HQ and LotR

[simon_hibbs]

I just cannot see Prof. Tolkien's hobbits as being any more magical than real-world English, peasant/yeoman farmers of the late middle ages.

Nor me. If you ignore game mechanics for a moment, do the Hobbits think that their ability to travel unseen is magical? Do they use any overtly magical signs, incantations or 'mind tricks' to make it work? In world, what are they actualy doing that is other than simply taking advantage of the available cover and their small stature?

In Glorantha it's pretty obvious from reading the myths and stories that magical abilities dont work like mundane ones, but in Middle Earth that's not obviously the case.


Simon Hibbs

[Valamir]

Wow Mac.  I think you've completely missed the whole nature of hobbits.  Of course the hobbit abilities are magical.  Of course they don't even realize it.  Its such second nature what they do that it doesn't even register as unusual.  Nor do the elves think their abilities are anything other than "just being elves".  

To man, who has no innate magic of this type it appears wonderous.  To a hobbit, its just who they are.  That doesn't make it any less magical.

A major theme running through the trilogy is the giving way of the time of magic and magical beings to the time of men and technology.  Hobbits are very much of the time of magic, and they are very much magical beings.  Their magic is more subtle and less immediately appreciated then elf or dwarf nature perhaps but no less innate.

Certainly you don't think the shire is such a wondrously pastoral place simply because the ground is fertile...

[HMT]

Consider the following two quotes from Lord of the Rings, they are both from the scene in front of the door to Moria:

'Dwarf-doors are not made to be seen when shut,' said Gimli. 'They are invisible, and their own masters cannot find them or open them, if their secret is forgotten.'

'Yes,' said Gandalf, 'these doors are probably governed by words. Some dwarf-gates will open only at special times, or for particular persons; and some have locks and keys that are still needed when all necessary times and words are known ...'

I infer from such passages that such doors are notl uncommon in dwarven construction. Perhaps, all the finer craftsmen can make them.

[Der_Renegat]

If you ignore game mechanics for a moment

Very important point, i think.
I witnessed people a lot trying to bring everything down into a HQ corset, which cant be the point.
The story (LOTR) is bigger than the HQ mechanics !

all the best
Christian

[Eero Tuovinen]

Are hobbits et all magical: says it right in the Hobbit, don't remember the exact quote, but it went something like this: Hobbits are earthly creatures that don't have magic, except the common innate kind that allows them to hide when the big peoples come along. It's on page three or four, when hobbits are first described. Happen to remember it as I translated the part to latin some months ago.

Now, one of course shouldn't give too much weight to a single sentence, but it just happens to give quite a clear picture on JRRT's stance in the thirties: hobbit sneakiness could be perceived as magic. I myself think that the sentence is rhetorics for our purposes, and actually means exactly what has been proposed: they are naturally really good at it.

Anyway, I support simulating these kinds of racial features as racial keywords. Whether Tolkien thinks hobbit sneakiness is magic, it's clear he doesn't think that they are the kind of magic that break natural law. It's much closer to simply give hobbits high 'Hide from Big People' trait.

On the other hand, if one wants to go specific with these. going over everything in the books with a mind on traits, there are things that are closer to magic. Like that Legolas walking on snowbanks. It is explained as the light-footedness of elves, but it should be clear that this isn't an acquired trait in the sense that humans could learn it.

HQ rules being what they are, you could still do the elves without resorting to magic rules, though. Just give Legolas and friends 'Light Tread' at a suitably high mastery, stipulating if necessary that it would be quite useless for humans: all resistances are so great that you'd have to be an elf to even try for that kind of mastery. I personally don't see any problems, of which there are plenty if you try to construe it as a magic of Light Step. I quite think that Legolas's ability wouldn't help him against a magically fragile floor, after all (one explicitly made so by active magics).

Then again, it all depends on your vision. I'm convinced that there simply isn't any magic in the HQ sense in the common abilities of the Middle-Earth denizens. There is big differences in skill, sometimes effectively insurmountable differences, but no magic. I'd save magic mechanics with default resistances and all that for "High" magic of explicit castings Gandalf and such do.

[Mac Logo]

I infer from such passages that such doors are notl uncommon in dwarven construction. Perhaps, all the finer craftsmen can make them.

