[d20, sort of...] When d20 becomes something else

[Minx]

I first wanted to post this on rpg.net, but I didn't want to start a possible "We hate\love d20 and we want to kill you for what you've done"-thread, so...

If I'm in the wrong part of the forum with this thread, it would be nice of the admins to move the thread, thank you. (Sometimes Im not quite sure which part a thrad belongs...)

For Nacht, my "always in progress" homebrew game, I plan to support many different rule systems. One will also be d20, a system which don't like much and which I did choose mainly because of its popularity. Also it would be nice to try and turn a system thats suboptimal for the game I'm writing into something that works for me. (It's a personal challenge. :D )

Now the last nights, I tried to sumn up the things that I wanted to change and think about ways to do that. It was hard not to get sucked into a "Gosh, this will never work, I'd have to change everything!!!" mode of thinking, but I made it. (At least on the second night.)

I started with throwing out the things that I didn't want to have in my game. Classes went first ("Nacht" is written with a skill-based ystem in mind and it would be too much work to invent new classes or change the old ones.), levels followed pretty soon, and the problems started. In d20, the only real way of comparing experience and competence is the level-mechanic. It limits the skills, the saves, the feats etc. As the numbers are pretty non-descript ("So you got a +2 in riding, does that mean you're good?"), the levels served as a good way to compare numbers. (So the limit for your level is 6 and you have a 5, so you're quite good for your level.") But without levels (and classes) I needed a way to determine and compare competence.

In most game, this is done by giving an average (Like a skill of 3 in Shadowrun. for ex.), something that (As far as I know but I may be wrong) is seemingly nonexistant in D&D\d20. (I took a skill level of 8 as maximum during character creation, but playtest will have to determine the exact numbers.)

The result, after some more hours of thinking and writing was something that doesn't resemble d20 at all, but that could work quite nice for my game:

No levels and classes.

Saves may either be turned into skills or ditched as a whole.

BAB is turned into Combat skills like "Swords", "Bows" etc.

The skill list was heavily changed, with some new skills added and many skills fused together (like Spot, Listen and Search becoming "Awareness").

Feats were thrown out completly. Some will be turned into combat manouvers, and some special tricks of the classes will be used in my magic systems. (Works a bit like the charms in "Underworld", but as gifts, tricks or talents.)

First I wanted to ditch HP's too and use some sort od damage save combined with a damage ladder a la Vampire or Shadowrun, but it became too complicated to balance things, so I just went with "Everyone gets 15+Con modifier HP's".
----------------

So, after all these changes, I have a nice rules-light system sans classes or levels and an answer to the question "What do I have to change so that d20 isn't d20 any more?": Just throw out classes, feats, saves and, especially, levels.

So, what do you think? Should I use something like that or should I just forget the "support" of d20? Any comments to the systems.

M

[montag]

based on the information you provide it's hard to tell. Anyway, your modifikation doesn't sound like d20 anymore to me, so it seems there really isn't any d20 support for Nacht/Night. In that case, you might add your former-d20 system just to make those players feel a little more at home, but if it's too much trouble to write it up properly, you might as well ignore d20. Or offer you former-d20 separately (AFAIK there are a number of conversions, for instance GURPS to d20, your system may or may not add to that.)
I doubt I was able to help, especially since I'm not sure what the actual question is. Maybe, if you rephrased it ...

[Kryyst]

Since you've pretty much scrapped everything that makes D20 stand out as D20.  I'd say that you might as well scrap any notion that you had of making your game compatible with it.

To me if I see a system that says it's compatible with another system.  That means I should be able to take a character out of the other system and drop it into this one.  Perhaps some modifications like changing the scaling of attributes or something.  But when you pretty much drop him in and left with only a name and stats, that to me isn't really a compatible system anymore.

[Loki]

What you're trying to do really reminded me of an existing project  that's out there http://members.lycos.co.uk/merlinsworkshop/front.htm, called Classically Modern. YMMV. I found it to look cumbersome, and never tried it myself.

[Umberhulk]

I think you have arrived at what I coin as "5th Edition DnD" which is basically GURPS using a d20 instead of 3d6 :-) ...

[Minx]

I think you have arrived at what I coin as "5th Edition DnD" which is basically GURPS using a d20 instead of 3d6 :-) ...

Hey, thanks... :D

Since you've pretty much scrapped everything that makes D20 stand out as D20. I'd say that you might as well scrap any notion that you had of making your game compatible with it. ...

Well, after seeing where I'd landed with my "conversion", I didn't plan to use that as something d20. (As it isn't that any longer.) My plan was (and more or less still is) to include a chapter in the GM handbook called something like "When tastes differ...-Optional rule systems", which will be a collection of "Oh, you want to play Nacht with [insert your system here]? I'll tell you what I think about it"-style articles, with tips of how to include systems like UA, Daidalos or BESM into the game. It was never ment to include a big "COMPATIBLE WITH THE MOST SUCCESSFULL RPG OF ALL TIMES" slogan.

