.  Spam (or junkmail, if you prefer) opens up all sorts of opportunities for fraud, and costs consumers millions (or billions, I don't remember the figure) of dollars a year, and thus is viewed in a very negative light.

RPGs are very much a reputation-based industry.  Are you sure you want to be known as a person who contributed to more junkmail?

Cheers.

Andy Kitkowski

Quote from: ace pilot
That said, I agree with Ron.  Spam (or junkmail, if you prefer) opens up all sorts of opportunities for fraud, and costs consumers millions (or billions, I don't remember the figure) of dollars a year, and thus is viewed in a very negative light.

You're still talking about SPAM here. SPAM and junkmail are fundamentally different. With SPAM, if you have scripts handed to you, it costs you NOTHING to send out millins of messages, slowing down the network, etc.

With mass mailings/junk mail, the person doing the mailing is taking a risk, putting up hundreds or thousands of dollars to mail out to tons of people. The USPS certainly don't complain about "too much mail to deliver", as each bit of junk mail, even if it ends up in the recycle bin, puts a few pennies of profit per letter into the governmen's pocket.

With harvesting a mailing list (physical, not email), you're just allowing RPGcompanies the opportunity to, if they want to, mail directly to people interested in RPGs. Not cars, not children, not sports, but RPG ads to RPG players.

Quote from: ace pilotRPGs are very much a reputation-based industry.  Are you sure you want to be known as a person who contributed to more junkmail?

Again, though, the people receiving the "junk mail" (maybe we should call it Mass Mailings instead, a less loaded term) had signed up for it. These addresses aren't harvested without their consent.

Sure, EVERY DAY I get color ads from area restaurants, credit card companies, furniture stores, etc, that I immediately toss in the recycle bin. If ANYTHING RPG related EVER came to my house, you can bet yer ass ;) I'd give it a look (even after the initial shock and surprise) for a few minutes. Even if it was some new WW game line ad or WOTC promo flier, it'd have my undivided attention for a few seconds, as opposed to all the other crap (sports, pizza, credit, mortgage, school, church, furniture) that comes in. Heck, anything RPG related that came in the mail would bring a little light into may day after a long day of work in a way that email just couldn't match.

Plus, with email, there is again that lack of effort required to send the mass mailings: Any hoser could get the list and spam every day for things like miniatures, D&D, card games, clix games, indie games, etc. Plus, it's just a matter of time before that list, or names off of it, get picked up by some OTHER Spammer.

But with mail, since there's that extra level of money and time commitment, only dedicated folks would invest in such mass-mailings.

I'd say that, if I had impact on the project, that whomever did it would take that address list and "sell" it to RPG companies for a few meager bucks (to cover a little bit of work/energy lost), or just offer it free to companies/designers who register (to prevent Macy's or Bank One or whatever from grabbing the list and using it to mass-mail crap).

Again, in this sort of situation, it's win-win for everyone. You have people saying "Send me RPG Mail, PLEASE!" and you have companies/designers/publishers who have lists knowing that, if the address is good, that they'll have a higher rate of interested potential clients than if they had tried any other form of marketing, including SPAM.

-Andy
The Story Games Community - It's like RPGNet for small press games and new play styles.

Valamir

I get regular paper mailings from Omega Games.  They come in a 6x9 envelope and usually contain a catalog and some flyers.  Usually ads to subscribe to Paper Wars...a gaming newszine and various wargame catalogs.  Used to be alot of Speerhead but I think they're OOB, now its mostly Avalanche and the occassional game from Omega itself.

I've bought a ton of games from that.  Including one game that I paid preorder for that was on its way to press that due to many freaks of nature and acts of god took 3 YEARS to actually get to me (but it is a hell of a game).  A ton of Speerhead stuff I got on clearance and a good bit of Avalanche.

Aside from Convention material...its the only paper gaming stuff I get.  I do get Columbia's online newsletter and I'm still subscribed to NoVag...a gaming club from when I was in Northern Virginia.  I also still get stuff from the BPA, the Baltimore group that picked up the slack from AvalonCon when AH bit the dust.

So there are a lot of these lists out there.  I've seen them more for board games (all of the above aside from the convention stuff are board and mostly war game related).  But I see no reason why RPG stuff wouldn't fly.

clehrich

QuoteRPGs are very much a reputation-based industry. Are you sure you want to be known as a person who contributed to more junkmail?
Actually, this is exactly why I think paper mailing would be a great idea.  I mean, Heartland may be kind of a seedy catalog (and we've all seen seedier), but it's certainly a legitimate business.  Who knows who those weirdos are who send you spam email?  I think that if the ordinary guy (remember, close to 1% have gamed) gets a piece of junk mail that (1) is explicit about why he got it, and (2) is entirely legitimate advertising for a bunch of gaming products of various sorts, that guy is going to feel a bit more comfortable about gaming.

It's a sad fact, but in America a form of entertainment is more legitimate if it makes more money.  So if RPGs are increasingly perceived as real business, they'll be increasingly perceived as legitimate entertainment.  I mean, hell -- who decided all of a sudden that collecting souvenir swords was an ordinary cool thing to do?  Whoever that was, it succeeded, because they started appearing in catalogs all over the place.  Weird, but true: it's normal, red-blooded American behavior to buy numerous swords and hang them all over your house, just as it is to collect guns and put them around your house, but it's abnormal freak-o behavior to imagine swinging or shooting them in a fictional context.  Well, try marketing it as big business.

