[Brood Wars] - Paper Miniature Battle (Reviews?)

[gameskald]

Greetings everyone.

First and foremost I would like to say I have been skulking the boards for a couple days now and all I can say is WOW, alot of info here! GOOD STUFF!!! If I can make even a quarter of the contributions some others have here I will be exceedingly happy! I actually stumbled across this message board while looking to see if the name The Forge was taken. As you can probably guess, I was pleasantly surprised to find that it was.

So, I know what you are all saying....egads another Game Designer! And all I can say is, yep, another game designer. Let me give a little background on myself before the real post starts. I live in NY and have been Gaming for approx 18 years. I have to say I thought I had alot of experience until I came here and saw some game lists of what you people have played. All I could say was WOW! I haven't even heard of half of these. I have however played D&D basic - 3E (Avidly), White Wolf (all but changling), MERP, Paranoia, RIFTS, Tales from the Floating Vagabond, Dangerous Journeys, Amber, Stormbringer, Marvel, GURPS and a few others which I am unable to remember at the moment.

Of course, like most people I think I stuck with what I knew best (D&D). I usually floated away to try something new, but in the end I would drift back to see the old friend. A few years back I started designing my own system, to fit my needs...but of course after doing a little more research I discovered I was about to write a Heartbreaker. Nothing was new, both the "engine" and the setting were old hat. Then came the release of D20 (I know, I know....another D20 publisher.) well truth be told I know the system pretty well so I am comfortable with writing for it, so yes, another D20 publisher. Although It's not a D20 game that I am here to get feedback on. It's a miniature battle game which I have created from the game to the illustration. So, what I am looking for from the community is just an honest review, what with this being my first release of anything to the public. I thought allowing my peers a gander before the masses would be good. I hope that this is acceptable even though its not a true RPG.

So here is some information about the game. Its a simple roll vs roll on a 6-sided to determine the outcome of attack and defense between miniatures. The miniatures are paper, you can print them and glue them to some poster board if you would like to make the more sturdy. The Rules are included in the PDF. I have playtested it myself and enjoyed it, but then again the creator cannot really playtest his own work, since they know how it should function. There are play testers listed but I have not heard back from them yet.

I am looking for your feedback about the game, and you will really be the first people I show it to that I don't know. I am not looking for an Editor, as it is being editted right now:

1) I want to know if you think its fun?
2) Do the rules make sense?
3) Do you think it is worth a dollar?
4) Do you think the Layout works
5) How do you feel about the quality of the PDF?

Of course I am toying with the idea of making the version I am showing you a free download and then expanding the rules and selling those, but thats beside the point.  Here is a link to the PDF

Grimey Brood Wars

Here is a link to our website. If you like the game stop by and join the site.

http://dcg.gameskald.com

[anonymouse]

Well, for starters, the Forge is more about.. I hate to say "traditional" roleplaying games, because there's a lot of awesome, crazy shit going up every other day. But roleplaying games ne'ertheless, not just general games (tabletop or otherwise).

Secondly.. I can't read the whole PDF. It keeps crashing Acrobat (running the freebie version 6 on this machine).

Third, just about anything is worth a dollar. For selling it online, however, you'd want to have something set up so you got that whole dollar. I think things like Paypal charge some amount on one end of the purchase or the other.

Sooo.. yeah. Maybe wrong forum for this. =) Little I was able to read looked like it'd be fun for at least an afternoon, though, so that's something.

[gameskald]

Thanks for the feedback.

It is more so intended for just a good time and some laughs more than serious table top miniature gaming.

I figured this was for traditional RPG. But still I am not sure where to go for reviews for miniature games, and I really wanted some feedback.

Again thanks!

[Mike Holmes]

Welcome Gameskald,

How would you say that your game compares to, say, Warhammer? That system tries to walk a fine line between "serious" and "just for laughs". Is your game as complicated as WH? Less? More? What do you attempt to detail? What do you abstract?

As for appropriateness of this post to the site I would say that there probably are boards that focus more on miniatures development, FWIW. OTOH, did you have any intention of making an RPG crossover product?

