Any Swordsman on this list? SCA? etc?

[zeke023]

I started doing SCA heavy weapons combat about a year ago.  One of the reasons I was so impressed with TROS was the real research that they did into actual historic fighting - and how similar their game mechanics were to what I do every wednesday night.

I'm not that much of a historian, and there's another thread discussing this from a research perspective.  I'm curious if there are any other people who actually fight who can comment on their likes and dislikes of the game mechanics according to their actual fighting experience.

I'd be especially interested in talking to someone trained in Eastern sword styles who plays TROS - because I'm trying to adapt a katana style for my own game.

[Salamander]

My instructor is teaching us about the German School of Fence. (name dropping time) Lichtenauer, Talhoffer, Lekeuchner, I.33 and so on with all the neeto Italian stuff thrown in to make it interesting, like Liberi.

[zeke023]

My instructor is teaching us about the German School of Fence. (name dropping time) Lichtenauer, Talhoffer, Lekeuchner, I.33 and so on with all the neeto Italian stuff thrown in to make it interesting, like Liberi.

Dude, that's awesome.  It's a different game that what I do.  I fight mostly with broadswords and weapons a centruy or more earlier than what you describe.  However, that's cool because you're going to have a perspective that I don't - which is what I was looking for when I started this thread.  

So please enlighten me with your experience!  How do you compare the TROS mechanics with you own fighting expereince?

[Lance D. Allen]

Fellow SCAdian here. I fight two-handed bastard sword, though of course this weapon is most accurately a hand-and-a-half sword.

And yes, there are quite a few actual swordsmen on this forum. Jake Norwood not only researched western european martial arts, but he is a licensed practitioner in the ARMA.

You may notice a slight amount of condescension toward the SCA's style, in general, as what we do is more of a sport than a martial art. It is deserved, however, so please do not take offense. As what we do has an entirely different focus from serious martial arts organizations such as the ARMA, the general organization lacks much of the technique practiced in the middle ages. I know, however, that individual practitioners within the SCA take things much more seriously, so it would be unfair to say that the SCA lacks serious martial artists, and Jake is always quick to acknowledge this.

As for the focus, most of the swordsmen here are of a western style, but I believe we've a couple who are in kenjutsu, kendo and/or similar styles. Go hit up the thread about real-world swordsmanship and TRoS for some interesting discussion.

[Bankuei]

Hi Zeke,

No katanas here, but I study a rather obscure art known as pentjak silat.  It moves nothing like kenjitsu or japanese arts, but may be of interest to you anyway.

1)Weapons range from knives to a one-handed 3 foot blade(pendang)

2) The pedang is 1 edged, dull side is a heavy spine for parrying and bracing your arm, hand or shoulder against to support a strike

3) At distance, tip is kept pointed towards foe, moving as a distraction/threat

4) At close, the blade is almost always kept directly against the body or arm to support strikes and allow swordfighting at incredibly close ranges

5) 2 types of cuts are used:  snappy chops(supported and "flung" off the arm, shoulder or body) and long drawing cuts across the enemy("washing the body")

6) Primary targets are the weapon arm and legs for a disable before finishing

7) Unlike the kendo I've seen, silat is about getting in, and cutting, cutting, and keep cutting until you're sure your opponent isn't a threat(or one of his buddies becomes a more immediate threat).

Chris

[Salamander]

I have heard that many people do look down on the SCA, but I think that they have the rules they do in order to meet the goal of the SCA, to have fun whilst beating on your fellow man. That way after the fight, you can still go have beer with buddy afterwards...

Granted that's not my thing, but I'm not gonna knock somebody cause they have fun doing it.

[Salamander]

Dude, that's awesome.  It's a different game that what I do.  I fight mostly with broadswords and weapons a centruy or more earlier than what you describe.  However, that's cool because you're going to have a perspective that I don't - which is what I was looking for when I started this thread.  

So please enlighten me with your experience!  How do you compare the TROS mechanics with you own fighting expereince?

I actually have to admit that it was the game that turned me on to the Sword Academy. Jake and I both learn roughly the same schools but he can seriously kick my ass, from what I can tell (for now). A few others here can as well I bet.

From what I can tell, Jake did a real good job with the game. I have found it really helps me to have an idea of what is really going on in a fight. It allows one to use the tactics and tricks learned in Fecht Schule and apply them in novel and evil ways during play. I am expecting my wife will clean up once she gets familiar with the rules of TRoS. She comes to fence with me as well. She can be downright viscious when she gets into it. Milan just stands back and laughs when she starts to bounce from foot to foot...

[Eamon Voss]

I've done quite a bit of kali, which is a martial art from the southern Philipinnes.  Started with stick, then moved onto double stick, stick and dagger, then learned how to use those techniques with swords, knives and chains.  Footwork is kind of like renaissance fencing, and the terminology used for techniques is a pastiche of the local tongue, and old Spanish and Italian terms.  It is also very, very loosely related to pentdjak silat, and in fact the full name is kali silat.

Anyway, with weapons longer than knives it is predominantly a slashing style.  So you have tons of different cuts coming from different angles.  Control of these angles and cross-relating them with the footwork is key in kali (well, it is key in other styles as well).  Empty handed techniques are considered the advanced stuff, since in the Philipinnes everyone used to carry something.

These days it is pretty popular, but I remember the good, old days when it wasn't.  Nothing was more fun than having a kendoka get embarressed because you knew how to step off the line and punish him in the process.  Or showing an aikidoka a thing or too about redirection.  Ahhh.... reckless youth!

The name 'kali' comes from a bastardization of the word 'kris', which is that wavy bladed sword weapon you sometimes see.

