Stahl

[Nick the Nevermet]

Hello all,
I've been lurking here awhile and I'm glad to see a post on the setting rather than the rules.  While I love the rules, I think the setting of TROS has a lot of promise and still needs a lot of development. These are the types of discussions I enjoy most.

Me too.  I can't crunch numbers to save my life. :)

Maybe the missing piece in Stahlish atheism is universities.  Stahlisn universities could have very easily developed as a result of maratime trade, hense specializations in law, and because it was under the dominion of the Church for so long universities for theology could have started as well.  Now within a university of theology, perhaps one intellectual starting asking those theological questions that so bugger monotheitic religions (i.e. If the Three are all-powerful, all knowing, and all merciful, why is there evil in the world?)

<snip>

Hense, the current status of religiousity in Stahl is shaky.  Some nobles believe firmly in atheism, others pay lip service to it, but the mass of people below them still believe what they will (The Three, paganism, etc.).  Now, if the Church could get a sneaky preacher into the Stalhish countryside to preach a crusade against the heathen athiests, they might be able to spark of a rebellion and put into power people who not only would allow the Church back into Stalh, but would be a valuabe ally against Gelure.

I definitely agree cities and universities would probably play an important role, I'm just not exactly sure where they'd fit in. :)

I agree with your end picture of what the religious landscape of Stahl looks like now, though.

[Jake Norwood]

Hey all. I'm back from a trip to Texas to train with John Clements, etc.

I just wanted to say that this is my favorite kind of thread around here. I'm very happy.

Jake

[Nick the Nevermet]

I hope you had fun training :)

Do you have any opinions or specific things that catch you with Stahl / Atheism?

(Edited for grammr 'n spellin')

[Irmo]

*grumbles something about Jake only going to Texas once poor Irmo set sails back to Sta.. errrr Germany....*

I'd still like to talk a bit about cities, both in Stahl and elsewhere. In the real world, they were a major factor in the development of society, both in giving rise to powerful commoners, independent of the nobility, and by giving rise to scholarship outside monasteries. As such, I think the issue of cities and the power of the commoner population is a factor that needs to be considered also for the atheism by nobility fiat issue, but also in general for a better feeling on how the societies in Weyrth are set up.

[Nick the Nevermet]

I'd still like to talk a bit about cities, both in Stahl and elsewhere. In the real world, they were a major factor in the development of society, both in giving rise to powerful commoners, independent of the nobility, and by giving rise to scholarship outside monasteries. As such, I think the issue of cities and the power of the commoner population is a factor that needs to be considered also for the atheism by nobility fiat issue, but also in general for a better feeling on how the societies in Weyrth are set up.

Sounds reasonable, which of course means I want you to talk more :)

Historically, I only have a very basic understanding about the role of cities as centers of trade & learning.  I don't have a good grasp of details at all.  You obviously know German history, so use that to make some Wyerth specific details.  Propose a historical narrative so people here can pick at it and see if anything pops off.  I tried answering questions like these based on looking at the the effects of Xanarium as an imperial power (must...read... post colonial theory...).  I tried my best to defend it so I could see what worked and what didn't.

So, where did the Stahlish cities come from?  trade?  outposts of Xanarium or another empire?  Was learning originally linked to theology, or something else?  How did this develop over time?  So, have a go at it: using the setting's details, give the story of "religion and universities in Stahl." Pretend you're writing an abstract of a history book :)

Good news for me: I'm taking a historical-Comparative methods course ("Why did that country develop/industrialize/democratize this way and that country that way?") in my program at the fall, so by December I should be much better at BS'ing this stuff :)

[Irmo]

Sounds reasonable, which of course means I want you to talk more :)

Historically, I only have a very basic understanding about the role of cities as centers of trade & learning.  I don't have a good grasp of details at all.  You obviously know German history, so use that to make some Wyerth specific details.  Propose a historical narrative so people here can pick at it and see if anything pops off.  I tried answering questions like these based on looking at the the effects of Xanarium as an imperial power (must...read... post colonial theory...).  I tried my best to defend it so I could see what worked and what didn't.

So, where did the Stahlish cities come from?  trade?  outposts of Xanarium or another empire?  Was learning originally linked to theology, or something else?  How did this develop over time?  So, have a go at it: using the setting's details, give the story of "religion and universities in Stahl." Pretend you're writing an abstract of a history book :)

Good news for me: I'm taking a historical-Comparative methods course ("Why did that country develop/industrialize/democratize this way and that country that way?") in my program at the fall, so by December I should be much better at BS'ing this stuff :)

Well, one of my problems is that there is currently this thing called Atlantic Ocean between me and my copy of TROS. Hopefully, I will be able to have it shipped over in July, once I started in a new job here...

