Question about Combat

[Franklin11Hour]

Ok I am asking more questions (thanks for any help!)... Is what I am about to say the right way to do combat?

Berac:  ST of 6  TO of 4 Combat Pool of 9
Terar:   ST of 7 TO of 3 Combat Pool of 9

Berac has Aggressive stance (+2 to CP attack -2 to CP defensive)
Terar:  Neutral stance, no +/-

Berac has for attack a Combat Pool of x+2
Terar has neither + or - for Combat Pool due to being neutral stance.

Berac has initiative.

Berac uses 5+2 = 7 dice to attack.
Terar uses 6 dice to defend.

Berac gets 5 successes
Terar gets 6 successes.  Combat goes to Terar.

Terar rolls 4-2 dice to attack and gets 2 successes
Berac uses 3 dice  and gets full 3 successes.  Berac then successfully defends.

Next Combat Round...
Berac has combat round again (since he succeeds in defending himself).
Terar defends.

Both sides have neutral stance so neither + or -

Berac rolls 5 dice to attack.
Terar rolls 4 dice to defend.

Berac gets 4 successes
Terar gets only 1 success...Terar is hit.

A margin of 4-1 equals 3 in favor of Berac over Terar.

Berac had aimed at region VII on Terar.  Berac's player rolls a 2, hitting the Forearm.  Terar has no armor in that area so all that is subtracted is the TO for Terar which is 3.  Berar uses a Bastard Sword which is for damage STR for Berac (which is 6).  Sooo.... 3 + 6 equals 9.  Terar's toughness is 3 so then that goes back down to 6?  

So does that mean, though the outcome is a 6 that is still a Level 5???   Or am I making this way more complicated than it really is???  Which is of course a nasty wound?  Thanks!

[Overdrive]

Terar rolls 4-2 dice to attack and gets 2 successes
Berac uses 3 dice  and gets full 3 successes.  Berac then successfully defends.

I guess at this point either you or me got confused with the names :) But anyway, Terar got the initiative by succesfully defending, and since it's the second exchange, a good idea is to attack with all remaining dice (Terar should have 3 left). Berac should probably defend with all his dice, that is 4. Remember that stances only apply for the first exchange.

Greater than level 5 wound is a level 5 wound. Perhaps you could have the excess damage go to another body part if a limb was hit..

[Jake Norwood]

Yeah, anything over a lvl 5 is just a lvl 5. I have taken off both legs for a lvl 10 once, though.

Question--

Why did Terar lose 2 dice in the passage overdrive mentions? He should have had 3 dice, because he used 6 of 9 in his defense.

Jake

[Valamir]

Berac has Aggressive stance (+2 to CP attack -2 to CP defensive)
Terar:  Neutral stance, no +/-

Note the +2 -2 for stance ONLY applies to the exchange where the white die red die is dropped.  With an aggressive stance Berac will get +2 if he drops the red die and -2 if he drops the white.  On future exchanges the dice are not dropped (unless there is a break in the action as with a Full Evasion) and so there is no more modifier from Stance.

Berac has initiative.

Presumeably Berac has initiative because after Stance was declared, Berac dropped Red and Terar dropped white, correct?

Berac uses 5+2 = 7 dice to attack.
Terar uses 6 dice to defend

So Berac should have 4 dice left and Terar should have 3.

Berac gets 5 successes
Terar gets 6 successes.  Combat goes to Terar

Right, Terar wins the exchange.  Assuming all Terar did was parry, then the only effect of his extra success was to win the initiative.

Terar rolls 4-2 dice to attack and gets 2 successes

This doesn't track.  Terar should only have 3 dice left having started with 9 and defended with 6.  Also, where does the -2 come from.  Is Terar declaring a move that has an activation cost?

Berac uses 3 dice  and gets full 3 successes.  Berac then successfully defends.

Berac has 4 dice left in his pool.  Since there is zero advantage to carrying dice over to the new round, he should use all 4, not just 3.