As to mailing lists for getting in touch with players, the one follows from the other.  If you start with all-email lists, you're just perpetuating and recreating the lists that are already out there.  If you start snagging people through gaming mailings, incidentally also alerting them to gaming options they maybe didn't know about (such as Indies), you can start putting in those "reader reply mailing" cards:

1. Take me off your list
2. Yes!  I want more!
3. Put me on the local Gamers List (check boxes for games / styles /etc. you like), and here's my email!

Now you charge a small fee to access that list, anonymously, via email; that is, you can pay money on a one-time basis, and click a button to send email to the list, graded by zip code, saying "Starting a game of X set like Y, need a player," and you might hit 100 people.  One person calls you back, which is all you needed.  The safety factor would be in the person using the service (1) not able to send anything but text, and (2) not ever able to see the list of emails or other info.

Why the resistance to this?  Everyone keeps talking about business and being sane and reasonable about expectations and marketing and whatnot, but everyone's really horrified by a practice that's been at the heart of American business for decades now.  

I'm an academic, and you know what?  I get academic junk mail.  That's right, several academic organizations I belong to sell my name, on big lists topically organized, to small presses and people like that.  I'm a member of the AAR (American Academy of Religion), and I'm interested in Catholic theology, so I get constant mailings from Paulist Press, and Loyolan Press, and so forth.  Do I ever order books from them?  No.  Do I flip through them and see what's doing lately?  Yes.  Do I really mind getting this stuff?  Hell no.  Would I mind if I got the same number of lengthy emails?  Yes.  Would I ever, ever read them if they were emails?  Absolutely 100% no, never.

Why this big resistance?
Chris Lehrich

talysman

Quote from: clehrich
Why the resistance to this?  Everyone keeps talking about business and being sane and reasonable about expectations and marketing and whatnot, but everyone's really horrified by a practice that's been at the heart of American business for decades now.  

well, a couple reasons occur to me:

(1) you mentioned in another Publishing thread the hidden segment of high school gamers. if you start either an email list or a paper list, you should be aware of privacy laws as they apply to minors, especially the recent changes (CIPA, I believe one is called.) you can get in serious trouble if you start selling the names and addresses of minors to other businesses.

(2) if you are going to sell names to companies, you need to take responsibility for which companies you sell to. there are many unscrupulous companies out there who could buy your list and misuse it; at the very least, given the current business climate, you will get spammers (email or smail) purchasing your list and then reselling it to porn advertisers, pyramid scammers, and others.

(3) people are getting sick of advertising. it's gotten far worse than in the past, and people are not as forgiving about it. I refuse to answer the phone anymore because of telemarketers; I screen all calls. I also throw away all junk mail immediately, even junk mail from companies I have bought goods and services from, unless I specifically requested a brochure. people program TiVos to zap commercials and buy anti-ad software to eliminate pop-ups. in response, companies are creating more annoying pop-ups and finding ways to disable anti-ad software (some antivirus programs now identify anti-ad software as viruses and remove them.) in short, advertisers are becoming desperate and arrogant, and it's further eroding the consumer's tolerance. right now, I would say anyone who doesn't carefully consider exactly where and how to advertise will lose more customers than they will gain.

(4) the very best advertising is and always has been word of mouth. advertising, when done right, is just a method of artificially generating word of mouth. a game publisher's first concern should be to publish a quality product, so that when someone buys and plays the game, they will want to talk about it.

this isn't to say that selling a mailing list might not work, if carefully handled. a better approach might be to create a newsletter for people who are interested in mailings, and sell some small ads in the newsletter; this is more respectful of people's privacy. you want to make it easier for buyers to become aware of game products; part of your method, then, should include controlling the amount of mail (paper or electronic) your mailing list generates, so that good messages are not drowned out by a huge volume of junk.
John Laviolette
(aka Talysman the Ur-Beatle)
rpg projects: http://www.globalsurrealism.com/rpg

Mike Holmes

Quotepeople are getting sick of advertising. it's gotten far worse than in the past, and people are not as forgiving about it.

Well, that may be true, John. But the thing is that it's not gotten to the point that it's become uneconomic to mail advertise. Someone must be buying from these sources. If not, then you wouldn't be getting the mail.

As long as there are more revenues being generated by mailings than the cost of the mailings, you'll see mailings.

Now, whether our market is more or less open to mailing I can't say. I react in horror because I personally hate paper mail. But that doesn't mean that you and I are typical. There may be many out there who would buy from such ads. On the whole I've seen nothing to think that gamers are any different than any other market on this.

So, while I find it personally objectionable, I can't say that it wouldn't work.

Mike
Member of Indie Netgaming
-Get your indie game fix online.

quozl

I'm still not sure what the mailings actually are.  (I'm thinking a newsletter type thing might be nice to receive in the mail.)

Anyhow, partner with the new RPGMall.com  Everybody who buys from them is interested in small press and is giving them their address.  Just have them put in a little checkbox and there's your mailing list.
--- Jonathan N.
Currently playtesting Frankenstein's Monsters