One reason why I am interested in this issue is that it will heavily figure into not just descriptions of Stahl, but other nations as well, since it makes a difference whether there is such a thing similar to the Hanseatic League having dependencies in other countries. It would mean a great deal more international trade and probably cultural exchange than otherwise. I'll see if I can dig up some books or websites on the rise of cities but it will be difficult to draw parallels to Weyrth without having my book here...

[A.J.]

On the topic of cities, what sort of things do you want to discuss?  Their political structure?  As if they were run by officals appointed by the local noble or if they were run by the guild masters of the city?  I think if you want to limit your discussion to 'cities', meaning large urban centers, one might have to first discuss economics since large cities are almost always the result of economic factors.  What products do the cities produce? (clothing, weapons and armor, etc?)

A major factor of city growth in the Middle Ages was the granting of town charters which gave the burgesses freedoms they would not have had if they were in the countryside, such as some degree of self-government.  The reason nobles granted these charters was because they could earn a good chunk of money taxing a city's trade.  Perhaps that's the first thing we have to decide about Stahlish cities, was the aristocracy willing to give up a degree of control over cities so that they could make money from them?

Are those the sort of issues you wish to discuss Irmo?

[Irmo]

On the topic of cities, what sort of things do you want to discuss?  Their political structure?  As if they were run by officals appointed by the local noble or if they were run by the guild masters of the city?  I think if you want to limit your discussion to 'cities', meaning large urban centers, one might have to first discuss economics since large cities are almost always the result of economic factors.  What products do the cities produce? (clothing, weapons and armor, etc?)

A major factor of city growth in the Middle Ages was the granting of town charters which gave the burgesses freedoms they would not have had if they were in the countryside, such as some degree of self-government.  The reason nobles granted these charters was because they could earn a good chunk of money taxing a city's trade.  Perhaps that's the first thing we have to decide about Stahlish cities, was the aristocracy willing to give up a degree of control over cities so that they could make money from them?

Are those the sort of issues you wish to discuss Irmo?

In part, yes. There were also the free cities within the Empire, which were subject solely to the Emperor himself, not to any local noble. That in part also led to some people fleeing the local countryside for the city trying to escape serfdom ("Stadtluft macht frei" 'City air makes (you) free'). Though they soon had to realise there were other dependencies in the cities, such as guilds etc., and they were free only if their master had not found them and demanded them back from the city's lord for a year and a day in some sources.

The heydey of 'citification' in Germany was between 1220 and 1350, though the wave had started already in the 12th century. Earlier cities had largely Roman origin (Cologne, Trier, Mainz, Worms, Augsburg, Passau, Regensburg...)

During the primetime of German cities, about 25% of the population lived in cities. Though of course, the scale of cities was much smaller then, with cities beyond 10,000 inhabitants being pretty rare -the vast majority had less than 2000. Still there were cities like Cologne with 50,000, Magdeburg with 30,000, Luebeck with 25,000 and a bunch of others with 10-20,000. And of course there were cities like Paris with 100,000, or later over 280,000, or Milan with 85,000

So we might need to keep two other factors in mind: Age of city-style settlements in a region (tribal societies often shun settlements of that scale), and centralization. A decentralized style of governing allows for a bunch of significant, but not huge cities to develop, while a centralized government can lead to the development of a huge metropolis.

[Nick the Nevermet]

So we might need to keep two other factors in mind: Age of city-style settlements in a region (tribal societies often shun settlements of that scale), and centralization. A decentralized style of governing allows for a bunch of significant, but not huge cities to develop, while a centralized government can lead to the development of a huge metropolis.

Well, as Stahl is described as hopelessly decentralized, I think we can safely say that there will be a lot of smaller cities.

As for the age of the cities... I'm not as sure about that.  More specifically, I don't think the pre-existing setting information guides us in a certain direction.

On the subject of something like the hanseatic league, I think it is a good idea, but a lot of things need to be considered.  Primarily, the coastline of Mainlund is RADICALLY different to that of Europe.  Stahl is a huge blob that just keeps going north and east.  Savaxen is an island due west of Stahl.  Angharad (sp?, the Welsh-type place) and Ferrenshire are both attached to the mainland (Stahl specifically), but not each other.  Picti is an island just south of Savaxen.  I don't know what the ramifications of all of that are, but I'm sure they exist.  

