Question About Demons Confering Abilities.

[jburneko]

This question is prompted by Mind Control Redux thread but since this isn't specifically about mind control I thought I'd put it in its own thread.  There were some examples in that thread that have (once again) totally screwed with my understanding of how abilities confer on to others and what a User is.

The rulebook seems to make it pretty clear that at the outset the User of an Ability must be stated and CAN NOT CHANGE.  Now, I assumed that meant that the User of an ability was only one of two entities, the Demon or The Sorcerer The Demon is Bound To and that was set in stone.

However, the Mind Control thread was talking about Demon's confering abilities onto people who not only aren't bound to the demon but might not even be Sorcerers to begin with.

So is the idea this: The User is either the Demon or Someone Else and that Someone Else USUALLY is the Sorcerer the Demon is Bound To?

That is if a Demon's Armor ability confers to Sorcerer A could that Demon, if it gets rebelous, suddenly decide to confer its Armor ability to Sorcerer A's enemy?  But the Demon couldn't suddenly become the User itself because we've already decided that the User isn't the Demon?

Jesse

[Mike Holmes]

I'd replace USUALLY with OFTEN, but not at all necessarily. I think you can define any user of group of users you like. That is, it could be any combination or exclusion of any entities, demons, sorcerers, normals, whatever, including particular people or categories.

For example, a power might be defined as having a user of "whoever picks it up" for a sword. Makes lots of sense. Note that, unlike a normal sword, however, the demonic one can turn the power off even if it's not the user (the circuit breaker analogy). Interestingly, I'd probably allow the sword object demon to be used as a sword in terms of combat (just as I'd allow a person with enough strength to use another human as a bludgeon).

Does that simplify things?

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Boy, it's always something!

All right, here's the dope on conferring.

Foundation point: The following options 1 vs. 2 must be chosen for the ability when it's created.

Option 1: the demon's ability confers to itself. This the easy one, right? The demon is the NPC, the NPC has an ability, and the GM plays the NPC and says when he/she/it points-and-shoots.

Option 2: the demon's ability confers to someone else. Screeching halt, to regard several points of difficulty.

2a) the user flicks the light switch, the demon crouches downstairs at the circuit breaker. Most people get this part, although the implications for GM-player interactions about the ability's use suddenly explode into many interesting possible situations in play.

2b) During play, use to use, confer-ence to confer-ence, the user can be anyone of the demon's choosing. Say it's an Object demon, a sword, which confers Travel to its wielder such that he or she can run up and down walls and leap real far. The demon can give this ability to anyone it wants, in range.

Jesse, you seem to be mixing up (2b) with the Foundation point. They're not the same things.

2c) Exceptions to (2b): (i) a Parasite typically confers the abilities to its host, (ii) a Possessor or a Passer typically confers the abilities to itself. But these are conceptual trends, not rock-solid rules.

Does any of this help? Jesse, where are the gaps and difficulties?

Can everyone see why the user of Boost is the demon? The Boosted person is the target, not the user.

Best,
Ron

[jburneko]

Perfectly clear.  2b was where my main confusion was with 2c being a niggling doubt in the back of my head.  Suddenly, Covens make a LOT more sense to me.  All this time I've been thinking, "What use is a coven if only the main dude can possibily benefit from all this?  I see the advantage for the main dude but what's in it for the rest of them?"

So here's one more point of clearification.  Let's say I have a conven of 5 Sorcerer's who are obsessed with imortality.  So they summon up this scary multicolor orb thing that just sits in the main chamber of their super secret Sorcerer sanctuary.  This thing's only ability is Vitality.

Things I get:

1) The orb is Bound ONLY to the head Sorcerer dude.

2) The Orb can confer it's Vitality ability to any one of the coven members (or indeed anyone else) it wants.

Question: What if the Orb wanted to confer Vitality upon all 5 conven members at once?  Could it do that with just one Vitality ability or would it actually have to have Vitality taken 5 times thus jacking up its Power score?

Thanks again.

Jesse

[Jeffrey Straszheim]

Jesse,

Apropos your orb, the bigger problem is range.  How does the vitality confer when they are far from the orb?  The demon ability ranged doesn't really have the scope to help.

However, I think you get the exact effect you want with spawn.  You can see how, I'm sure.

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Add Perception (yes, again) to the Ranged Vitality*, first and foremost. Arguably, Mark might get into the mix as well to "cement" the Perception.

As for the simultaneous issue, I'm afraid I'd be a bit of a hard-ass and force the demon to split its Power among the recipients.

Best,
Ron

* I know, Ranged is only listed as applicable to Special Damage, Hold, and Hop, but I think this isn't much of a stretch.

[jburneko]

Ah, splitting the Power is a good idea.  As for Ranged, I get it but: Grrr, Nash, Bark, Bark about the freaking TEXT again.  I swear sometimes I think about writing a mini-supplement called: Sorcerer Unbound (heh) a Rules Companion.

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Jesse,

Well, quit just thinking about it and write it. I'll help you find an illustrator and layout guy, and then you can sell it.

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

One day Jesse...we will have ground him down, and if for no other reason than to get us to finally shut-up about it he will take the plunge...

Until then, i'm a man of infinite patience...as least I am when *I* hold the needle...poke...poke   ;-)

[Mike Holmes]

Until then, i'm a man of infinite patience...as least I am when *I* hold the needle...poke...poke   ;-)

Hey, Ralph, how's the Robots comin' along?

:-)

Mike

[Lxndr]

Suddenly, Covens make a LOT more sense to me.  All this time I've been thinking, "What use is a coven if only the main dude can possibily benefit from all this?  I see the advantage for the main dude but what's in it for the rest of them?"

I always thought Covens were people helping EACH OTHER.  So it's not just main dude with a bunch of sorcerous followers.  It's "a bunch of people who, along with anything else they might be doing for each other, help each other contact/summon/bind demons."  Sure, there's probably a pecking order, and differing levels of ability, but they're essentially co-ops.

[Ron Edwards]

".... group who meets to invoke supernatural forces."

Are the forces they try to invoke the same thing as sorcerous rituals? Could be yes, could be no.

Is anyone in the coven have any Lore besides the player-character? Could be yes, could be no.

Is the player-character in a (or the) position of authority in the coven? Could be yes, could be no.

... and so on.

Alexander, I'm seein' a little bit of that Sorcerer Rorschach again. What you read when you see "coven" is a subset of what it could indicate.

Best,
Ron

[Lxndr]

Well, yeah.  Sorry about that.  :)
Though the quote I was responding to also involved a minor subset (some unidentified "main dude" who was somehow at an advantage; apparently, the only one with bound demons, by later posts of his).
I'll try and slam my Rorschach against the wall a few times until it breaks apart.