M:COTEC - Trait Design Insanity & a name change

[RobMuadib]

Hi all
First off, I have changed the title of the game from The Million Worlds to
Megamyrian: Chronicles of the Eternal Cycle for obvious reasons to fans
of Michael Moorcock.

Now to our lead story.
Well, I have finally put together a working draft of my trait design
architecture that I have been working on. It is quite the bit of document,
weighing in at about 36,000 words of about 80 pages. You can find a copy
in pdf
TraitDesignSystem.pdf on my website. First, I want to know if it's
understandble, of course. Next, I am looking for some comments on how
to better structure the pieces I have, which are the different ability
characteristics, into a more elegant system. Perhaps doing the cost
factor/base cost idea differently, or the way I define abilities. Maybe,
doing something like TriStat DX, where the different PMV's/ability
characteristics are basically switches that may or may not turned on for  
an ability, and bought up individually.

All of this is still very low level at the moment, traits are undifferentiated
for the most part, there being no trait concepts such as attributes, skills,
advantages, perks, Powers, etc.  I see these as being "object wrappers"
that you place individual low level ability definitions in to create instances.
I also need to write up my Ability Enhancements and Ability Limitations,
which is where the limitations and costs of use and such will be added.
These work as flat adjustments to the abilities current Cost Factor.
Another thing I need to think of is how to "cost" abilities that provide
multiple abilities.  

Similar to tri-stat is my loose idea of the "Most Specific relevant trait of
the same meta-type as the meta-type of the ability being used" rule for
setting opposing scores. Which looslely works out to something akin to
assumed super-attributes present in my initial system design. That is
something I could use more ideas on, how to handle Defaults and missing
traits, and how to set Opposing Scores. I am not fond of how free-form
the default/opposing score method is, the switch between ranged/vs no
range Opposing Score for Damage Effect.

Another worry is how to represent a muscle powered damage effect when
there isn't a strength trait. I guess currently by specifiying it, it would call
on the using entity's traits to provide one, defaulting to a 10 since it is an
undefined trait. Defaults also ties into attribute/skill dichotomy and such.
None of those trait concepts are present in the system as yet, so in that
way it is free-form, the only hard and fast rule is the idea of meta-type
specific traits. Ideas on how to handle this or work into the system would
be appreciated.

I was using object oriented thinking in how Objects are defined by a
number of traits which are defined by a number of ability characteristics
values that provide individual methods & attributes, and the way that
objects call on the trait scores of other object's to function. It is still very
loose and abstract at this point. The actual nitty gritty test mechanics are
pretty solid, being the mega-gauge mechanics I have already designed, in
most cases being cut and pasted into the document.

Finally, so this makes some more sense, here are a number of sample
Traits for the effects I have defined so far(with some fudged
limitation/enhancement values generated on the fly).

Laser Pistol Trait Design
META:P/Tech   (It's a high-tech energy weapon that shoots "lasers")+0 CF
DET:Standard (can be heard/seen/felt, etc.)+0CF
RNG: Extended (TS+10)m. +5 CF
       Standard ACC (GP(TS+7)) +0 BC
       Default Aim Time Profile +0 BC
       Aim Time   ACC
       1                  ACC-10
       2                  ACC-7
       3                  ACC-6
       4                  ACC-5
       5                  ACC-4
       6                  ACC-3
       7                  ACC-2
       8                  ACC-1
       9                  ACC
       10                 +1

TGT: Object/Ind      
Time: 1 Action Chance +0 CF
DTN: Instant +0 CF
Effects:
Energy Weapons - Outcome - Range
to hit with
PEN: (TS+5) +10 CF
DMG: TS
ST#:N/A -3 CF
PD Mod:N/A +6 BC
DMG Mod: +2(1.5) +3 CF
Ability Enhancements:
30 Charges Replenshable +10 CF
Ability Limitations:
Requires Energy Weapons Skill to use -3 CF
Obvious Accessible Focus, pistol -10 CF
Indepedent -20 CF
Final Cost Factor:-8 CF
Base Cost Factor:6 =
Base Cost: 16 Pts.
If bought with a Trait Score of 8,
Trait Cost: 25
Total Cost: 41

It's book listing
Xyrac Industries X-12 Laser Pistol
Meta: P/T "laser"         DET: Standard
RNG:18(60.0 m.)         TGT: Obj/Ind
Time: 1 AC                 DTN: Instant effect (zyrzzap)
Effects: Make
Energy Weapons - Outcome - Range (conditional)
to hit with
PEN:13(24) DMG: 8(6.0) ST#:N/A PDM:N/A DEM:+2
Aim Time  ACC
1                2
2                3
3                4
4                5
5                6
6                8
7                10
8                13
9                15
10              16

That should give you a basis to go on to see what the hell it's all about.
As you can see it still pretty clunky and all.