Also add to the mix that Portugal doesn't exist, and that the equivalent of Spain & Italy (Xanarium) is the source of conservative, traditional behavior, and I feel safe saying that sea-trading in general is going to be very, very different than anything in Europe.

[A.J.]

I agree with you Nick, sea trade is going to be much different, and while the Holy Roman Emperor might have wanted the backing of the cities, it doesn't seem like the High King of Stahl has been interested in trying to unify the country.  In addition, the book says that Stahl is pretty much self-sufficient.  I read this as meaning that far distance trade is quite limited.  I see Stahl as having a few large towns where their steel making and weapons and armor production goes on, but other than that a land with a lot of villages.  I think someone from Xanarium or Helana would see Stahl as a 'barbaric' country that is good only for its weapons and horses.  As such, I think the role of cities would be slight as compared to the Hanastic league.  Why would the High King want to promote them when there really isn't much money to be had from them?  It would just upset the nobles who own the land around and maybe in the city.  The High King probably wouldn't want those headaches!

The only real drive I see to giving freedoms to towns would be to promote weapon smiths into taking up residence in a particular town.  That would be a lucrative trade for a noble to get their taxation powers on.

[Nick the Nevermet]

2 thoughts...

#1
I forgot the thing about being self-sufficient.  This definitely sounds a bit different than a nation with strong trading.

With that being said, though, I suspect that specific parts of Stahl would be exceptions.  Looking at the map, Stahl is rather large.  I would imagine certain regions (parts of the southern coast, and the Mayyarfold area) are in strategic enough places that trade must go through them.  However, those areas would be very different than most of Stahl.  How this rift between higher and lower trade areas of Stahl plays out is anyone's guess... but I am SURE economics, politics, and Stahlnish atheism all get intertwined.


#2
This thread, IMHO, is important primarily because of the insights it can give into characters.  TROS is, in my view, a game that focuses a lot of time and energy on the motivations of characters.  Developing the setting, then, allows people to give their characters more by giving them an idea on what it means to be Stahlnish.  How do people actually practice Stahlnish atheism?  How would they react to a sorcerer or a Gol?  Is Stahl a genereally cosmopolitan place, or orthodox? (either way, I'm sure it is quite snobbish)  Setting information can help answer these questions, or possibly raise other interesting ones for players/characters to ponder.  I'm doing a poor job of integrating this comment into the pre-existing thread, but I think this is an important point to keep in mind while we discuss Stahl's culture and religion.

[Irmo]

On the subject of something like the hanseatic league, I think it is a good idea, but a lot of things need to be considered.  Primarily, the coastline of Mainlund is RADICALLY different to that of Europe.  Stahl is a huge blob that just keeps going north and east.  Savaxen is an island due west of Stahl.  Angharad (sp?, the Welsh-type place) and Ferrenshire are both attached to the mainland (Stahl specifically), but not each other.  Picti is an island just south of Savaxen.  I don't know what the ramifications of all of that are, but I'm sure they exist.  

Can anyone give a poor guy whose book is in a box on a different continent some brief description of what Savaxen looks like? Scandinavia was an important market of the Hanseatic league, and a lot would depend on a reasonable infrastructure...

At the same time:

Also add to the mix that Portugal doesn't exist, and that the equivalent of Spain & Italy (Xanarium) is the source of conservative, traditional behavior, and I feel safe saying that sea-trading in general is going to be very, very different than anything in Europe.

While the Hanseatic league today is most famous for its sea trade, it needs to be kept in mind that numerous landlocked towns were part of it, and it extended far south into the middle of today's Germany.

[A.J.]

This thread, IMHO, is important primarily because of the insights it can give into characters.  TROS is, in my view, a game that focuses a lot of time and energy on the motivations of characters.  Developing the setting, then, allows people to give their characters more by giving them an idea on what it means to be Stahlnish.  How do people actually practice Stahlnish atheism?  How would they react to a sorcerer or a Gol?  Is Stahl a genereally cosmopolitan place, or orthodox? (either way, I'm sure it is quite snobbish)  Setting information can help answer these questions, or possibly raise other interesting ones for players/characters to ponder.  I'm doing a poor job of integrating this comment into the pre-existing thread, but I think this is an important point to keep in mind while we discuss Stahl's culture and religion.

That, is of course the central point of this thread and its good that you keep us on track Nick!  

