Color based RPG (feedback requested)

[Eric Kimball]

My group has just finish work on a RPG that uses colors instead of numbers to define characters.  In a nutshell each color is associated with a stat Red: Vigor, Green: Awareness etc.  To make a character a person put a number of colored stickers on dice the more of a particular color on a die the more the character has that attribute.

At this point I would like to get some informed feed back on the game and any flaws that people could see with the system:

http://www.arrogantgames.com/action_spectra/index.html

Also any comments on they layout of the game or website would be very helpful.  Thanks for you time.

[Eric Kimball]

If you just want to download the game and not look at the websites (which I do need help on so I do not encourage this) go here:

http://www.arrogantgames.com/action_spectra/spectra_downloads.html

Thanks again.

[Mike Holmes]

The game seems straightforward enough. Do you have it in playtesting yet?

I'm not a layout guru, but someone here might be able to comment on your bleeds which for some reason strike me as problematic.

There is a game here in development called Crux that has a number of similarities. You might want to take a look: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6426

Mike

[Eric Kimball]

We have done a little in house play-testing, with mixed results.  Some players love the quickness and ease of the system.  Other players go in to anaphylactic shock at the concept of a game with no real numbers.  I wanted to get some outside opinions on the system before starting a blind play-testing program.

The basic I wanted to get feed back on was the validity of using colors instead of numbers, the viability of using customized dice and of course if there is any glaring errors in the game.

We are working on a space western adventure (like firefly) for the game.  Once the basics of that are done I think I will advertised of play-testers.

Crux is depressingly similar to Action Spectra.  A lot of concepts they advance are one we considered in making our game.  The really weird thing is how similar our use of colors is, we must have taped the same vein in the collective unconscious.  I obviously think Action Spectra is better than Crux for reason of speed and simplicity and we are a little futher along in the development process.  That being said it is a good looking game and I am intersted to see where they go with the idea.

[Jared A. Sorensen]

I think the PDF would benefit from less color. It's...kinda garish, and the illos don't really do anything but take up space. Some nice, clean B&W layout, imaginative use of space and header fonts...that would help immensely.

- J

[Eric Kimball]

I have gotten some comments on the colors being too bright.  I think that is an artifact of my screen having muted colors.  I am taking all the colors down a notch or two so that they are not so bright.  I am not, however, going to make a game about colors, B&W.

Do you have any specific suggestion on font or use of space where I could do things better?

[taalyn]

Hi Eric,

I found the explanations confusing. You need examples - lots. Not only do they clarify points that can be confusing, they ease the reader into using a very unique system. I found color bars, for instance, really interesting, but the explanations of how they work was split up all over.

Or maybe I'm just stupid.

I really like the idea that objects have pips of colors (I've been doing something similar in Crux - a book might have R2G3, the 2 red motes (= your pips) providing the physical damage it could take, and the green being the quality of information it contains).

The way the vitality bar works is severly broken. You give Achilles a vitality bar of GGGG. But if I roll 1 green, he's screwed, as I get to remove the entire set if I have G in my yield. That really does not seem right at all. It's actually easier to kill Achilles than a normal guy! I would change that, and simply have the color remove one corrsponding pip. I would also lose the adjacency rule.

Of course, if you're going for deadly, I guess it's good, but the Achilles thing is still messed up, I say. I do like the lose a die and refresh thing, though.

Under Hurting, on page 14, you mention Sluggo's extra Yellow not affecting Rocky - what extra Yellow? His yield was RRO.

You too have gone for the conflicts of all sorts - notably the Battle of Wits. Crux has this - amber conflict = social sparring, insults, slam poetry, for example, in contrast to red conflict - standard brawling of various sorts. I like it, obviously.

Other than those, my only other comment at the moment is that you should pick one, maybe 2, title fonts and use them exclusively, and make sure they're legible. The font that you use on pg. 30, for example, for the word GM at the top of the page, is bad. I thought it said GIII, and thought to myself, what the heck is a GIII? It's just not legible. SInce you're going for action/adventure show theme, I'd pick something similar to fonts used in titles for shows like Xena or Adventure Inc. or something.

Aidan

[Eric Kimball]

Thanks Aidan

1) You are right about the color bars.  They are a little fractured.  It is a hard game to write when you get to the colors since you want to explain everything first.  I am working on some more examples as we speak.

