A question about TROS' art

[Nero's Boot]

Why is it that art in TROS has to fall prey to the standard ploy of using half-naked women?  Why oh why oh why did Mr. Norwood decide that including half-naked women was the way to go?

God forbid that a system using "the most realistic combat system ever" would have art of FULLY ARMORED WOMEN, as opposed to barely dressed teenage wank material......

Why in God's name are these women barely clothed, yet given swords?  Armor protects you in battle; chainmail bikinis lead to ugly scars.

--just wanting to know NB

[Valamir]

So I take it your book arrived on time then.  That's good to know.  As much grief as we give the PO its truly amazing how many pieces of mail they push in a day.

As for the art...well, art generally doesn't mean much to me except as something to break text up with, so I guess I was pretty indifferent.  Quite honestly, unless its Angus McBride, pictures of fully armored guys (or gals...of which historically there weren't that many) don't do much for me either.  Now Angus on the other hand...ah well.  The downside to small press is there ain't no way to afford ole Angus.

[Pvt Kastro]

Since I don´t own a copy of The Riddle of Steel, I can´t say for sure, but to me it seems that the gritty, low-fantasy setting takes some of its inspiration from the sword & sorcery literature of the early 1900´s. Such authors as Robert E. Howard (a personal favorite of mine) had a clearly black and white view on some things, include women, who simply had to be beautiful, naked, and usually helpless. Keeping this in mind, I´d imagine that pictures of such women would fit fine in a gaming book such as The Riddle.

I´m a proud owner of the GURPS Conan supplement, and I have always simply loved the cover picture of the book (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/conan/img/cover_lg.jpg), in which the insanely muscular Conan wields an axe, trying to defend himself and a helpless/topless cute little girl from a humongous monster. Before anyone rushes to their angry reactions, this isn´t to say that I dislike women in general or anything like that, but like many things, it goes perfectly with the genre.

Also, in general, I´m definitely not in favor of using cheap tactics like using half-naked women in marketing or art itself (talking about the horrendous Terminator 3 -movie, for instance), but like I said, if it fits the genre/big picture, I just might go for it.

Now, I´ll quit with my ramble, and feel free to punch me to the teetch if I made any false assumptions.

    Pvt Kastro

[toli]

Why is it that art in TROS has to fall prey to the standard ploy of using half-naked women?  Why oh why oh why did Mr. Norwood decide that including half-naked women was the way to go?

Because historically Ailenor of Aquitane and Joan of Ark (arc ? or what ever)  were probably the only ones to ever put on any armor...plus one or two others whom I can't remember...

Besides, what wrong with half naked women?

NT

[Dan Sellars]

To post or not to post?

I'm sorry but, why oh why is there a need to complain about the artwork? read the rules, enjoy the game, ask questions, but please don't just complain, it wastes everyones time.

I personally like the illustrations in the main rule book very much (I've not got OBAM yet) and feel that they serve their pupose of bringing across the feel of Weryth very well.    

On a side note, women are recorded to have fought alongside men on the medieval battlefield.  Apparently (according to the presentor at a medieval festival/re-enactment I went to at the weekend) women's name are listed on muster rolls from that period.

regards,
Dan.

[Bankuei]

Hi NB,

It seems you're just looking for attention and reasons to complain.  

You've sought reasons to complain EVEN before you decided to order the book, decided to complain about the book because of the postal service, and now are complaining about the artwork, which the book makes no special claims about.  

I've lost both my parents over the last 2 years, and didn't see it necessary to seek attention, comfort, or whatever it is through a roleplaying site, as its completely inappropriate, and to be honest, a plea for attention.

There has been much valid criticism on these boards, of which Jake has taken note.  But, all you've done is complain about things without any form of understanding or discernment.

While I hope you get your money's worth of entertainment, whether it happens to be actual play, or simply an excuse to complain, I want you to know that empty complaints and attention seeking are not as welcome.

If we want to make valid and constructive criticisms about the artwork, let's talk about contrast, scanning quality for sharper images, clearer greytones, etc.

Chris

[Tywin Lannister]

I have to say that some of the interior art of TROS is pretty good, and some is pretty bad. And most is somewhere inbetween. I do still enjoy the game, because the system does not change according to art.

So you can run a fine campaign where all the women are heavily clad in fur and armor. But will your players like that? :D

[Draigh]

I find it hard to believe that people still take you seriously enough to even reply to your questions, you inflammatory little bastard.

Oops, did I say that? *tries to look innocent*

[Rattlehead]

Ok, I'm making a special effort and coming out of lurker mode here....

In response to your question, I have a question for you:
What the hell is wrong with you? You are clearly damaged in some way that makes you incapable of functioning in normal polite society.

It's patently obvious that you are merely trolling for attention (with some success), by posting your nonsense. Foremost, you are in a fan-based forum for TROS. What better place to stir up a flame war than where everyone comes to discuss something they're very happy with? Walking into fan-boy central waving a "TROS Sux!" flag is a surefire way to get your flame fix.

Beyond that, you're not even good at trolling. I mean, c'mon! Surely even you can do better than the classic "Chicks in bikinis are unrealistic" whine!