[Mike Holmes]

First off, Rob, if you want a larger response, I think that only I and perhaps three other people understand the scope of what you're trying to accomplish here, just what this is that you're posing. In general terms, you seem to always put the horse before the cart. You throw things out without preamble of any sort, and hope that folks will just glom onto what you're going for.

That means that looking at the document, that even I, who have been trying to follow the project cloesely, have no idea where you're going from the start of the document. As with all writing for instruction, Intro-Body-Summary. Tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and then tell the what you told them.

So. What is this? I think I know, but just so I do, and for others: where does this fit into the rest of your project. At the very least, provide a link to the original threads where you broke down the overall structure. Or, better yet, post it again, as I suspect that there have been some, at the very least, minor changes.

Then get some organization into the document, man. Modern organization. Better headers, more headers, more sectioning. More white space, especially between sections. How about some lists with Bullets. If you have charts, then have text set aside that explains the charts (not inline with the other text, but placed in such a way as it's unmistakeably about the chart).

Then, as I say above, preface large sections with introductions so that we know what we're about to get into.

Anyhow, I'll try to delve into it before that. But at the moment, my brain is reeling just from skimming it over. Reads less easily than an IVR technical spec. When we do get into it, I think that there's about a month of Sunday's worth of notes that I'll have on this stuff. But we're going to have to take it in parts, and it's going to be slow going, I think.

Please, if anyone else wants to take a look at it, don't let my hyperbolic attitude here stop you. If you're into currency theory and other parts of detail design, I think that you might find what Rob's got fascinating. So, by all means, dive in, and help out with this ambitious project.

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

OK, some preliminary notes to follow the post above.  

-If I have a Trait with a BCF that's less than -30, is the cost for the ability actually fractional as the cost formula would suggest? Are fractions retained in general?

-Some modifiers seem to be non-sensical with some sorts of Traits. That is, would I get the -5 cost for "Only Individuals" for all Social abilities? I can't see them working on Objects, or is that a possibility that's left open by the rules? And what would it imply?

What's the appropriate range for a social Trait? Is there some apporpriate range for Voice? If I use a phone, is that just some sort of an amplifier for the range of my Voice? If so, how do I purchase that? I can't make it a "bare advantage" without limiting the maximum power available through the use of the device (do you allow purchase of bare advantages?).

-On another note, I notice that you're curves for the costs of Time and Duration are very different. What's your logic behond each? On a very general (and important) point, are the mechanics meant to model the cost of some relative in-game effectiveness, or metagame dramatic importance? I sense a conflict here from the time rules.

Mike

[RobMuadib]

Mike

Thanks for the comments, let me answer a few here.

First off, Rob, if you want a larger response, I
think that only I and perhaps three other people understand the scope of
what you're trying to accomplish here, just what this is that you're posing.
In general terms, you seem to always put the horse before the cart. You
throw things out without preamble of any sort, and hope that folks will just
glom onto what you're going for.

So. What is this? I think I know, but just so I do, and for others: where
does this fit into the rest of your project. At the very least, provide a link
to the original threads where you broke down the overall structure. Or,
better yet, post it again, as I suspect that there have been some, at the
very least, minor changes.

A fatal flaw I have I guess. Assuming everyone understands the context
of what I am working on at the moment and immediately quibbling about
details. I think a repost of the State of the Game would be a good idea.
Laying out the structure of the game, and the place in it that the trait
design system takes. So I will make a post about it here soon.

That means that looking at the document, that even I, who have been
trying to follow the project cloesely, have no idea where you're going
from the start of the document. As with all writing for instruction, Intro-
Body-Summary. Tell them what you're going to tell them, tell them, and
then tell the what you told them.

Good point, I will include some intro and summary of the sections in my
next revision of the material.

Then get some organization into the document, man. Modern
organization. Better headers, more headers, more sectioning. More white
space, especially between sections. How about some lists with Bullets. If
you have charts, then have text set aside that explains the charts (not
inline with the other text, but placed in such a way as it's unmistakeably
about the chart).

