Training the GM

[Matt Gwinn]

I played a hodgepodge Palladium game yesterday with an inexperienced GM and I'd like some input.  

Let me start by giving you a run down on how the game played.  The GM let everyone make any kind of character from any world so long as we used the Palladium.  The GM them proceeded to magically transport all the characters to a single location via a powerful NPC who went on to tell us he did this for his own ammusement and that all we had to do was survive in this futuristic world where outsiders were usally killed on sight.

Throw in that the party was split about 50/50 good and evil and mixed with robots, Atlaneans, fairies, and superheroes - see any potential problems?  Well, the GM saw them too which is why he added that our chances of getting back to our own worlds relied upon us keeping each other alive.

Needless to say, I felt bullied and completely disconnected from my character as I was them forced to play him completely different from the way he was intended to be played.

My question is this.  How do you "train" an inexperienced GM to break free from all the traps inexperienced GMs seem to fall into?  

[Bankuei]

  I, too, had a very bad experience with a Palladium running GM.  I think the first thing to look at is what kind of person is the GM?  Some people actually care how they run the game, others will never change.  Provided you have a case of the first, here's a few things that might help you.

 Exposing the GM to other games with really good GM's is definitely a great way to teach.  Another option is pointing out ways to better handle a given situation after the session(provided he can take constructive criticism).  There hasn't been too many really good articles or indepth advice put out there.  It's like trying to write about singing, acting, or martial arts.  Words can only take you so far.

 Right now I'm in a Story Engine campaign that is dragging down, and it has only  a session or two more to go.  After it closes, I plan on talking to the GM and looking at what worked really well, what didn't and what could have been done differently.  

Bankuei

[Ben Morgan]

It's like trying to write about singing, acting, or martial arts. Words can only take you so far.

"Writing about Music is like Dancing about Architecture."

I'll agree with Bankuei. The best teacher is raw experience. If they see good GMs in action, hopefully, they'll pick up stuff.

[Le Joueur]

Amazing Kreskin wrote:

Bankuei wrote:

It's like trying to write about singing, acting, or martial arts. Words can only take you so far.

"Writing about Music is like Dancing about Architecture."

My sources suggest Frank Zappa said this.  The usual response is, "Then why do people write about music or architecture?"

I'll agree with Bankuei. The best teacher is raw experience. If they see good GMs in action, hopefully, they'll pick up stuff.

While I agree in principle with this, perhaps, if you wouldn't mind, can we talk about how far writing can go?  Certainly writing about gamemastering cannot teach it totally and utterly, but I hardly think that is a good reason to skip writing it completely (like a lot of role-playing games do).

So, as game designers, what can we tell our reader-gamemasters?  How far can we go?  How far is too far and how far isn't enough?  I am sorry I cannot offer much opinion, because I am having such a hard time setting this limit for myself.  I do know that I am convinced the 'state of the industry' is woefully inadequate.  Furthermore, since I subscribe to the idea that 'a good gamemaster can run anything,' I'd like to see how far I can facilitate reaching that point, in print (which means, probably a lot).

However, I draw the line at instructing on social ethics, group dynamics, 'fairness,' and making any kind of explicit social contract.  Otherwise, so far I have practiced, 'the sky is the limit.'  (Of course much might go in the edit.)

Fang Langford

[ This Message was edited by: Le Joueur on 2001-11-12 11:35 ]

[Ron Edwards]

I'd like to ask what the goal of this thread is.

Is it:
- Developing better GM skills at running/prepping Palladium games, especially a wide-open Rifts scenario? This could be expanded to any multi-world crazy-quilt kind of game, as well to a variety of games with Palladium-like systems.

- Developing better GM skills at running anything and everything? In my opinion, this is too broad a topic.

- Developing player-GM feedback for purposes of more enjoyable play? This clearly hops into the "social contract" element of role-playing.

- Or what?

As this is the Actual Play forum, I'd like to stay very concrete and focused on the particular elements of a given group or given game.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-11-11 14:43, Eloran wrote:
Throw in that the party was split about 50/50 good and evil and mixed with robots, Atlaneans, fairies, and superheroes - see any potential problems?  Well, the GM saw them too which is why he added that our chances of getting back to our own worlds relied upon us keeping each other alive.

My question in return regarding this game is what particularly do you feel that the GM did wrong? Was is not telling the players what kind of game it would be? Did you ask? Or did you buy into his unstated high premise?

Put another way, I see no probelms with the scenario as you've presented it to me. I see all sorts of opportunity for weird interaction, setting and character exploration, etc. I contend that it could be fun to play. You say it was not. Why particularly?

Needless to say, I felt bullied and completely disconnected from my character as I was them forced to play him completely different from the way he was intended to be played.

This is revealing. It sounds like a lack of communication somewhere. Perhaps the character that you made up was innapropriate for an unstated premise? And then you felt that you had to alter the character to prevent you from slipping into "my guy" mode. Or did you employ "my guy" mode?