Now, if you wanted to discuss the quality of the artwork, you might be on to something. I personally find some of the artwork sub-standard even for indepenent publishing. Some of it, on the other hand is quite good. The truth is, I don't care. I didn't buy it for the "purdy pictures".

Have we forgotten one of the most important precepts of online communication? Exclusivity! When you join The Forge, you have a password and username. These aren't just to protect posters from being impersonated. They are to protect the community from undesirable elements such as this.

For Pete's sake! Just ban the kid and get it over with!

@Draigh - "inflammatory little bastard" doesn't begin to cover it.....

Brandon

PS: I'd like to state my support for half naked chicks everywhere! We need more of those....

[toli]

It might be a good idea to close this thread too.

[Ben]

I'd like to state my support for half naked chicks everywhere! We need more of those....

AMEN to THAT!

As an artist, I can say that the reason we don't draw women in full armor is because you can't see their tits that way.  I like tits therefore I draw tits.
I can't beleive someone actually complained about half naked women. Must be 'funny' or something.

[Stephen]

Nero,

To answer your objection more seriously - I understand being annoyed by appearing to conform to stereotypes, but there's a difference between conforming to stereotypes and reinforcing the patterns of a genre.  As others have noted, TROS is firmly in the tradition of low pulp fantasy, and scantily-clad women are a long part of that imagery.  It's worth noting that there are pieces which depict men in less-than-total states of dress, as well... and (for me) the cleverest and most subversive piece is one in the Combat chapter, where a woman dressed in the classic "chainmail bikini" is shown dead with an arrow through her gut.

That picture quite neatly skewers (pun intended), in a nicely subtle way, some of the classic images of the genre, and makes us think about the actual costs of combat.

----SJ "could be worse, could be porn" B

[Brian Leybourne]

Guys, fuck. Don't make me close another thread.

NB's post was presented in an inflamitory way yes, but that's no reason to fuel a flame war by responding in a like manner. Personal comments about the guy, or drawing parallels between how well some people took personal tragedy over others is right out. Stop it now.

And fuck, I hate having to make posts like this. Don't make me put on the moderator hat. It's itchy, uncomfortable and it doesn't fit well.

NB, although I don't like your tone, I think it's a reasonable enough question.

I can't give you the "official" answer, because I wasn't around when Jake laid out the main rulebook. However, I imagine the answer is something along the lines of Steven's comment plus a little "because that's how women get portrayed in Fantasy because the audience is mostly guys and get over it".

You'll also notice, that most of the thus clad women get shown elsewhere in the book dead, which is a subtle way of saying "don't dress this way in Weyrth or you're for it". See, it's a public service.

And the last answer is basically along the lines of "because we like that". Doesn't make anyone sexist, mysoginists, wife bashers, or anything of the like. Just makes us guys who like looking at girls. You know, human.

Brian.

[Nero's Boot]

One: I am a gay man, and I get thoroughly disgusted time and time again by seeing half-naked women with their tits hanging out in every single fantasy game and supplement.  For a game like Exalted, which is based on anime, this is not only appropriate, it fits like a glove.  But for a game like TROS, where the combat system is as lethal as it is, a female adventurer wandering around with her boobs and belly exposed is going to get gutted and left in a ditch.  I am personally disgusted by seeing women again and again being objectified as "purty gurls with big boobs and a nice butt."  For fuck's sake, the art in a gameline should support the themes of the game, and wandering around practically naked is a good way to get skewered.

Two: No, it is NOT attempting to emulate pulp sword and sorcery.  If THAT were the case, the rules for combat would be slanted in favor of the heroes.  Conan was a larger than life hero, and he faced things FAR more deadly that a thrust to his guts on a regular basis.  In terms of TROS, Conan's bravily stupid antics would have resulted in his death quite early on.

Three: I am not trolling, but anyone who thinks I am can politely go fuck himself.  I just lost my father, and am I not allowed anger at a crappy product that arrived on the very day my dad was buried?  Fuck you.  Just ban me, for fuck's sake.

--I guess everyone here likes to wack off to boobies in gaming products NB

[Draigh]

NB wrote:

I am personally disgusted by seeing women again and again being objectified as "purty gurls with big boobs and a nice butt."

That's an awfully "politically correct" statement for someone as abrasive as you to make.



NB wrote:

I am a gay man

I don't think anyone really cares about your sexual orientation here.

NB wrote:

. But for a game like TROS, where the combat system is as lethal as it is, a female adventurer wandering around with her boobs and belly exposed is going to get gutted and left in a ditch... the art in a gameline should support the themes of the game, and wandering around practically naked is a good way to get skewered.

I agree with you completely here, fighting without armor is a good way to get skewered, but I'll refer you to page 5 of the rulebook, under the heading "What kind of RPG is The Riddle of Steel?"

This is a game about personal conflict, moral dilemma, the brevity of life, and the search for answers.

The underlined portion of this sentence would imply that getting skewered, in a way, is one of the themes of TRoS.

I will refrain from commenting on your third point, basically because it was designed to incite a response.

I will once again suggest that you improve your attitude, or keep your remarks to yourself...
edit: I think we're all growing weary of your little game NB, I must say that the majority of your posts here have been in poor taste.  Please do us all a favor and stop.  /edit

Thank you.