(did you perhaps get the pools backwards in your example, giving Berac 3 and Terar 4 when it should have been the other way around?)

Next Combat Round...
Berac has combat round again (since he succeeds in defending himself).
Terar defends.

Right, forgetting that the wrong number of dice were rolled and continueing with the example as if Berac did get more successes anyway, he won the exchange and has the initiative for the first exchange of the 2nd round.

Both sides have neutral stance so neither + or -

Neither side has any stance.  Since one of the combatants already has Initiative no red/white dice are dropped (red/white dice are only dropped when neither combatant has initiative...to determine who takes it...and Stance is only declared in rounds where the dice are dropped).

Berac rolls 5 dice to attack.
Terar rolls 4 dice to defend.

Your example is a shining example of why defending with fewer dice than your opponent attacks with is VERY dangerous to an underarmored man.  If Terar were in full plate this might be an acceptable risk, but I'd never parry a 5 die attack with 4 dice if I had dice to spare.  I'd use at least six if not seven.  If I were feeling ballsy I might try 6 plus a Counter, leaving me with 1 die.  If it worked and I defended Berac's 4 successes I'd have 5 dice to attack his 4 with in the second exchange.  

Berac gets 4 successes
Terar gets only 1 success...Terar is hit.

A margin of 4-1 equals 3 in favor of Berac over Terar.

Correct.

Berac had aimed at region VII on Terar.  Berac's player rolls a 2, hitting the Forearm.  Terar has no armor in that area so all that is subtracted is the TO for Terar which is 3.  Berar uses a Bastard Sword which is for damage STR for Berac (which is 6).  Sooo.... 3 + 6 equals 9.  Terar's toughness is 3 so then that goes back down to 6?  

So does that mean, though the outcome is a 6 that is still a Level 5???   Or am I making this way more complicated than it really is???  Which is of course a nasty wound?  Thanks!

The highest wound is indeed Level 5...I don't have the chart in front of me, but that should be something along the lines of "arm removed at the elbow"...massive shock and pain and bloodloss.

Terar is a character of "unfortuneate proportions".  REALLY high strength with rather low Toughness is a dangerous combination for an under armored man.

[Franklin11Hour]

Instead of using my own examples, I will then use the examples from [shr 79-80.

Geralt:  ST 5 TO 4 CO 15
Felix:  ST 6 TO 5 CP 12

In the initative phase of the first round...
Geralt tosses out a white dice
Felix tosses out a red dice

Geralt has an Agressive Stance so has +2 to CP Attacking moves/-2 to CP for Defensive moves during the first round only.

Felix has a Neutral Stance so has neither any plus or minus.  

In the first round, dice are thrown both times and it is only in this phase that the +s and -s from the stance is used.  In Geralt's case, in using an Agressive Stance, when he attacks he has the +2 but when he defends the rest of his CP dice is subtracted -2 from the agressive stance.  Felix has no addition or subtraction so he flows with his normal CP of 12.  Either way, both sides successfully parried so there was no real combat damage during the first round.  

Second round, Felix begins with initiative (since he parried successfully the second half of the last round?...is that right?).

Felix uses 7 dice striking IV region.  
Geralt uses 9 dice.

Felix gets 4 successes
Geralt gets 5 successes...Geralt is successful in parrying.

Geralt (who has initiative now in this second round) attacks region IV and uses remaining 6 dice.  Felix uses his last 5 dice.  Geralt has 5 successes, Felix has 1 success.  The margin is 4, for Geralt.  

Geralt's combat information is his weapon being ST +1.  So...                  5 (for ST) + 1 + 4 (from margin)=10.  Then there is a subtraction from Felix's TO which is 5.  So the final damage level is 5.  

Is that right?

[Ashren Va'Hale]

here's what I do, if the player is in an aggressive stance and throws red then I stick two dice into the bowl holding his pool. Math is done. He can now dispense with those dice as he wants. once pools refresh then I take those two dice out and the fun continues. This is a great reason for using the bowls... they really help.