Or did the GM continue to railroad you past the intro? What was the bullying part, the Deus Ex Machina NPC?

My question is this.  How do you "train" an inexperienced GM to break free from all the traps inexperienced GMs seem to fall into?  

Again, we need more info on what the problem was precisely, what you didn't like, what the GM did wrong, before we can comment on how to correct any bad behavior.

Mike

[Matt Gwinn]

ok, third times a charm right?  I've answered this post twice already and both times my computer crashed before I could finish.  Here goes.

Ron, I guess my intent is to try and determine if there is something I can do as a player to help guide the GM away from the common problems that plague novice GMs.  Before we started I offered to Co-GM and I think he took offense to that.  Now I don't really want to approach him with suggestions; is there a covert way to manipulate a GM?

Mike Wrote:
My question in return regarding this game is what particularly do you feel that the GM did wrong? Was is not telling the players what kind of game it would be? Did you ask? Or did you buy into his unstated high premise?

Primarily I think the mistake was throwing us all together and expecting us all to work together despite the fact that all of our characters were from different places and of different alignments.  Now granted, this sort of intro can work under some circumstances, but not with the group I was playing in.  Most of the players are follow the GM's lead types and aren't big into character interaction (not that we had the time because we were attacked by Veratech fighters as soon as we came remotely close to inner party conflict).

Put another way, I see no probelms with the scenario as you've presented it to me. I see all sorts of opportunity for weird interaction, setting and character exploration, etc. I contend that it could be fun to play. You say it was not. Why particularly?

If a more experienced GM like Moose or Paul had been running we would have had more character intereaction and been able to roleplay through ourbeen intereacting more on a social level which is what should have been happening, but instead it was "ok, the party's together, let's fight something".

With the amount of time it takes to make a Palladium character I'd like to be able too roleplay him.

This is revealing. It sounds like a lack of communication somewhere. Perhaps the character that you made up was innapropriate for an unstated premise? And then you felt that you had to alter the character to prevent you from slipping into "my guy" mode. Or did you employ "my guy" mode?

Part of it is my own fault because he did say there would be a lot of combat and I didn't make a combat orriented character.  My primary problem is that my character had no real desire to help the other characters (at least the evil ones anyway), but I know the GM is not experienced enough to run a game that would allow my character to be off on his own or off with just the other good characters.  I wanted to be in my guy mode, but fealt I couldn't d that without screwing the GM.

Or did the GM continue to railroad you past the intro? What was the bullying part, the Deus Ex Machina NPC?[/quote/]

We didn't get much past what I describe because we spent most of the night making characters.  I'll let you know if things improve.  The whole, "it'll be harder for you to get home if any of you die" thing was a bit bullying in my eyes.

Maybe a few weeks down the road I'll eat my words and the GM will have a vibrant scenario that explains everything about why we were brought together and why it is we must keep each other alive.  But I doubt it.  

,Matt G

[Mike Holmes]

Primarily I think the mistake was throwing us all together and expecting us all to work together despite the fact that all of our characters were from different places and of different alignments.  Now granted, this sort of intro can work under some circumstances, but not with the group I was playing in.  Most of the players are follow the GM's lead types and aren't big into character interaction (not that we had the time because we were attacked by Veratech fighters as soon as we came remotely close to inner party conflict).

Hmmm... It sounds like the GM is running things the way his players like. If they are follow the GM types, then this should work for them. Perhaps you are in the wrong game?

If a more experienced GM like Moose or Paul had been running we would have had more character intereaction and been able to roleplay through ourbeen intereacting more on a social level which is what should have been happening, but instead it was "ok, the party's together, let's fight something".

With the amount of time it takes to make a Palladium character I'd like to be able too roleplay him.

OK, now I'm sure your in the wrong game. Has the GM given any indication at all that he intended to run anything deeper than a hackfest?

Part of it is my own fault because he did say there would be a lot of combat and I didn't make a combat orriented character.  My primary problem is that my character had no real desire to help the other characters (at least the evil ones anyway), but I know the GM is not experienced enough to run a game that would allow my character to be off on his own or off with just the other good characters.  I wanted to be in my guy mode, but fealt I couldn't d that without screwing the GM.

No, my guy mode is usually dysfunctional; you did the right thing. The ligitamate thing to do is to continue to play your character as though he were in the situation as the GM has defined it. If he really values getting back, he'll have to find a way to "get along" with the others.

You might try an interesting version of "my guy" mode here. Tell the GM that you messed up in character design and want to be rid of the character. Explain that you'd like the character to "go rogue" and leave the party or even try and kill the party. Then run through that and either make a new character or just bow out. Might be fun.

We didn't get much past what I describe because we spent most of the night making characters.  I'll let you know if things improve.  The whole, "it'll be harder for you to get home if any of you die" thing was a bit bullying in my eyes.

Maybe a few weeks down the road I'll eat my words and the GM will have a vibrant scenario that explains everything about why we were brought together and why it is we must keep each other alive.  But I doubt it.  

