Strangle? Garrots? any ideas?

[ZazielsRephaim]

Has anyone developed rules for strangulation, and perhaps stats on a garrot (strong cord or wire used to strangle)?  I was looking through the books, and while I didn't find anything on strangulation, I did find rule for animals constricting.  Not quite the same, but it gave me a basic idea.

Make a grapple first, (if totaly surprised the target, then that should be very easy).
Then I figure it could be a roll of ST vs TO (like constricting) and I guess the defender could do AG vs ST. (not sure tho on that)

So far, thats the constricting rules.  Of course it would all be localized on the neck, but would it be bashing damage?  My problem is that I have never strangled anyone to death, and neither has anyone I know.  (hopefully none of you) but someone might know how it works.  I figured by cutting off oxygen(and restricting bloodflow) to the brain.  Now how to model that in a game mechanic?  I don't think bashing damage would represent well.  (it would if you were just trying to crush their neck)

So, I had an idea, perhaps you have to get a number of successes in margin (representing how much O2 you've cut off?) Perhaps a number equal to your victim's EN.  But that AG vs ST defence is sounding a little too easy to get out, if the strangler needs to mount up a number of successes.  So after some play testing, might change it to 1/2AG vs ST.

I'd figure a tool like a garrot will improve chances.  Considering this isnt working like combat, it wont work like a weapon.  Perhaps it will give +2 dice to your roll to strangle, (but not the grapple)

Of course, all I know about this is what you see in the movies.  Which brings me to a few questions I need answered.

How long does it take?  therefore, how much time should each contested roll represent?

How does strangulation actually work?  If I got it wrong?

Anyone have any other ideas about this?

As for defence, I figure it would probably be better to grab the dagger from you belt and start stabbing the guy as he is strangling you.  If his hands are busy on the job, he cant defend unless he stops strangling.

[Furious D]

Well, you could have net successes act as shock, reducing the effect of the defenders actions as it goes on (including their opposed roll in the next exchange, in which case they get even more shock and quickly spiral into uselessness).  Basically, if they fail their first few rolls in a row, the only dice they would have to roll beyond that (and thus the only thing that could save them) would be their SAs (an idea I'm rather fond of).  Then, top it off with a Knockout roll of steadily increasing difficulty.  My first thought is to have the TN be equal to the total net successes that the aggressor has achieved.

[Bill Cook]

FYI, ZazielsRephaim is putting together his first TROS campaign, first session starting this month.  He's asking about the strangle thing to work out a motif for a character I'll be playing who (a) has a fine sense of justice, (b) internalizes feelings of anger toward the senseless injustice that surrounds him, (c) tends to clench his fists as an outward sign and (d) reaches out to the world with hatred and desperate violence.

So that's why I was pegging him for a strangler.  He's not some war machine, soldier type.  He's a pissed off Accountant.

This is the basic mechanic we're considering:

[list=1]
[*]Surprise or set to grapple
[*]Throttle: OFF: ST vs TO, DEF: AG vs ST.  With a positive Margin, DEF: KO vs cummulative Margin.
[/list:o]

Implications

[*]An unsuccessful throttle requires another setting grapple to renew strangling.
[*]The shock/pain of throttling decrements CP and attribute dice for defense rolls.
[*]After a strangler grapples to set, he can pin as a precursor to a throttle to prevent dagger or elbow attacks.
[*]A victim who stabs or stomps on a strangler's foot or whatever requires his assailant to DEF: WP vs Margin or the hold is broken.
[*]Once the victim fails his DEF: KO vs cummulative Margin, he's not just out, he's dead.
[/list:u]

Odds & Ends

[*]A garrot penalizes DEF: AG -2 vs ST
[*]A leather collar or chain headress penalizes OFF: ST -2 vs TO
[*]A metal collar or throat plate prevents the possibility of strangulation.  Unless you peel the damn thing off, first.
[/list:u]

How does that jive?

[ZazielsRephaim]

It still does not seem quite right.  I need to do some play testing, and experimentation.  Still welcoming any suggestions.

[Brian Leybourne]

Sounds like a lot of complicated rules for something that should be more simple.

In order to set, you have to sneak up behind the person. If they know you're coming, bang - no garotte.

Once behind them, make a grapple check. If successful, you're garotting them.