Another good point, expect to see better organization in my next revision.

Anyhow, I'll try to delve into it before that. But at the moment, my brain
is reeling just from skimming it over. Reads less easily than an IVR
technical spec. When we do get into it, I think that there's about a month
of Sunday's worth of notes that I'll have on this stuff. But we're going to
have to take it in parts, and it's going to be slow going, I think.

Please, if anyone else wants to take a look at it, don't let my hyperbolic
attitude here stop you. If you're into currency theory and other parts of
detail design, I think that you might find what Rob's got fascinating. So,
by all means, dive in, and help out with this ambitious project.

Feel free to wait till after I produce a second revision, and post a state of
the game outline before you spend much time on the document. To
anyone else who might be interested in taking a look, look for my state of
the game intro when I describe the overall system, what I have discussed
about it, and where it sits now. One minor point, It won't be till next week
when I do this, as I am letting stuff sit for a week so I can come back to it
fresh.


Thanks for your interest.


Rob

[RobMuadib]

OK, some preliminary notes to follow the post
above.  

-If I have a Trait with a BCF that's less than -30, is the cost for the ability
actually fractional as the cost formula would suggest? Are fractions
retained in general?

Haven't thought of it too much, generally I was rounding up to a minimum
of one point, since dealing with fractional points is kind of a pain. Though
Might allow for fractional costs, since they are probably not that likely to
come up.

On that point, what do you think of my costing concept of using Major and
minor ability characteristics? The idea is that major ability characteristics
alter the cost factor of the ability, thereby altering the cost per point of
the Trait, versus minor ability characteristics altering the base cost,
thereby only affecting cost to acquire trait, but not to improve or purchase
it up? I am still concerned with coming up with a good cost mechanism to
allow for different ability characteristics to be tweaked with different
effects on cost.

For instance, Tri-Stat dX has it's PMV's that only add a flat cost to the cost
of the power level, which has individual cost per level based on the
attribute.

-Some modifiers seem to be non-sensical with some sorts of Traits. That
is, would I get the -5 cost for "Only Individuals" for all Social abilities? I
can't see them working on Objects, or is that a possibility that's left open
by the rules? And what would it imply?

Well, from a pure use of system, only individuals for social abilities would
be reasonable. Though it is possible you could affect objects that have
Social/empathic traits. Robots/Androids maybe? Computers, and then
there are sentient magic items and such. So social abilities would work in
general on anything that can respond to them, which would be
represented by it possessing empathic/social traits.

What's the appropriate range for a social Trait? Is there some apporpriate
range for Voice? If I use a phone, is that just some sort of an amplifier for
the range of my Voice? If so, how do I purchase that? I can't make it
a "bare advantage" without limiting the maximum power available through
the use of the device (do you allow purchase of bare advantages?).

Hmm, I have some rules for range based on social abilities that I wrote
particular to command. In it I stated it depended on the attitude of the
target towards the persona giving the commands. If the targets are
favorable towards the target, then line of sight/visual range is all that is
necessary. If they are neutral, then he has to be within talking/yelling
distance. And if they are hostile persona has to be within arms length of
them to command them.  

Could develop something similar, which would give some abilities sensory
targeting as range, as long as target is directly aware of user, effect
works. Others could be Sensory targeting voice, with variable limits based
on condition. (you could command someone amenable to voice over
phone or radio, which would extend range. Since they become directly
aware of you when they listen to it.), while others would be reach range,
depending. Radios/Phones etc would let you communicate at range,
basically adding to range of your voice, with various limitations.

-On another note, I notice that you're curves for the costs of Time and
Duration are very different. What's your logic behond each? On a very
general (and important) point, are the mechanics meant to model the cost
of some relative in-game effectiveness, or metagame dramatic
importance? I sense a conflict here from the time rules.

Hmm, I think you are confusing the chart for the trans-temporal range advantage with the Time chart, as both time and duration use the same chart. The trans-temporal range advantage uses 1/2 of the cost of time/duration. It's easier to see when the cost charts are broken out for view. I will put up a copy of my charts.doc in pdf with the relevant charts, and cost tables, in it. I won't get to it till next week though, as I said, I am letting it sit for a while, so I can look at it fresh.

At the moment I am costing it towards pure mechanical effect within the
game world. Relative in-game effectiveness based on how great the affect
on other entity's the ability provides. (So destroying an entity is costly, as
is creating one, summoning less so.)


best