The Gates of Moria are exceedingly uncommon. They were made by Narvi, a master crafter even by Dwarven standards, with the aid of Celebrimbor. Celebrimbor was the greatest artisan of the Noldor since Feanor (and also Feanor's grandson) - he made the Three Rings of the Elves and learned his craft from "Annatar", otherwise known as Sauron.

The Doors of Durin were a "Wonder" of the Second Age, made when the traffic between the Noldor and the Dwarves was at it's greatest.

Graeme

[RaconteurX]

HeroQuest calls these innate magical abilities Talents, which are part of a hero's Common Magic. Hobbits should have a preternatural ability to conceal themselves from Big Folk, because that is supported in the literature. Elves should be able to imbue even the most common of objects with subtle magic at their creation (e.g. lembas, Elven rope, Elven cloaks).

I shall bring my copy of Decipher's The Lord of the Rings roleplaying game to work over the weekend and pound out a conversion of the racial templates contained therein, since no one else seems inclined to do it. No reason to reinvent the wheel...

[Mac Logo]

Wow Mac.  I think you've completely missed the whole nature of hobbits.  Of course the hobbit abilities are magical.  Of course they don't even realize it.  Its such second nature what they do that it doesn't even register as unusual.  Nor do the elves think their abilities are anything other than "just being elves".

Wow Ralph. I think you've completely missed the whole nature of hobbits.
:)

They are explicitly (stereotypical) traditional English rural folk. Distrustful of outsiders, but cheery and friendly nonetheless. It's not that they don't realise their abilities are magic, it's more that they are really good at avoiding big folk, to the level that it seems like magic to big folk. That was what the good Prof. said.

As for his writings on elves - they are not supernatural, but simply more natural. I can't find the exact quote (please forgive me), but Tolkien was adamant that elves did not do "magic" they did art. Art without the limitations of the feeble senses and finite life of mortal men. The only time the elves came close to doing "magic" was in the creation of the rings of power. Power being a word that Tolkien always used as a term of ... abuse is too strong, but pretty close. The elves were not fond of the word magic as it was a term they used for the corruptions o the Dark Lords.
[total geek] "ngol" was the quenya root word for skill and the root of the name of the noldor and the word fragment "gul" as seen in Morgul (black arts) c.f. Minas Morgul the 'Tower of Black Sorcery'.[/total geek]

Dwarves were created by the Vala Aule so he could teach crafts to willing pupils. Pure and simple - they were designed to be good crafters.

A major theme running through the trilogy is the giving way of the time of magic and magical beings to the time of men and technology.  Hobbits are very much of the time of magic, and they are very much magical beings.  Their magic is more subtle and less immediately appreciated then elf or dwarf nature perhaps but no less innate.

Dwarves and Elves are utterly techie in Middle Earth, but they do it in harmony with the environment. It's the evil chaps (Sauron & Saruman, who are roundly defeated) that tear down the forests and blight the earth. Technology was the forte of the Numenoreans - elf friends, the lot of them, until they listened to Sauron - and their child cultures. The Return of the King is the return to those old elven values. Making beautiful places and things to enhance the environment.

Certainly you don't think the shire is such a wondrously pastoral place simply because the ground is fertile...

It's England. It is that wonderfully fertile.
(n.b. I'm not English, I just live here.)

I think we may just have to agree to disagree. It certainly has gone beyond useful for game design, as there does seem to be two entrenched camps in the discussion. Maybe Ron should call time and split the topic?
:)

Cheers

Graeme

[HMT]

I infer from such passages that such doors are notl uncommon in dwarven construction. Perhaps, all the finer craftsmen can make them.

The Gates of Moria are exceedingly uncommon. They were made by Narvi, a master crafter even by Dwarven standards, with the aid of Celebrimbor. Celebrimbor was the greatest artisan of the Noldor since Feanor (and also Feanor's grandson) - he made the Three Rings of the Elves and learned his craft from "Annatar", otherwise known as Sauron.

The Doors of Durin were a "Wonder" of the Second Age, made when the traffic between the Noldor and the Dwarves was at it's greatest.

