HQ and LotR

[Mac Logo]

As has been said the advancement rate in HQ isn't realy appropriate to Middle Earth, where an escalating scale of advancement costs might be apropriate. Perhaps a cost of (1HP + Number of Masteries) per advancement would make sense?

That sounds perfect for mortals.

Using the Previous Experience guidelines in the Narrators chapter the line of Elros and the Dwarves would potentially top out at w4-w6 for a single keyword or ability grouping in their extreme old age.

For the elves, I'd suggest 1HP+(num_masteries squared). Using this scale an elf who lasts from the time of the trees until the 4th age potentially tops out at w11-w12 in a single keyword or ability grouping, which I don't think I too unreasonable for 10000 years.

It also serves to make all the extra advantages of elves a little (*cough*) more balanced/less munchkiny(*cough*). They advance much more slowly as they age.

Player heroes will probably rise a bit faster... but not live so long :)
And as ever, special NPCs are exceptions.

If anyone wants the refernce tables I produced (in HTML format) feel free to contact me.

Gondorian politics as Isildur fails to age... sounds fascinating. Machiavellian even.

Cheers

Graeme

[soru]

- Golum has obviously lost

no, by my rules smeagol/gollum won - he turned into a more twisted and extreme version of himself. This was the first thing that foiled sauron's plans, and showed gandalf that the hobbits could be useful. Saruman, on the other hand, lost  (against the palantir) - he turned into a puppet of sauron, not an independent megalomaniac.

YMMEMV, of course.

soru

[Der_Renegat]

For the elves, I'd suggest 1HP+(num_masteries squared). Using this scale an elf who lasts from the time of the trees until the 4th age potentially tops out at w11-w12 in a single keyword or ability grouping, which I don't think I too unreasonable for 10000 years.

One thing about superhuman ratings is that at some point you need an explanation how the rating could get so high, i think, despite of age.
Every being with a physical body underlies the limitations of the physical.
How fast, how strong, how intelligent can you get?
If you think of hongkong movies, where people are able to do amazing things, like flying and such stuff. These people must have superhuman ratings. In this genre i guess the explanation comes from being in tune with the flow of chi.
In a cyberpunk genre a human can have strength W5 because of cyberware.
But in most fantasycampaigns the explanation for being superhuman will be magic....
Think of shooting arows: if i was able to live for 200 years, how good could i ever get?
Splitting arrows with another arrow, like robin hood, i don´t think, thats a matter of practice or experience.
You will be always limited by your eyesight, your strength, your eye-hand coordination, whatever...physical limitations.
For mental abilities, its imaginable that you get very high ratings because you know lots of things, maybe it depends on your memory how much you can memorize.
For crafts i could imagine that perfect objects have superior quality, like boni.
I had that thought in the HeroScale thread as well, at some point, ability and magic are becoming similar, but are they the same thing ?
Just a few thoughts...
al the best
Christian

[simon_hibbs]

If you think of hongkong movies, where people are able to do amazing things, like flying and such stuff. These people must have superhuman ratings. In this genre i guess the explanation comes from being in tune with the flow of chi.

As an asside, this is because according to chinese mythology humans were orriginaly celestial beings with the innate ability to fly. This was lost when we inhabited the mundane world, but great heroes can regain these lost powers, as we see in the films. I'm afraid you can't realy extrapolate across to settings with other mythologies with different premises.


Simon Hibbs

[Valamir]

I like that framework alot.  Actual use of the ring triggers a contest with a bigger AP bonus than mere possession.  That works slick.

I agree that loss should cause "Minion of the Precious" not minion of "Sauron".  It would seem to me that if Sauron ever got control of the ring, THEN "Minion of the Precious" becomes "minion of Sauron", which would be reason enough for Golem to fear Sauron getting it.

I think it should also provide more subtle augments, of the "Luck / unluck" variety just by mere possession.  The ring needs the bearer and so will actually try to help the bearer get through obstacles...one reason why Bilbao had such good fortune through the rest of the hobbit.

...until such time as the ring decides its time to leave and then it "slips through your fingers" and the free augment becomes a penelty (or augment to the other side).  This is how Isildur manages to lose the ring in such an inglorious way.  The ring actively screwed him.

One might also postulate that this is how Isildur managed to defeat Sauron to begin with...the ring actively screwed Sauron.  Like a bound Sorcerer demon, the ring might not be an entirely willing servant of Sauron after all.  It may have a deeper ulterior motive of its own...or just enough sentience to act spitefully because Sauron hadn't "fed its need" in a while.

