Imitating other media

[Damocles]

It's pretty much a commonplace that new media start out by imitating other media and then start to develop into new and unique directions. Roleplaying games are strange in that respect because they imitate so many other media. Where film, for example, imitated plays rpgs are imitating movies, television series, novels, ancient legends, even computer games.
That is not to say that this is a bad thing. Some of the best games closely fall in this category (Call of Cthulhu, Amber). But I think this is roughly analogous to movies that would also work well as plays or adapted very closely from plays. There is nothing wrong with it, and these movies can be very, very good, but it's only appropriate for a small number of movies and shouldn't be the default.

[Mike Holmes]

Hmmm. I think that I disagree about something here. In what way do RPGs imitate movies or TV or literature? In that they have stories that might be told in these media? Well, yes then, I suppose that as a sort of "media that tells stories" RPGs are similar to these other forms of media. However, I see many more differences than similarities. What makes a game of Call of Cthulhu like any movie that you've ever seen? Or even more clearly, how is D&D like a movie?

I think that the method of delivery and content of RPGs is unique, beholden to no other media particularly, and pretty damn cool to boot. Where's the problem?

Mike

[Laurel]

I agree with Mike.  I wouldn't consider RPGs inately imitative of all other story-driven or story-producing media.  Instead, perhaps you meant that the stories/themes within RPGs are derived from books,theatre,film,video/board games or influenced by all of them, which would be a signifant difference.  There's a thread called "Variation, Derivation, Innovation" higher up, and I think some of the ideas underlying it can be brought into this conversation very well.

Maybe you can clarify your post with examples, make sure every one is on the same page.  

[Ron Edwards]

I suggest, if we are looking for parent media for role-playing, that the primary candidate is wargaming.

The story-creating angle fits in there too. Even before role-playing existed, people used wargaming results as the bases for fantasy novels (e.g. Walker, Wargamers' World, from the late 60s; Barker's Petal Throne material; Stafford's Glorantha).

Best,
Ron

[Epoch]

I see other-media-imitation quite a lot, actually.

One grand example would be Feng Shui, which many times over references itself as attempting to create an "action movie."  I think that there have been several indie games on the Forge which have had a similar goal.

It also seems to come up a lot in discussions of RPG's -- people say, "This what happens in [a novel I like] -- I want the same thing to happen in my game."  Similarly, someone will say, "They don't worry about X in The Lord of the Rings, why should I have to worry about it in my games?"  (I get that a lot in balance discussions).

Anyone read The Rise of the Image, The Fall of the Word?  Some fascinating stuff on this kind of thing, relating to movies versus print.

[unodiablo]

The only other thing I would add to wargaming is ye olde traditional storytelling.

I don't think Feng Shui creates an action movie... Not even a narration of one. It uses a design that is essentially a simulationist wargame that is modeled after the conventions of action cinema. Despite not using maps or figures, it still utilizes relatively traditional simulationist design and mechanics.

Even my "2 Page Action Movie RPG" doesn't create an action movie. It creates, at best, a group narration of a story based on action movie themes... Which to me seems to be just a kind of group storytelling, with the wargaming aspect of dice added to help guide what you can add to the story.

Who authored the book you mention?

Sean

[Epoch]

Of course Feng Shui doesn't create an action movie.  Among other things, creating an action movie involves, y'know, film.

But it self consciously and self-admittedly does a lot of things to imitate action movies.

According to Amazon, Mitchell Stephens is that author of Rise of the Image, Fall of the Word, and their image of the cover looks like what I remember, so that's probably it.

[Laurel]

I'm still balking at the use of the word imitating and tossing around entire artistic mediums rather than specific products.  Let me give an example why.  

Monsters Inc. came out this week.  Its a movie about monsters coming through the closet and stealing a quintessential passion from children to maintain their society.

Little Fears came out this year.  Its an RPG about monsters coming through the closet and stealing a quintessential passion from children to maintain their society.

Monsters Inc. did not imitate Little Fears (that I know of) and Little Fears certainly didn't imitate Monsters Inc.  However, both products were ~influenced~ by the same kind of stories and ideas.  Their similarities are remarkable; their differences are obvious at a glance as well.

Some RPGs are products made to "hook" the readers/audience of specific books/movies: Star Wars, a Harry Potter RPG, any WFW RPGs.  They are trying to lure the people who loved the original story into playing their game.

Some RPGs are blatant imitations of one another or a book, movie, etc.  There would have been no Tunnels & Trolls without a Dungeons & Dragons.  

RPGs have no more role in borrowing mythic themes or stories than paintings, movies, or literature though.  RPGs don't try to 'imitate' Greek mythology but they could easily use Greek mythology as a story engine.  Books, oil paintings, and film however have been using Greek mythology as a story engine since their inception though so RPGs aren't doing anything unusual or unique.  

I don't think anyone here would argue that RPGs weren't fathered by wargames if we need to derive them from something.  The edition of mythical pantheons, martial arts, demonic possession, and every other goodie RPGs have picked up the way is simply the natural artistic impulse to assimilate everything we like into the stories we want to tell.  Nothing new or innovative to RPGs themselves with assimilation in my opinion.   Not even the fact that RPGs steal "kewl ideas" from movies, books, etc.,  Ask any screenwriter or playwright, painter or novelist: the crafters of all these other mediums borrow both their own medium and beyond- from art, cinema, television, blah blah too.   :smile:


[ This Message was edited by:  on 2001-11-09 21:17 ]

[Epoch]

Laurel,

I think that there are really two entirely different concepts going on here.  One is imitating another work's content.  For example, one of my favorite games Witchcraft, certainly appears to imitate the content of White Wolf's "World of Darkness."

I use that example to point out that I think that Witchcraft, in a lot of ways, surpasses the original material, and that this kind of imitation is not plagarism, and not prima facia a bad thing.

The second concept is imitating another medium.  For example, and this is commented upon in The Rise of the Image, The Fall of the Word, early movies were very similar in form to a staged, live production.  Wide, long, steady shots were the order of the day, the cameras wouldn't follow the actors around, and, in fact, they'd often film empty sets for several moments before the actors entered or after they left.

Compare that to Matrix, which self-consciously slows and speeds the filming, tends towards rapid cuts between lots of different camera angles, and uses wide shots only for establishing moments.

Another example of this kind of imitation is Unbreakable, which, I believe, was filmed in order to imitate (or interpret) the comic-book medium as much as possible.  They had all of these still or simple-action shots, with dramatic lighting, the actor carefully set up so that he takes up almost all of the frame...  It looked like a frame in a comic book.

Again, this kind of imitation is not a bad thing -- I loved Unbreakable -- but I do think that it's important to recognize that it's also not necessary.  Indeed, much as I love Unbreakable, I wouldn't want all or a majority of movies to do the same imitation of the comic book medium.  Similarly, neat as it is for Feng Shui to imitate action movies or Soap to imitate soap operas, I think that there's also a need to see RPG's as their own media.