Well, this is an obvious, cliche, and heavy-handed tactic. From that POV I agree with you. I suspect that the style of play will grate with you as much as anything else. My snap-analysis is that you are a Narrativist in a Gamist game. If you can't talk to the GM directly, then the obvious choice for exposing him to other styles is to run something yourself. Teach by example.

All-in-all, though, it seems like the bird has flown, and you now have to contend with whatever blunders he may make in the future. It seems a little late to alter the entire premise (without restarting entirely). So if this GM is really that much of a beginner, you may have to fix stuff problems with his style that you're not already aware of. So giving advice on how to fix these things is not easy. You might have to let him learn by making his own mistakes. This might be painful, but it's often the only way.

As far as your covert teaching...I dunno. It sounds risky in a lot of ways. If he figures out what you're doing he might be even more resentful, and then you'll be really sunk. One thing that you can do is request more authorial and directorial power. If he goes for it (not particularly likely) then you can maipulate the story around to something more interesting. He might get the advantages of bestowing these powers after seeing you employ it correctly. Again, teach by example.


Until then, if you want to stay in the game, its your challenge to figure out how to stay entertained. You do have some responsibility to the game having said that you'd play. Suggestions? Maybe you can alter the character a bit. Find a way to twist his personality to make the whole thing interesting. Don't expect the GM to help, take it upon yourself. Perhaps your character is will take this opportunity to study the bad guys up close so that he can take care of them more easily later? Or maybe he comes up with a whole side agenda along the way. Be creative; use unlicensed authorial power (my people need this rare mineral to power their generators! I'll collect it as we go).

Another option is to play belligerently. Sort of in "my guy" mode, but in an honest role-playing fashion. What we refered to in another recent thread as a Jerk character. Make it a challenge to the other characters not to kill him. Have him keep pointing out to them that they need him to get home, and then just be a huge pain in their butts. If you are lucky you might goad one of the other characters into killing yours, and then you're home free.

Anybody got something better?

Mike

[Ben Morgan]

Before we started I offered to Co-GM and I think he took offense to that. Now I don't really want to approach him with suggestions; is there a covert way to manipulate a GM?

This sends up a red flag right there. Roleplaying is a social activity involving trust. Any time one is covertly doing anything, one is treading dangerous ground.

Mike has a good suggestion; offer to run something on your own. He'll pick up on the good stuff.

If you've got no emotional investment in the group, playing to get killed may be an option, but then again, if you don't care about the group, why note just pick up and leave? If you do care about the group, you have a responsibility to them as a friend to honestly bring up your concerns (at least to the GM, if not to the group as a whole).



_________________
Ben Morgan
 ben@ad1066.com
   http://www.ad1066.com
     "Thank You, Amazing Kreskin"
             -- Dot, *Animaniacs*

[ This Message was edited by: Amazing Kreskin on 2001-11-13 16:13 ]

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I have observed that saying, "You know, I'm not having all the fun I'd like to be having in this game, and maybe we can talk about how to change that," is often mis-heard as, "You stupid moron! You're a terrible GM!"

Sound extreme? It is. I said "often," not "always." Just realize that it's a risk you run upon opening the topic. If you do get an extreme negative reaction, based on mis-hearing your (friendly) attempt to negotiate, then there will be nothing you can do.

I suggest you consider the following range of (separate) options.

1) Play your character and keep going. Who knows, maybe there's room for you and some other player to set up a subplot or enjoyable interaction. It may not be a matter of "changing" the GM so much as simply enjoying what he has to offer and making it semi-compatible with your goals. You'll have to compromise a tad and recognize that plenty of play will be about shooting things.

2) Make up a new PC who's ready to lock and load, and move straight into combat. This options means, basically, that you align yourself with the style and goals of play as presented.

3) Stop playing, either gradually or abruptly, hopefully with no particular bad feelings on your side. (Again, how the GM or other players choose to take it is their issue, as long as you're courteous about it.)

As for your original question, regarding your ability to "change" the GM covertly - frankly, this is probably not possible. This is actually kind of dysfunctional, socially speaking. A lot of people enter into contractual arrangements (or formal social scenes) in the hope of covertly changing someone, and it rarely works out well.

I am considering, also, that this GM has actually been pretty fair - he said, "Let's play Rifts" (arguably one of the most Gamist RPGs around), and he did say "This will be combat-heavy." What else can one really expect besides an ongoing series of fire-fights? The diversity among the player-characters may simply be a matter of saying, "Choose your favorite boom-stick and optimize to your heart's content."

So the idea of changing him, covertly or otherwise, actually seems kind of presumptuous to me. The problem here - or more accurately, the incompatibility - is YOURS. Either change how you're approaching the activity (options 1 and 2 above) or remove yourself from an activity you're not enjoying (option 3).

Best,
Ron

[Ron Edwards]

Hi,

A couple of previous threads you might find helpful include

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=249&forum=14&7">How do you let a GM down lightly?

and (the somewhat misnamed)

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?topic=308&forum=14&start=0">Stupid player tricks

Best,
Ron