[simon_hibbs]

no, by my rules smeagol/gollum won -

Won what? His will is utterly subservient to the Precious and Frodo was able to controll him as a result. Also Gandalf had already decided Hobbits could be usefull long before the ring turned up - see The Hobbit for details.


Simon Hibbs

[Mac Logo]

I had that thought in the HeroScale thread as well, at some point, ability and magic are becoming similar, but are they the same thing ?

In Middle Earth, I would argue that they probably are. In Glorantha they explicitly are not. All other worlds will vary. :)

As for the practice thing - in Middle-earth, elves mature until they are at their physical peak and stay that way forever. They start off with better eyesight than a hawk, perfect balance and complete harmony with the world. then they live as long as the world - and they never get bored.
That's why they are a problem in an RPG. Humans have the good grace to get bored, grow old and die. There is no immortality for humans, it is expressly forbidden by the setting.

How good would you get in 200 years? I don't know. Neither of us are elves (or dunedain), so a definitive statement is unlikely. :)

Maybe we need a cap on physical abilities. Maybe not.
We certainly need to deal properly with aging and death, if there are going to be dynastic style games. If the player heroes are human, but not dunedain, then their children and grandchildren will be dealing with the same faces in the Court of Gondor and Arnor!

For Simon's purposes we may also need to deal with "artificially protracted life", to get that "thin, like butter scraped over too much bread" thing happening to Isildur.

Cheers

Graeme

[soru]

One thing about superhuman ratings is that at some point you need an explanation how the rating could get so high, i think, despite of age.

You could use the existing 'higher costs for abilities that didn't come up in play rule', on the argument that if it breaks the laws of nature, it couldn't have hapenned in play, as long as play takes place in a place where those laws apply.

Unless there is actually some ME equivalent of the heroplane (valinor?), where the laws of nature don't apply, and you can learn the trick of doing the impossible.

soru

[Donald]

Many RPGs differentiate between skill/finesse and power. In combat systems these are combat skill and your damage roll. In RQ magic they were the spells you knew and your POW. HeroQuest tries to get away from that so while a seperation of this kind may well make things easier I am trying to find an approach that keeps as close to the HQ way of doing things as possible, which may be doomed to fail of course.

I wasn't really thinking of that sort of two stage resolution. More that there are two different types of contest - one is using an artifact which the appropriate skill is knowledge of the artifact (Lore) while the other is contests between sentient creatures which are mental rather than physical where the appropriate skill is Will. The Palantir is probably a bad example because both types of contest are involved - Sauron can use his Palantir to control the others bringing about the contest of Will.

[Mac Logo]

Unless there is actually some ME equivalent of the heroplane (valinor?), where the laws of nature don't apply, and you can learn the trick of doing the impossible.

soru

Nope. The cosmology of Middle-earth is really not compatible with the HQ Gloranthan model of a heroplane and otherworlds.

YMEMV
:)

Graeme

[HMT]

I haven't played HeroQuest. I've only read the rules. So, this idea is completely untested (you have been warned):

Make traits like "Dwarf," "Elf" & "Hobbit" magic keywords. The effect would be to (for example) make the things that dwarfs do better than humans easier for the dwarfs by lowering the resistance for the dwarfs rather than by raising the ability ratings of the dwarfs.

[simon_hibbs]

Regarding starting ability ratings, HQ already has racial templates which give racial abilities at (usauly moderately high) starting values for free, and I think these can handle ME races well enough. Dwarves get 'Stalwart 18' for example.

Simon Hibbs

[Jaif]

I feel obligated to add a point about Aragorn; he defeated Sauron in an extended battle of will for the palantir.  Granted, he had the "home field advantage" (the palantir was dunedain by right), but this still is not a trivial point; Saruman lost this battle, after all.

So, was Aragorn a straight-up fighter on the scale of Legolas? I tend to doubt it.  In the more vague realm of power, was he bad-ass? Yup.

-Jeff

[HMT]

Regarding starting ability ratings, HQ already has racial templates which give racial abilities at (usauly moderately high) starting values for free, and I think these can handle ME races well enough. Dwarves get 'Stalwart 18' for example.

Simon Hibbs

I didn't have things like "stalwart" in mind. I had in mind the fact that the stonework of a typical dwarf craftsman is as fine as the work of Numenor at the height of its power, the fact that elves can walk on the top of the snow, the fact that an ordinary man has little or no chance of discovering an ordinary hobbit sneaking through the woods, etc. This looks like common magic to me.

[Mac Logo]

This looks like common magic to me.

Not to me. Species Keywords are the correct way to represent these abilities and perhaps Innate Abilities for elves.

I just cannot see Prof. Tolkien's hobbits as being any more magical than real-world English, peasant/yeoman farmers of the late middle ages.

Graeme