I would aslo agree with you that some parts of Stahl would have greater outside trade then others.  In fact, there's a city on the map in western Stahl, Forekill, that is nicely located close to a tributary or the river that runs south into Cyrinthmeir.  I would place the more well developed towns on that river, with Forefill at the end of the merchant river route.  I think in my campaign, when I get around to running it, Forekill will be the center of weapons and armor production that Stahl is so famous for.  This developed because Forekill looks to be in a mountainous region (good for minning metals) and is close to a river so it is easy to transport the finished goods into Cyrinthmeir.

In my opinion, since the towns that have probably developed on this river more often have information and opinions of the outside world, specifically Cyritnmeir, these towns would be centers of firm belief in the Three-Becomes-One, since that faith is so strong in Cyrinthmeir.  Moreover, these towns might be the first places where the Imperial Church would be welcomed back in.  Peasants in other places in Stahl might still be Three-Becomes-One believers, but they might not be supporters of the Church, since they have had years to hear horror stories, told by the aristocracy of course, of what the Church really wants from people (i.e.their land, money, and children), and cares nothing for their souls.

[Nick the Nevermet]

Can anyone give a poor guy whose book is in a box on a different continent some brief description of what Savaxen looks like? Scandinavia was an important market of the Hanseatic league, and a lot would depend on a reasonable infrastructure...

ok... Geographically, imagine a rectangle.  The entire eastern edge of this rectangle is the Stahlnish coastline.  In the southeastern corner of the rectangle, there is a penninsula sticking out to the west.  This is Angharad (described in the book as a Welsh-like Celctic culture).  In the southwestern corner of the rectangle, there is the island of Picti (Pict / Scottish / Pict from Pendragon RPG culture).  The remainder of the rectangle (North, Northwestern corner, and due west) contain several islands (2 large, 5 small).  That set of islands is Savaxen.  South of the box is Gelure & Farrenshire.

While the Hanseatic league today is most famous for its sea trade, it needs to be kept in mind that numerous landlocked towns were part of it, and it extended far south into the middle of today's Germany.

ok, so... what is the key thing about the Hanseatic league, as far as a TROS-equivalent goes?  The idea of a network of cities politically allied due to commerce?  Something different or more detailed than that?

[Irmo]

ok... Geographically, imagine a rectangle.  The entire eastern edge of this rectangle is the Stahlnish coastline.  In the southeastern corner of the rectangle, there is a penninsula sticking out to the west.  This is Angharad (described in the book as a Welsh-like Celctic culture).  In the southwestern corner of the rectangle, there is the island of Picti (Pict / Scottish / Pict from Pendragon RPG culture).  The remainder of the rectangle (North, Northwestern corner, and due west) contain several islands (2 large, 5 small).  That set of islands is Savaxen.  South of the box is Gelure & Farrenshire.

*g* Sorry, misunderstanding here....the geographical layout I can get from the map on the website...I was more interested in what it looks like culturally. Specifically, what is the level of organization? Are we talking about losely allied viking raiders or a Denmark, Norway or Sweden style kingdom?

ok, so... what is the key thing about the Hanseatic league, as far as a TROS-equivalent goes?  The idea of a network of cities politically allied due to commerce?  Something different or more detailed than that?

Sort of, yes. The Hanseatic League originally started out as an alliance of merchants, but given how much these merchants contributed to the wealth of their cities, the cities took an early interest in promoting the interests of these merchants. Originally, there were several smaller, more local or regional groups of merchants (such as the Cologne 'Englandfahrer' which had a permanent representation in England as early as 1130) which then, via the intermediary step of bilateral treaties between individual cities, merged to a set of city alliances, which then again merged to the hanseatic league in its final form.

The Hanseatic league had regular meetings, in which treaties were ratified, trade privileges granted, financial or military measures passed, delegates sent out, new members accepted, or members cast out, conflicts between members arbitrated etc... However, in contrast to regional meetings, which usually happened several times a year, these major meetings happened very rarely, for logistic and financial reasons.

Due to the trade volume of the Hanse, foreign lords frequently granted privileges such as special standing of Hanseatic merchants, safety from arbitrary arrest and from a bunch of other laws which could lead to them being stripped of their goods, protection of goods, fixed tarriffs,  and the right to regulate specific trade sectors.

So, if there is to be a parallel in Stahl, it could be anywhere in the range described, whether we're talking about local, regional or national levels, e.g. there could be one league in the southeast, regulating trade with Cyrinthmeir, Zaporozhya and Sarmatov, and one in the west regulating trade with Angarhad, the islands, Farrenshire, Ouestenreich and possibly Gelure and possibly the profitable but risky far trade with Xanar -and of course intra-Stahl trade in their area... at the line of contact there could be constant vying for control, as cities switch allegiances for promises of privileges.... just as one wild idea...