There are probably more miniatures systems out there than you're aware of. The problem with publishing mini's rules, is that, unless you're also going to publish a line of minis, people tend to ignore such rules. The other option is to write them for a specific line, and file off the serial numbers. That still doesn't seem too work well, from what I've seen, however.

Generic rules don't seem to sell too well, either. Did you follow at all the progress of the recently recretated Chainmail rule set, for instance? Actually sold fairly well, but not good enough for the big guys to keep it as a line, apparently. Doesn't mean that you couldn't personally reproduce such success, but they had the tie-in with D&D to work with, again.

If you're really interested, especially if you're actually thinking of doing a line of minis, then Chris Pramas, who occasionally posts here, is the guy to talk to.

Mike

[gameskald]

Truth be told I have not played alot of mini games. I am not trying to recreate rules, I am more so looking for opinions on the content or concept of the game.

I was going to attempt to produce a line of minis but found the production cost to be way to high for my wallet. I simply do not have the means. So instead I thought better to offer paper minis and see if real minis would even be worth it, would the interest in playing this concept be large enough.

The thing is, or why I think this game is different than any other mini-game is the concept and the concept alone. Little critters which live on humans, and think their human is far superior to any other human, and when confronted by others fight to prove who's human is superior. They use weapons like Two handed toenails, scab sheilds, sling-snots etc... they are quite gross actually. The creatures themselves are my own creation. called Grimey's. They use magic called Festering where they summon forth spells of disgusting proportions like Flake storm, Snot Rocket etc. You can read all about these in the pdf.

So as I said, I am not worried about the rules themselves they are quite simple and really no different than the basic concept behind a game such as RISK. I am really just looking for if the write up on how to play makes sense to someone that is reading it for the first time. Is it comprehensive enough to get you started.

As far as the mini's go, I would rather offer paper mini's than just let this project Die, I personally think the concept has a certain disgusting appeal that just makes it funny.

So to answer your question, what is different in my game compared to WH? It's not your stock fantasy...no dwarves, elves or anything...a totally new creature called Grimeys. Who are not fighting for power, land, political gain or anything of the sort... they are merely fighting because some other grimey's talked smack about their human (They are sort of like drunken sports fans, fighting over whos team is better, but on a much more deadly scale.)

I simply do not want to let the money issue stop me from releasing this game.


how can I contact Chris Pramas? I would love to get a quote on a line of minis.

Does that answer what I am looking for Mike?

[Simon W]

I think it looks pretty good, from my brief skim over the rules.

I did notice something though, that Attack and Range values (page 5) seem to say the same thing. Not sure if this is intended.

BTW as the others have suggested, I think the game could be developed into a humerous RPG.

I'd say the layout looks good (what do I know about layout?), what I read of the rules seem simple, it could be fun if you have an hour to kill, and yes, it's worth a quid or two, i'd say (thats 3 bucks or so to you lot). In other words, don't undersell it.

Simon
It's a dog's life
http://www.geocities.com/dogs_life2003/

[gameskald]

Thanks Gideon! I will take a look at the Range and attack again. I might have muddled them up a bit and they ended up being confusing.

When I first had the idea it was going to be miniature, then I got a price qoute of $500.00 per original miniature, then I thought...Ahh ha! A card game....that was pretty cheap at about $3000.00 for 1000 decks, still though, I just don't have the money...Then I thought RPG, couldnt think of how to do it. So I decided paper miniatures are better than nothing, and if the interest is good enough I might do a mini line or card game.

I have recently discovered FUDGE, which might work for a Brood Wars RPG...but I have to put some serious thought behind what the heck you would do in the Grimey RPG beside fight the other players.

If anyone has some idea's I would love to hear them.

Oh and for those of you who havent looked that the rules, another thing that is a little different than other mini games is the Grimey Minis are life size, so you can play anywhere and use anything that is in the play area as obstacles...So if you are playing on the kitchen table and there are glasses and a bag of chips, all those things are in play, and they are exactly what they are (i.e. The bag of chips is a bag of chips) The Brood Wars take place right here in our world, in our present time. I just wanted to make that clarification as well. Thanks for all the input.

I don't want to undersell it, you think $3.00 is ok? Of course the version I release will have alot more Festering spells listed.