Kali has some interesting historical notes to it:

The famed explorer, Magellan, was killed by Lapu Lapu, a chieftain and swordsman who led the defense of the coastland against the rather bloodthirsty spaniards.  Or at least that is how the Filipinos will tell it to you.  Lapu Lapu is regarded by most Filipinos as being the real national hero of the land.

When the Spaniards invaded the Philipinne islands, areas under their domination had restricted weapons laws punishable by death.  So the Filipinos went to batons, or sticks.  Some of them are nicely heavy and would smash through Spanish armor just like a mass weapon is supposed to do.  Which was good, because Filipinne steel sucked, in fact, quality swords sold by Arab traders were prized. Sadly, my favorite practice weapon, a 'heavy stick' shaped like a sword broke a couple of years ago.

Anyway, while in kali there are technically no forms, you do have sinulog, which are martial dances in which warriors hid their fighting moves.  Sort of like the Okinawans, but much better documented and preserved.

Moroland was never quite conquered by the Spaniards.  It took the Americans to do that, and they needed to get better guns to do it!  

Kalista and other eskrimadors fought against the Japanese in WWII.  They trained with and fought with Americans in the jungles and cities.  The Americans tried to teach the Filipinos the bayonet, but they insisted on their heavy slashing blades.  In any case, the Alamo Scouts and company only had good things to say about their Filipino mates, and reunions between Filipino and American vets of the war occur every year.  

I've seen pictures of real bloody stick fighting matches taken in the 1970s in Hawaii and California.  These have been replaced by the efforts of the notable Dog Brothers.  If I had a budget and time and a wish, I would do a John Clements seminar for a week, then go get my ass beat by the Dog Brothers the next week.

Kali, Arnis, and Escrima are pretty much names for the same family of fighting styles, and explaning the differences always sounds silly when you try and explain it to others.  There are tons of family styles in these martial arts, and the differences between styles are huge.  Two general constants is that training starts with a stick or two, and empty-hand techniques are considered the advanced stuff.

I like the stuff because it has roots in both the East and the West.

[Jake Norwood]

Ooh! Ooh! ME memememememe! I'm a swordsman. And a ninja. Ninja's are awesome....

Seriously, though, part of why I'm so scarce lately is I'm training for my Prize-playing for the rank of Senior Free Scholar (it's a big deal), which is going down this coming weekend in New York. Wish me luck.

Jake

[Salamander]

Ooh! Ooh! ME memememememe! I'm a swordsman. And a ninja. Ninja's are awesome....

Seriously, though, part of why I'm so scarce lately is I'm training for my Prize-playing for the rank of Senior Free Scholar (it's a big deal), which is going down this coming weekend in New York. Wish me luck.

Jake

.... I did already... I also told Milan to say "hi" in his special way...
;)

[Valamir]

I personally am rather fond of the Chicago-land style martial art, first practiced on the south side circa 1920.

It usually begins with an introductionary "hey youze guyz...reach for the sky"

And typically ends with the "rata-tat-tat" finishing move of a drum full of .45 rounds.

Lead trumps steel 9 times in 10 ;-)

[Salamander]

I personally am rather fond of the Chicago-land style martial art, first practiced on the south side circa 1920.

It usually begins with an introductionary "hey youze guyz...reach for the sky"

And typically ends with the "rata-tat-tat" finishing move of a drum full of .45 rounds.

Lead trumps steel 9 times in 10 ;-)

*groan*

Yeah, did that already... I've used the stuff ten years back you are just now seeing in the movies. And lead trumps steal 0 times out of ten. Tactical ops are a smart man's game, why do you think the Average Spec-Ops guy has a 130 IQ? It's not the weapon, it how it's used.

Here's a link to a game more along the lines of that idea. It's called Millenium's End. I believe Darth Tang uses the missile weapons rules from there and the melee rules from here in his Fading Suns campaign.

//www.millenniumsend.com

[Valamir]

Of course you're right.  After all we did just invade Iraq with an army of swordsmen.  And I did recently hear that the NYPD was planning on replacing officer's service automatics with rapiers except that they were in a big debate with the cut and thrust guys over which was more effective.

My comment was meant as a bit of humor, but you might want to consider that your average spec ops guy *IS* the 1 time in ten exception rather than the rule.

[Salamander]

Valamir,
Now those are reflexes.

I was editing to add some info for you on the end, but did not change the body of the text.

Sorry, I did not take the humour aspect of it. A lot of people have been making fun of my martial art recently and having been one of the guys who has used firearms, ALOT, I begged to differ. As for that charming little comment, I feel that this board is not the time, nor is it the place.

[Bankuei]

Hi guys,

Sigh...even though this is a friendly miscommunication, it also points directly to the general problem with discussing combat.  Folks can talk about what works, over and over, but until it sees (bloody) usage, one never knows for sure.  

This has cropped up more than a few times in various ROS threads, usually either in the East vs. West stuff or the "What really works" kind of stuff.  Sadly enough, most of it becomes a big ego pissing contest about my theorhetical fighting is better than your theorhetical fighting, which, of course, can only be proved in action.

What might be of more use to explore, would be to look at what methodology each particular school or style uses to determine "what is combat effective", in this day and age, considering that most of these weapons are no longer a mainstay of warfare.

For instance, I'm aware that many of the ARMA type folks are using traditional manuals and lots of sparring, but I'm not aware of the details or much else.  For myself, my particular style comes from a screwed up 3rd world country where most people just have knives and machetes and use them on each other far too frequently, so I'm taking as a matter of faith the "effectiveness" of such methods.  I'm interested to see what criteria folks are using here.

Chris