2) Colors give you great power to concisely describe attributes of object.  Keep in mind that there are two types of attributes that objects have.  The attributes the object gives to the user and the attributes that the object has its self.  No one would think a book makes you stronger but by giving the book a strength attribute it can get confusing.  

In Essential Spectra we ignore the attributes that object have themselves giving the GM a generic chart for the strength of the object and then any colors listed for an object are ones it gives the player.

3) Now for the vitality bar.  There has been a long discussion on that concept and we are waiting for feedback from playtester to decide it’s fate.  Originally there was no vitality bar and a player just lost dice when hurt.  This was a little to deadly so we added the vitality bar to buffer the damage, but I am not completely satisfied with it.

Now as for Achilles the vitality bar works fine as far as I am concerned.  If you remember the story Achilles was invulnerable to all damage until his heal was pierce at which time he dropped dead instantly.  If you pierced my heal I would not drop dead.  Here is the difference reflected in the vitality bar some on with a lot of one color it mean you have to hit them just right to down them.  Some one with multiple colors can be hurt easily but do not crumble at one hit.  Vitality bar describes the nature of the person not his toughness.  Toughness is handled by armor pips.

4) Hurting typo fixed, thanks.

5)Generic conflict is another good idea that we seem to have shared.  I like how you did it.

6) I think that we are going to cut down on the number of fonts on the next layout of the game.

Thanks for all the great comments.  It was really helpful.

[taalyn]

Thanks Aidan

1) You are right about the color bars.  They are a little fractured.  It is a hard game to write when you get to the colors since you want to explain everything first.  I am working on some more examples as we speak.

Don't I know! Particularly with mechanics, where you kind of need to understand it all to understand each separate piece. I'm going to do an overview example for Crux, and then get into details - you might try the same thing.

2) Colors give you great power to concisely describe attributes of object.  Keep in mind that there are two types of attributes that objects have.  The attributes the object gives to the user and the attributes that the object has its self.  No one would think a book makes you stronger but by giving the book a strength attribute it can get confusing.  

I see the difference, and it's the one thing I sto...borrowed from AS. Hues and Shades - basically a non-numerical bonus or penalty for using exceptional or terrible objects, or being near certain kinds of people. Some people just piss you off, for no apparent reason - they have Amber Shades. Any other motes of color associated with an object describe simply it's own inherent qualities, only an issue for important stuff, generally.

3) Now for the vitality bar.  There has been a long discussion on that concept and we are waiting for feedback from playtester to decide it's fate.  Originally there was no vitality bar and a player just lost dice when hurt.  This was a little to deadly so we added the vitality bar to buffer the damage, but I am not completely satisfied with it.

Now as for Achilles the vitality bar works fine as far as I am concerned.  If you remember the story Achilles was invulnerable to all damage until his heal was pierce at which time he dropped dead instantly.  If you pierced my heal I would not drop dead.  Here is the difference reflected in the vitality bar some on with a lot of one color it mean you have to hit them just right to down them.  Some one with multiple colors can be hurt easily but do not crumble at one hit.  Vitality bar describes the nature of the person not his toughness.  Toughness is handled by armor pips.

On the vitality bar in general - don't get me wrong - I LIKE it. The issue is that if I only have 2 dice as a normal guy, it doesn't take much to put me out of the game. I like deadly combat (i.e. combat that doesn't happen a lot because it's too dangerous) and think that's totally appropriate, but if you don't provide some way to ameliorate the condition, some way to avoid excellent rolls that kill me right out, that sucks, and now I can't play until I make a new character.

You do have armor, so maybe it looks worse than it actually is. I have another thought on this - first, do all normal humans general keep the RRY  vitbar throughout the game? If so, awesome (I dislike games that give you more hitpoints as you get more experienced), if not, why? What's the reasoning?

What might make it clearer how deadly or not the system is, is to provide an example of combat (and of battle of wits too!).

On Achilles - I see what you're going for now. But throw this in - what if he get's hit with a grenade. What does it do? Is he perfectly fine except for where shrapnel removed his heel, and thus dead? Is there a chance hs heel doesn't get struck? Would boots help?

This is actually another comment I have - how many colors should the easy/average/difficult task have? Is it always a single color that the player needs? Your examples show some with 2 colors - is that fairly difficult? I'm guessing that if the average player only has 2-3 dice, then yeah, that is difficult. I'm not saying that this needs to be "fixed" - just that I'm curious. There are plenty of ways a character can ensure success , with pips of various kinds and such, but with only two dice, your count scale is weird. At most I could get 2 count (3 if I'm an average hero), but the awesome count results require 5 or more - these #s are too high, I think, unless a player has LOTS of pips hanging around, which seems unlikely.