Each exchange, you can squeeze the wire tighter. Put as many CP dice into choking as you like, while the defender puts as many into resisting choking as they like. Roll off like an attack, adding Strength to your margin of success and Toughness to his, just like it was a usual attack.

With whatever dice you both have left in your CP's, he can make a break free attempt, and you can resist it, both using Strength as the base attribute.

Thus, you both have a decision to make - do you focus on choking or holding him there? Does he focus on breaking free or resisting the choke?

That would need to be playtested of course, it's just off the top of my head.

Brian.

[Deacon Blues]

Well, it depends on the choke, really.

When you're choking someone out, you're really attacking two areas - the windpipe (in the back of the throat, where the air goes up and down) and the carotid (the arteries on either side of the neck that carry blood directly to the brain).

Pressure on the windpipe causes the victim to gasp and cough.  If maintained long enough, or if struck very forcefully, it can crush the windpipe, doing permanent damage.  Getting a crushed windpipe on one shot, though, is tricky.  Your best shot is to wrap your hands around the victim's throat and press in the Adam's apple.

Pressure on the carotid arteries (either, really) will pass the victim out.  If put on correctly and applied steadily, they will pass out within, usually, ten seconds.  Another twenty will kill them.  The only people who can reliably pull this off are ninja, though.  There are some modern martial arts that still teach the carotid choke, but they teach it in a classroom setting, not as a combat technique.

(all of the above is what I know myself.  Now for the speculation ...)

Never having used a garotte, I would have to guess that the pressure is applied to the carotid.  A garotte is essentially a tourniquet to the neck - especially the advanced versions, where the back end is tied off with a stick through it and the stick is twisted like a steering wheel - and the effectiveness of a tourniquet is in the restriction of blood flow.  A crushed windpipe would be a bonus of a forceful or quick garotte, but not the original intention.

I won't even speculate on game applications, but I would suggest that toughness or strength have nothing to do with resisting a carotid choke.  A big guy could resist a crush to the throat or even fight through the damage, but size and strength have nothing to do with the fact that your brain needs blood.  Cut off that blood flow, and anyone, of any size, will fall.  Watch The Princess Bride, if you don't believe me.

[Caz]

If you're using a thin metal wire for your garotte, the damage can be cutting, otherwise bashing.  Either of those will likely put pressure on the windpipe and arteries.
 If you're using your arm, you can choose to do an arterial and/or windpipe choke.  
   If only on the windpipe, the person can struggle longer as they have lungfulls of air to go off of.  If on the arteries, the blood can't carry the oxygen from the lungs to the brain resulting in a much faster KO (and if maintained, death).
   They can be done only forcefully enough to KO, or if maintained kill, or with full force they will damage the neck/windpipe.
   All ninja myths aside, both of these methods are generally taught nowdays.  Police used to get people in straight windpipe chokeholds, until too many suspects died from it, (collapsed windpipes) so now they're trained in arterial chokes, which still cut off the windpipe but are less likely to damge it.  Neither is particularly difficult to do, and take little training.

[Lance D. Allen]

Personally, I don't think "damage" should enter the equation, with exception given perhaps to the thinner wire-garottes, and even there it should be fairly minimal.

That said, Brian's system seems the most elegant and useful. Instead of the "damage" being treated as damage, however, treat it like bleeding, and make it cumulative, though successes on the defender's part can reduce that "bleeding". Then, each round the defender makes an EN check -vs- the "bleeding" as normal. If the defender fails the EN check, lower HT as normal, but also make a KO roll. If the attacker is successful, then the "BL" should mount quickly, making it ever more difficult for the defender to resist, and leading to him losing consciousness, and thereafter possible death. if the attacker so wishes.

The difference between arterial choking and windpipe choking seems, to me at least, unnecessary for TRoS.

[Salamander]

use I learned will damn near remove your victim's head, sharp wire or no. Either way, I would treat the damage as cutting, due to the deadly nature of this sort of attack.

[ZazielsRephaim]

Thank you all!  I agree what I was coming up with was overly detailed and cumbersome.  Brian's system did seem quite useful.  I'll let you guys know the results of some play testing.

[Salamander]

Garrotte:
A garrotte is usually a fine weapon crafted of flexible wire or fine rope. The weapon is placed around the victm's neck and then the user operates the garrotte to kill the opponent. Garrottes can be improvised, but suffer a reduction in effectiveness. One example is the legendary Thuggees, worshipers of the Goddes Kali using a silk scarf folded in a specific manner to maximize its effectiveness.