[Walt Freitag]

Hi Gameskald,

If you're not already familiar with it, you might want to take a look at Kenzer and Company's miniatures game Faerie Meat. Its overall concept doesn't overlap yours, which I think is pretty cool and highly marketable if you aim for the right age range, but it has a few key similarities. Most importantly, a 1:1 scale (the miniatures are life-sized, like yours), a significant gross-out factor (cannibalism-based power-ups, in FM's case), and a humorous tone on top of serious (and cutthroat) game play.

Six miniatures (eight, max) should be enough to launch GBW as a boxed game (rather than a line of miniatures sold separately). That's what Faerie Meat did, and then supplemented with a line of additional miniatures and expansion sets. I know that's still more capital than you have, but it's not all that different from custom card decks. As far as I can tell from outside looking in, Faerie Meat has been a business success and could be a useful model to imitate.

- Walt

[gameskald]

Very cool Walt!

I have never seen FM, sounds like a fun game though, I will have to check it out. I am glad you think its a marketable idea. I have thought so as well, and so did many friends and family, but you can't always trust those opinions, they might not want to hurt my feelings. If I could find someone who could develp 6-8 minis at a reasonable price I would be all for it. Like I said though real minis or paper minis, either way I want to get it out to the public and see what happens. If the want is great enough I might be able to stir up some capital to bring the gmae to its full fruitation. I guess I am really missing some much needed contacts! (HAHA)

Sounds like this FM game already did what I had originally planned. Course with money in my pocket I would do paper minis, real minis and cards. I already have an idea for expansion rules for the Grimey's and a way to make it more personal but I want to see how the staple concept does before I dump a ton more time into it.

THANKS!

[Mike Holmes]

A concept that I espouse here a lot is that game concepts by themselves don't sell. Or, rather, everybody who has a concept has a pretty cool concept, one that can potentially sell. What differentiates one game from another is how good a job the rules do in making playing the game interesting.

What I worry about is that you'll run into the same problem that Warhammer sometimes runs into. There's the everlasting Detail V. Playability debate. After you play a particular Warhammer army a couple of times, for a player like me, at least, that army loses a lot of luster. That is, the mechanics aren't complex enough to make gameplay evoke the feel of the units that you're playing with.

I especially feel this with games like Blood Bowl and Space Hulk, which are supposed to be all about the feel, but end up being dry tactical exercises in effect. Given the simplicity of your rules, I suspect that this will be a game that people play once. Which is not a bad thing itself, but is problematic for getting it to spread. Most mini games have communities that promote them. I can't see that happening here.

Now, I'm not saying that complexity is neccessarily a viable solution. In fact, if you bog a game down to the point where it will take more than a couple of hours to run a small battle, then players are really turned off. One of the attractions of Mini warfare is that you play out a battle and are done, usually with a clear winner. This is something that people can hang their hat on. Complexity can easily blow that out of the water.

OTOH, you have a game that seems to require few units on a side (as few as 4). The advantage to this is that you can add some detail to each unit and not extend play time to ridiculous extents. This might be something on which you want to capitalize.

The watchword with added complexity is elegance. That is, there are ways of making play more intricate that don't add greatly to the time it takes to play or learn the game. In Warhammer's case, for instance, they have standard rules for all units, and then make any power beyond that a special ability. The special abilities tend to all be handled with very similar mechanics that revolve around always only having to roll as few d6s as possible to obtain the result.

Now, the Warhammer method does have some things to recommend it, but it has disadvantages as well. Most abilities end up feeling like "more of same" for example. A special attack might just be more lethal at a particular range.

It seems to me that the color of the game is all in the Festering. But then you only have two abilities for each sort of character. This is an easy opportunity to increase potential color while not making the game any longer or more difficult; simply have more Fester powers.

Another thing that you might want to consider is that for a game based on feel, the idea of more than one player having the same character seems to dilute things a bit. What I'd do is to have many, many more characters, and only include one of each. Then for a game, you'd have a draft to start the game. This could even involve bidding points for characters. For league play, you'd want to have the draft at the beginning of the "season" so that teams are set until the end (possibly allowing for trades).