Graeme

My point was not that the Gates of Moria were common. The passage implies the dwarves made lots of doors that require specific words and times before they may be openned. The Gates of Moria are very large, beautiful, and very public.

I imagine (and I admit this comes from my imagination not the text) dwarves being impressed by the size and beauty while non-dwarves being impressed by the fact that they open on command. People tend to be amazed by the things they cannot do.

[simon_hibbs]

Now, one of course shouldn't give too much weight to a single sentence, but it just happens to give quite a clear picture on JRRT's stance in the thirties: hobbit sneakiness could be perceived as magic. I myself think that the sentence is rhetorics for our purposes, and actually means exactly what has been proposed: they are naturally really good at it.

I think that's quite right. You can't just read Tolkien and say "Ok he says this is magic, so we'll use the HQ magic rules for it."

For example, a mundane stealth ability is easier to use if there is cover nearby, and harder to use in flat open land. A magical stealth ability in HQ terms is equaly useful in either situation because the resistance is the default magical resistance of 14, or the magical detection ability of the person looking for you. I think this is clearly not appropriate for Hobbits in Middle Earth, and I'd say not for Elves either.


Simon Hibbs

[Mike Holmes]

I'd agree with Simon. For game purposes, though there may seem to be something magical about most things in ME, I think that you should only use the magic rules to emulate effects that are blatantly magical. That leaves the players to speculate, as we do, upon just how magical other things are.

Mike

[Mac Logo]

Count me along side Mike and Simon. To me, it's not that there is no magic in Middle-earth, I see it as being absolutely everywhere and not distinct from the mundane - except by degree. Within the world different folks draw the line in different places, but there is no line...

Graeme

[Mike Holmes]

Sorta. The point at which I'd start using the magic rules is precisely at the point where the denizens ooh and ahh at the effects. So wizards use magic, period. Gandalf does some plainly magical things at times.

The really big question is do you allow players to play elves, or, worse, wizards? Because there will be a large power gap. It's an important question, IMO.

Mike

[soru]

I think there's a default assumption in the fantasy genre that the basic laws of nature are the same as in our world, except for the existence of magic. Magic can break or bypass almost any rule, but requires some kind of active power source. Magic can be more or less unambiguously detected as such by fairly simple magic - both RQ and D&D have a detect magic spell.

If you buy that assumption, then anything that would break the laws of nature in our world, such as an eagle talking, or a wind child flying, must be magic.

In both Glorantha and Middle Earth, that assumption doesn't apply. Both worlds are flat, and not as a result of some great distortion spell, but because that is the nature they have according to their own natural laws. Thier laws are not our laws. Eagles talk because that is their nature, wind children fly because they have the air rune 9whatever that means), and so on.

The difference between Glorantha and ME is that Glorantha _also_ has magic of the natural-law-tweaking type. In the HQ rules, this is called active magic. Orlanthi fly by actively casting spells to do so. If you know suitable spells, you can detect the magical energies, and even dispell them (which will not exactly endear you to the orlanthi in question, or their kin).


In summary:

birds fly because they have a 'Fly' ability. Some would say this is magic.

gloranthan wind children fly because they have a 'Fly' ability in no way different from a birds, but perhaps a bit lower. They probably do have some active magic for flying faster, flying in still air, and so on. The fact that they would give an aerodynamical engineer a fit is neither here nor there.

orlanthi fly by active, detectable and dispellable magic, using the HQ magic rules. Everyone would call this magic.

a 747 flies by it's pilot using his 'pilot jumbo' ability against a default resistance of 14, with augments form the rest of the crew, autopilot, etc. An orlanthi would consider this magic, _and so do the HQ rules_. The pilot is borrowing power to do what he cannot do naturally, by means of rote learning of a complex procedure that has only an indirect symbolic connection to the act of flying.

soru

[HMT]

... active, detectable and dispellable magic, using the HQ magic rules ...

I like the rule of thumb contained in this statement. If it aint dispellable, it aint magic. I didn't intend for my original question to be: Are these abilities magic? I meant it to be: Should these abilities be modelled with the magic rules? However once it started, I enjoyed the discussion.

It wasn't clear to me that a flat resistance of 14 would be a bad idea. I find the above reasoning more convincing.