Hands:2H
Range: Hand
Cut TN: 5
Thrust TN: N/A
DTN: 10  
Damage: Str -2
Cost: 2s/3s/4s
Availability: throughout history the garrotte has been known as an assassin's weapon and as such is a device which can only be purchased through either underworld connections or a smith with little scruples, or who trusts the user to not get caught and or disclose who made the weapon for them. As such, finding a garrotte weapon should be a an adventure unto itself.

The garrotte is employed after having snuck up on your victim. Prior to an attack the attacker must win a contested Sneak roll. Should the roll fail, the potential victim will be aware of your presence, and should they turn around, your intentions will immediately be known to the victim. Improvised garrottes will have the following stats Cut TN: 6 and Damage: Str -3. A properly used garrotte has been known to have severed a mans throat back to the spinal column on several occaissions. Death from strangulation is often attributed to an improper attack, or a ligature attack.

[Ingenious]

Well Salamander, that might be good for your situation to have the finding of a garrotte be an adventure in itself... but what I think what would work best in this situation would be either a violin string, a piano string, or a bowstring... given that the campaign date is around the mid 1400's, I'm not sure historically that there were violins and piano's back then. But a bowstring works just as well as any metal garrotte you could find, or attempt to find in an adventure.

[Salamander]

Well Salamander, that might be good for your situation to have the finding of a garrotte be an adventure in itself... but what I think what would work best in this situation would be either a violin string, a piano string, or a bowstring... given that the campaign date is around the mid 1400's, I'm not sure historically that there were violins and piano's back then. But a bowstring works just as well as any metal garrotte you could find, or attempt to find in an adventure.

Violin strings did exist, but if I am not mistaken they would be hell to bind onto dowels in order to use them (granny knots ain't gonna do it). They are made of catgut around then, if I recall correctly. Bowstrings might work... you'll end up with a bulky weapon and possibly the TN would go up, but the damage would stay close to what it should be...

[ZazielsRephaim]

Imho, argueing such a thing is a moot point.  To state any revelence to the game session in question, Violin string, no.  Piano string, no.  Bowstring .. meh?  The character is no trained assassin with access to quality weapons.  If he uses anything of the such, it'll probably be a fine rope, or very strong cord or something.  Or a leather strap.  This is a tale or regular and normal people being cast into an irregular situation.  Not a tale of irregular people.  Well everyone is irregular in their own way.  My point is I'm not trying to run a game of superhumans, or exquisitly equipped killing machines.

As BCook said... So that's why I was pegging him for a strangler. He's not some war machine, soldier type. He's a pissed off Accountant.


Hence, what would a pissed off accountant have access to when he goes postal?  What would an ex-regular army soldier turned priest have to say about how the world is turning out afterall?  What would a simple street theif do to aquire the purse of his mark?  And what would drive these people to work together in an "apparently" common goal?  

Well that last question is for me to take care of.  As I have.  

Ok, enough of my rant, sorry this got off topic.  I just have a little pent up rage from work.  

-Luke

[Salamander]

Imho, argueing such a thing is a moot point.  To state any revelence to the game session in question, Violin string, no.  Piano string, no.  Bowstring .. meh?  The character is no trained assassin with access to quality weapons.  If he uses anything of the such, it'll probably be a fine rope, or very strong cord or something.  Or a leather strap.  This is a tale or regular and normal people being cast into an irregular situation.  Not a tale of irregular people.  Well everyone is irregular in their own way.  My point is I'm not trying to run a game of superhumans, or exquisitly equipped killing machines.

As BCook said... So that's why I was pegging him for a strangler. He's not some war machine, soldier type. He's a pissed off Accountant.


Hence, what would a pissed off accountant have access to when he goes postal?  What would an ex-regular army soldier turned priest have to say about how the world is turning out afterall?  What would a simple street theif do to aquire the purse of his mark?  And what would drive these people to work together in an "apparently" common goal?  

Well that last question is for me to take care of.  As I have.  

Ok, enough of my rant, sorry this got off topic.  I just have a little pent up rage from work.  

-Luke

Fair enough, it is your campaign after all. =)