[Franklin11Hour]

So for the first round is where the stance is important.  It is in that round that I either add two dice that can be used for combat or subtract two dice from the bowl to be used with defense then?  Not sure how that would work?  

Then with the next round if neither side did damage or at least two much damage...the dice count of CP for both parties fighting is normal?  

Let us say that in the first round one side does the following damage to the second party fighting:

Zone IV Chest/Cross-cut.  BL: 2  Shock:  4  Pain 5- WP.  How would that damage then transfer to the next full round (of both parties attacking/defending).  When it says BL that means Blood Lose 2 I am suppose 1st) add that BL to any other BL in the next few rounds as long as combat occurs as long as it is not in the same section.  2nd, roll EN vs. BL. So does that mean I subtract 2 from the wounded character's EN?  If the roll fails, I subtract 1 point from that character's HL?

When it says Shock 4, that means 4 dice are subtracted from all dice pools (CP and Magic Pool and Missile Pool etc.).  If the Shock rate is more, let's say its 10, and that is more than the dice in the CP at that appointed time, whatever extra points from that specific round is then taken off from the next round.  So if I have 8 CPs in that round and I have to subtract 10.  I then have no dice left for that round, and then the next round the extra 2 are subtracted from the 8 that next round.

The Pain points are subtracted every round from the CP no matter what?  Right?  

I dont know I think or I fear that I am making this combat far more complicated than it is suppose to be.

[Brian Leybourne]

So for the first round is where the stance is important.  It is in that round that I either add two dice that can be used for combat or subtract two dice from the bowl to be used with defense then?  Not sure how that would work?  

Only for the first exchange of that round, not the whole round, but otherwise yes.

Frankly, nobody is going to declare an agressive stance and then defend (or visa versa) so your second scenario should never come up.

Then with the next round if neither side did damage or at least two much damage...the dice count of CP for both parties fighting is normal?

Yup.

Let us say that in the first round one side does the following damage to the second party fighting:

You basically got it all right after that. In summary:

Blood loss just accumulates as one number. Roll EN against that each round, and if failed drop Health by 1, until Health gets to 1 (all pools and attributes halved) and then zero (dead).

Pain subtracts from all pools. Remainder is ignored.

Shock subtracts from all pools. Any remainder is applied the following round as shock.

Pain and shock are not cumulative, in a given round only apply the larger of the two.

Brian.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

think of stances in this conceptual frame work:

Before the fight begins each guy places his weapon in a position that is either more appropriate to striking or blocking, or is favorable to neither. Then one decides to attck (throws a red die) and the other opts to defend. If the attacker's weapon was in a position that makes striking easier he gets the bonus dice, if the attacker was in a position more for blocking he has to transition out  of that to strike and loses dice. Vice versa for defending. Now that the two have gone from circling to exchanging blows there is no way to take a stance since combat is fluid and initiative changes. Until tehy break apart there are no stances or associated bonuses.

If one of them is wounded you remove the shock in dice right away along with the pain in dice. If there are not that many dice there then the penalty carries over to when pools refresh. Once all the shock dice have been removed form one round you can put them back in again at the next refreshing. Dice lost to pain stay gone.

ex: hit your funny bone and the shock hits you but goes away. Cut your hand and every time you try to use it it hurts until the cut heals.

I hope that helps.

[Valamir]

Frankly, nobody is going to declare an agressive stance and then defend (or visa versa) so your second scenario should never come up.

Actually it can happen pretty frequently.  Both parties declare Agressive stance, one is scared of losing a Red vs Red contest so drops a white instead preferring to take the -2 penelty rather than risk being instantly disemboweled.  Or both are scared of it and you get white/white.

Attacking from a defensive stance can be effective for the opposite reason.  If you have a real good chance of winning the Red vs Red roll, you can con your opponent into a red vs red situation by going defensive when he goes offensive.  Chances are he'll throw red assuming you'll throw white.  Won't he be surprised when you drop red too and he realizes that if he loses the initiative he's in big trouble.  Ballsy, but possibly effective against a slower but better opponent.