Mostly, these are just thoughts I had - feel free to ignore them.

5)Generic conflict is another good idea that we seem to have shared.  I like how you did it.

The hard part is figuring out what artistic conflict is, or spiritual conflict, or dexterity conflict...

6) I think that we are going to cut down on the number of fonts on the next layout of the game.

Good plan. I say pick one distinctive font for everything.

No offense intended, but the game is too cool for a name like ActionSpectra. It just sounds ... cheesy. Sorry if that offends, I'm just trying to be helpful - any success you get will only help me in the long run, see, so I wan't you guys to do well. Might I suggest 'Chroma'?

There were other typos I noticed (somewhere in there you have 'coup' for 'coupe', for example). I'm happy to edit, if you'd like.

Aidan

[Eric Kimball]

This is actually another comment I have - how many colors should the easy/average/difficult task have? Is it always a single color that the player needs? Your examples show some with 2 colors - is that fairly difficult?

As for the count all a player needs to succeed in almost all tasks is a single success.  Extra successes are useful to prevent an opponent from stopping the actions.  In the generic count chart goes :

  1    Great
  2     Phenomenal
  3     Unbelievable
  4     Super/Inhuman
  5+  Should have been impossible

So a single success is more than enough for any action.  The only time the gm should as for something beyond a single success is when the player is trying something way beyond the normal scope of human ability.

No offense intended, but the game is too cool for a name like ActionSpectra. It just sounds ... cheesy. Sorry if that offends, I'm just trying to be helpful - any success you get will only help me in the long run, see, so I wan't you guys to do well. Might I suggest 'Chroma'?

You have no idea what a can of worms you opened here.  We have had the worst time naming the game.  The original name we had was "spectrum" but that was the name of another game company and a multivitamin.  So then we spent about a 2 week arguing over name.  Each name that one of us came up with be rejected by the other person.  I did suggest "chroma" but Rob did not like it. Eventually we settled on "Action Spectra" unfortunately that name was a little to close to the name "Action!" another generic system.  Out of respect for the makers of "Action!" I went though and change the name of the game to "Essential Spectra".  So now we have the name "Essential Spectra" and even though it is not a great name I think we will have to stick with it for the time being.

[Thomas Tamblyn]

We have had the worst time naming the game...

How about "Palette" or some variant thereof? Essential palette?

No real contribution to the main thrust of the thread here, but it sprung to mind and I think its pretty nice.

[Mike Holmes]

How about just "Color". Easy to remember, punchy, unique, straghtforwardly evocative.

Mike

[simon_hibbs]

Off topic, but I couldn't stp myself...

Now as for Achilles the vitality bar works fine as far as I am concerned.  If you remember the story Achilles was invulnerable to all damage until his heal was pierce at which time he dropped dead instantly.  If you pierced my heal I would not drop dead.

Achiles was no more or less vulnerable in his heel than you or I. It's just that the rest of him was invulnerable.

If you were alive 3000 years ago and someone shot a ruddy great arrow through your foot, you'd almost certainly die from shock, blood loss or infection. So it was for Achiles.


Simon Hibbs

[Mike Holmes]

So it was for Achiles.

I think the poison on the arrow also probably had something to do with it.

Achilles was dipped by his mother into the River Styx to make his body impervious to harm. But she held him by the heel, which did not get the benefit. Hence the nifty shot by Paris (assisted by Apollo, of course) that hit the heel and injected the poison to kill him.

Brad Pitt plays Achilles in the upcoming film Troy.

Mike

[Eric Kimball]

Fair enough.  Perhaps Achilles is a bad example.  An all Green vitality bar is some entity that has a fatal week spot that if hit put them down.  A soft underbelly or essential organ that if attack would lead to it downfall.  Achilles would probably have a vitality of RRYGGGG, making him beyond human.

Now I have a lot of question about the vitality bar system.  It is the most complicated part of a relatively simple game.  I have half a mind to chuck it and go with a standard hit point system instead.  Any comment one way or the other?

As for changing the name of the game again, I do not think it would be a good idea at this point.  We are trying to build recognition of the game and if we keep on switching the title it is just going to cause confusion.  Thanks for the suggestion though.