D20 vs. OGL -- markteing Advantage?

[MongoosePaul]

Indeed most of the companies are giving up the D20 logo now. And that includes all the newer compainies that Ron is talking about. Somehow this year will be the ending of D20 in the market like we have been knowing it so far. There will be a lot fewer D20 products from now on. Definatelly this is going to provoke a lot more change in the market but it's not yet safe to speculate how. For the time being and the immediate future not going D20 seems to be the way as for Michael's case.

Hmm, I've counted a handful of companies, with Avalanche as the biggest, that have decided to go strictly OGL. And by a handful I really do mean that - around 5. Therefore it's more than a stretch to say that 'most' d20 companies are giving up the d20 logo. Moreover with Green Ronin, Necromancer, Bastion, Mystic Eye, FFG, AEG and ourselves I'd say that none of the biggest companies have chosen to give up releasing books using the d20 logo. I highly doubt that this year will see the end of d20 - see more products released under the OGL but not the d20 logo, yes.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Paul,

I'm having a little trouble understanding that very last bit of your post ...

see more products released under the OGL but not the d20 logo, yes.

Can you break it out into sentences for me?

Best,
Ron
who has no particular investment in d20/OGL for good or ill

[MongoosePaul]

Hi Ron and no problem

The starting premise is that every book released under the d20 system trademark license (having the d20 logo on the cover) is also released using the Open Game License. However, not every book released under the Open Game License is released under the d20 license.

To use the d20 license you have to (among other things) conform to the requirements of the Open Game License. However, to use the Open Game License you do not have to use the d20 system trademark license.

So, as an example. Mutants and Masterminds by Green Ronin is released under the Open Game License but not under the d20 license. This allows MnM to have character creation and advancement rules within it. As with any d20 product it's still drawing upon the system reference document (commonly called the SRD - the SRD is the rules of d20) but does not get to use the d20 badge on the cover.

Essentially, it's a tradeoff. Using the d20 license gives you the recognised compatibility indicator of the badge, but restricts your content (no character creation as the original example of a restriction). Not using it means your book might still be compatible but not instantly recognisable as such, however you can then do things (character creation) that you can't do if you had a d20 badge on the cover.

So, while i'm not expecting d20 to go away, I am expecting more publishers to release books using the system but not using the d20 badge. Even those who aren't giving up the use of the d20 logo in toto.

[Ron Edwards]

Thanks Paul,

Got it - "more OGL, from everyone, especially for new stuff, but not as much 'dropping d20' as some folks are predicting."

Also (and this is one of those self-respect-saving paragraphs that's probably not necessary), I actually already understand the relationship with OGL and d20, but it's good to have it laid out for others.

Best,
Ron

[xechnao]

Hmm, I've counted a handful of companies, with Avalanche as the biggest, that have decided to go strictly OGL. And by a handful I really do mean that - around 5. Therefore it's more than a stretch to say that 'most' d20 companies are giving up the d20 logo. Moreover with Green Ronin, Necromancer, Bastion, Mystic Eye, FFG, AEG and ourselves I'd say that none of the biggest companies have chosen to give up releasing books using the d20 logo. I highly doubt that this year will see the end of d20 - see more products released under the OGL but not the d20 logo, yes.

Dunno, I've got my impression from gaming report's site and links. Are you sure the companies you are reffering to are definatelly going to hold the D20 license for their products?

[ejh]

Essentially, it's a tradeoff. Using the d20 license gives you the recognised compatibility indicator of the badge, but restricts your content (no character creation as the original example of a restriction). Not using it means your book might still be compatible but not instantly recognisable as such, however you can then do things (character creation) that you can't do if you had a d20 badge on the cover.

Does the d20 license really guarantee any kind of compatibility beyond "it'll have to be 'compatible' with D&D character creation because it's not allowed to use its own"?

I hadn't previously understood either the OGL or d20 licenses to guarantee any particular degree of system compatibility with anything, besides that required by the "requires the PHB" line.

But then everything I know about these licenses I learned on a mailing list with the user Feng who once was thinking of going d20 with his game "Danger Patrol" before he got Forge religion and decided to do an homage to Wushu instead. :)

[Mike Holmes]

Xechano,

Paul works for Mongoose, one of the biggest and best D20 producers. And I'm going to guess he knows the people in those other companies personally. If he hasn't talked to them, he's at least probably heard them speak and the ENies, and other places, or knowswhat's going on from inside sources, etc.

I'm going to trust him on this one.

Mike

[Pramas]

Dunno, I've got my impression from gaming report's site and links. Are you sure the companies you are reffering to are definatelly going to hold the D20 license for their products?

Paul is right. Avalanche is the only company of any size that's bailing on d20 altogether. Atlas said they are considering what to do, but they haven't done anything as yet. While I'm sure people are making contingency plans, none of the leading d20 companies are giving up use of the license just yet.

[madelf]

I suspect a number of publishers are also waiting to see if WotC is going to do anything to make the recent changes to the d20 stl a little more "user friendly" before making the final decision to bail or not.

Early comments (in my perception at least) seemed to indicate that WotC was considering the issue, and what they might be able to do to address the concerns without compromising the intent behind the change.

If that works out, I don't think the crowd of d20 publishers will thin out much at all.
If it doesn't work out, then that may be a different story.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I think the issue raised by the initial post has been beaten into the ground pretty well, by this point. Since none of us really "know" what "could" happpen, and since certain useful observations have been made about what various companies really are doing, I'm not sure what information remains to be discussed.

If you are interested in discussing or clarifying an issue about the d20/OGL rules, then please start a new thread. But this one - "What will publishers do?" - is done.

Best,
Ron