If one of them is wounded you remove the shock in dice right away along with the pain in dice.

That's not correct.  You only remove Pain dice at the beginning of a round, not right away.  Pain is generally less than Shock, so it can be seen as the shock that's left after the initial shock wears off (so to speak).

As Brian points out they aren't cumulative.  If you don't have enough dice to lose to cover the Shock, the excess carry over into the next round.  If the excess is less than the Pain that would be normally applied next round anyway, they simply go away to no effect.  If the excess is more than the Pain that would be applied anyway apply the Shock INSTEAD of the Pain this round, and apply only Pain on the next round (assuming no additional damage).

Other interesting things to be aware of.  Pain and Shock are NOT cumulative if from the same area.  Take a Pain 2 hit to Area V one round and a Pain 4 hit the next and you have total Pain of 4.  Pain is cumulative if to different areas.

Also if the same area is wounded multiple times, the shock always reverts to the shock of the worst wound to that area.  Take a Shock 4 hit to Area V one round and a 2 shock hit the next, the second hit actually does 4 Shock instead of doing 2.  

The rules don't specify what happens if you get hit for 0 damage to a wounded area...if the 0 damage hit is enough to trigger the return of prior Shock or not.  I'd rule that it is...hitting a sensitive area and all.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

Sorry, been playing it like that since Jake taught me the game, never bothered to read it up in the rules carefully, I just saw "shockan pain are cumulative" and went about my merry way... I suppose we could argue about it but....

ah, fuck it, getting wounded tends to kill you either way.

later.

[Franklin11Hour]

1)  The stance of a character is only important the first bout of round (That is doing 1. Declare stance and 2 Establish aggressor and defender...).  The +s and -s are only done in the beginning of the total combat's back and forth and not important after the beginning.  

2) Geralt and Felix give blows to one another.  As seen on page 79.
Geralt and then Felix pick an area.  Roll for attack (Felix) and then Defend (Geralt).  Then depending on that situation (from First half of the "Exhange of Blows") then there is a resolution of damage and/or determine new attitude (Number 4 from Chart on page 72-73).  If the agressor is still Felix then he can attack again (in the order of steps 5-6).  If the agressor is now Geralt then he does the attack.

3)  In the example on page 79-80, the Level of the wound was 5 on Felix.  If the wound was Level 2 (for example this time) then the information would be Blood Lose of 1.  Shock of 7 and Pain of 9-Felix's Will Power.  So.  The Blood Lose would be 2 for this round.  If Felix is hit again later on and has a BL of 4, the BL would now be 4.  For Shock, there would then be a subtracting of 7 dice from all of Felix's pools (Combat Pool, Sorcery Pool, and Missile Pool).   This Shock that deletes 7 dice will only occur for this time, not something that keeps going (unless Felix is hit again at another area and suffers more Shock that subtracts from the pools).  Pain, however, is subtracted each round though.  I take the 9 from above and subtract Felix's WP and that amount of dice is taken off each main round.

Hopefully I am getting a hang of this!  Thanks for your helping me!

[Kaare_Berg]

While you all are answering questions about combat.

The following situation happened in my game. A swung at B, B tried to counter. Easy enough, until A fumbeled.

Hmmm... *flips through book* and makes something up.

B wounded and subsequently killed A, but I am curious:

How would you all deal with this?

[Overdrive]

It says under Duck&Weave that if it's successful, attacker loses dice as if he'd fumbled. Something like half the dice used in the attack. Perhaps some other consequences as well (during our first session, one PC fumbled a terrain roll to draw his sword - he accidentally sliced off a bystander's ear).

[Brian Leybourne]

That's right Overdrive.

On a fumble, the attacker loses initiative, and loses half the number of dice they had used in the fumbled attack.

Brian.