What having unique characters does is to allow the potential of adding unique powers into the game. This spices things up, and creates greater variation in play. And again it adds to the feel of the game.

Another thing to consider is Cesspool cooperation. That is, perhaps the characters from one Cesspool work best with characters from the same Cesspool. This can be reflected in a number of mechanics. The neat thing to do with this sort of thing is to counterbalance it with mechanics that make doing so weak (the fester availability already does this some). That makes team selection more interesting, and the selected combinations different across a whole second dimension. Players will have to decide whether to select Cesspool Tight, or Cesspool Variable type teams, or some compromise.

That's just off the top of my head. If you leave it as is, again, I think it's a one-play game. Add just a little more thoughtful detail, and you can get some replayability.

Technical:
The defense roll vs. the attack roll is made clear in the section on attacking as a n option, but the section on defense and damage (Step 3) muddies it up by the language not specifying what happens in case of a tie.

Can absorption be done at range? The rules don't specify that the Grimey has to be co-located with a dead Grimey in order to absorb.

Can you attack your own Grimey? There are cases where I can see it being a valid tactic.

Mike

[gameskald]

It seems to me that the color of the game is all in the Festering. But then you only have two abilities for each sort of character. This is an easy opportunity to increase potential color while not making the game any longer or more difficult; simply have more Fester powers.

There are many more planned powers for Festering. But seeing as I was giving this version away as a sort of LITE version I didnt want to list all of them.

Another thing that you might want to consider is that for a game based on feel, the idea of more than one player having the same character seems to dilute things a bit. What I'd do is to have many, many more characters, and only include one of each. Then for a game, you'd have a draft to start the game. This could even involve bidding points for characters. For league play, you'd want to have the draft at the beginning of the "season" so that teams are set until the end (possibly allowing for trades).

This is also the true manner in which I would produce the game, but once again I didnt want to hand out my entire bag of tricks for free.

What having unique characters does is to allow the potential of adding unique powers into the game. This spices things up, and creates greater variation in play. And again it adds to the feel of the game.

I completely agree with you here!

Technical:
The defense roll vs. the attack roll is made clear in the section on attacking as a n option, but the section on defense and damage (Step 3) muddies it up by the language not specifying what happens in case of a tie.

Can absorption be done at range? The rules don't specify that the Grimey has to be co-located with a dead Grimey in order to absorb.

I will take a look at re-wording step three and try to unmuddle it when I get home. And as far as the absorbtion good call, they have to be co-located and I shoudl have included that in the rules.

Thanks for all your input! I think you and I are on the same page as far as some of the more optional things like more Festering and Characters.
I should have clarified that these rules more sort of a LITE to provide examples of a full release. This is great feedback guys thanks for the input, its a great help!

[Valamir]

Also check out The Hills Rise Wild by Pagan Publishing.

Its a small skirmish level minis game (minis=standup cardboard dudes) where, much like Mike suggests, every character is unique with a unique power and abilities.  Its got a surprising degree of tactical depth to it, and while it wasn't my cup of tea (If I'm going to play a minis game, there better be some 6 pound cannon and a regiment of Old Guard on the table somewhere) it had quite a following when it came out a few years back.

[Mike Holmes]

Once again I do a technical review of an advertisement for a game. Erg.

No biggie. I probably should have realized that. BTW, I'm still surprised that this hasn't been moderated away, as there's been little RPG content. That said, perhaps if you developed the world of these little creatures some in order to have an answer to the "what would they do besides fight?" question for an RPG, it would inspire some additional rules for the game.

BTW, as far as price, I think if you add in the non-lite stuff you could charge as much as $5. That's just a WAG, however.

The game Ralph mentions is hilarious, especially if you're into Cthuluania. And a decent play.

Mike

[gameskald]

Thanks Mike and everyone. I am going to re-work the section on defense and set ip up for another critique here.

Anyone have some good suggestive boards where I can advertise this besides RPG.net  those boards are kinda dead.

[gameskald]

Ok,

I have fixed some of the typos pointed out, updated the Thank you section, added information on what to do in the event of a tie during combat and updated the Grimey Mucus Maximus. The 3rd draft is up for download.

Enjoy! And thanks alot everyone!