(Quite to to the contrary, the d20 article should beginn with something along the lines of "First let me state that I wouldn't do it. Never ever and in no possible way, becase it would suck hard, IMNSHO." ;) )

M

[Umberhulk]

The advantage for using d20 is that there is so much existing stuff out there to draw from and a large player base with familiarity to the rules.  If the goal is to have a bridge system, you really should be able to easily convert existing d20 stats into Natch stats, since like 90% of roleplaying publications are d20 of some variety.

[Kryyst]

The advantage for using d20 is that there is so much existing stuff out there to draw from and a large player base with familiarity to the rules.  If the goal is to have a bridge system, you really should be able to easily convert existing d20 stats into Natch stats, since like 90% of roleplaying publications are d20 of some variety.

That can also be a dissadvantage.  Since if your system is just another version of d20 it has to offer something that will make someone who already owns say the D20 Players Handbook/DMG/MM and maybe another rule book or 2 like Arcana Unearthed, or the new (and cool) Conan.  To want to drop money on another new rule book which has nothing really new to offer.

OGL is great and it can offer a lot to the rule tweakers.  But IMO currently any D20 or OGL book coming out right now if I'm going to waste money on it has to have a lot more setting then rules for me to bother being interested.  I don't need to drop coin on a new D20 rule book because they called Hit points wounds or some other insignificant twist.

So to continue that thought.  If you are making a new setting and want a new system for it I'd distance yourself from D20 as much as possible if you want to stand out at all.

[timfire]

No levels and classes.

Saves may either be turned into skills or ditched as a whole.

BAB is turned into Combat skills like "Swords", "Bows" etc.

The skill list was heavily changed, with some new skills added and many skills fused together (like Spot, Listen and Search becoming "Awareness").

Feats were thrown out completly. Some will be turned into combat manouvers, and some special tricks of the classes will be used in my magic systems. (Works a bit like the charms in "Underworld", but as gifts, tricks or talents.)

First I wanted to ditch HP's too and use some sort od damage save combined with a damage ladder a la Vampire or Shadowrun, but it became too complicated to balance things, so I just went with "Everyone gets 15+Con modifier HP's".

I, too, am working on a d20 mod that is close to no longer being d20, so I know where you're coming from. Despite what others have said, I think there's still value in calling it d20 even if it really isn't. Keeping the d20 name can appeal to those newer gamers who haven't (or won't) tried anything else.

A few thoughts:

Levels/Experience: This is a core concept, but I believe you can still remove it and keep the d20 name.

Saves: If you get rid of class, then everything has to be a skill (or feat)...

BAB: Your idea is fine, but if I may bring up the "R"-word, realistically a fighter's skill is a combination of general combat knowledge (ie "BAB") and specific weapon skill. General skills such as timing, distance, the ability to read one's movements, reaction, and general stratedy are skills that are independent of specific weapons. In my own d20 mod, I halved a class' BAB and introduced specific weapon skills that takes up the slack.

Skills: Changing skills is fine. Every d20 game that come out has a new skill list.

Feats: I really like the idea of feats (that feats are abilities or automatic skills that don't require a check), but I dislike the way most feats are used. Thus for my mod I've got rid of many of them and added a few of my own.

HP: Do a search for the Ken Hood's Grim 'N Gritty HP system. You may like it. It's basically HP= Con + 1or2 per level, with a few tweaks to the combat system.

Good Luck, not many people here are fond of the idea of tweaking d20, but I still think it can be worthwhile.

(Kryyst) ...To me if I see a system that says it's compatible with another system. That means I should be able to take a character out of the other system and drop it into this one....

I don't think the purpose of d20 is create some sort of universal system in the way that GURPS is. I think the purpose is to create a general body of rules that players are familiar with, so they can switch from one game to the next without having to learn a new system. For example, I think the purpose is to be able to play DnD THEN SWITCH TO Modern THEN SWITCH TO d20 BESM (why did they update, their old rules were just fine?) THEN SWITCH TO Star Wars. I don't think the purpose is to take a DnD character and put them in Modern, or take a d20 BESM character and put them in Star Wars.

[Kryyst]

No levels and classes.

(Kryyst) ...To me if I see a system that says it's compatible with another system. That means I should be able to take a character out of the other system and drop it into this one....

I don't think the purpose of d20 is create some sort of universal system in the way that GURPS is. I think the purpose is to create a general body of rules that players are familiar with, so they can switch from one game to the next without having to learn a new system. For example, I think the purpose is to be able to play DnD THEN SWITCH TO Modern THEN SWITCH TO d20 BESM (why did they update, their old rules were just fine?) THEN SWITCH TO Star Wars. I don't think the purpose is to take a DnD character and put them in Modern, or take a d20 BESM character and put them in Star Wars.

I agree.  But the way the idea was presented was a fantasy game that was compatible with D20...so in that case I as a consumer/DM would expect to be able to drop in my current characters with little to no needed change.  Not just you get to keep your name and pretty much scrap everything else.

[Minx]

So, after I dumped my system (Well, put it away for possible future use as some nice and small system.) it would interest me if there are interesting takes on the d20 system out there that could do it for me. I'm not a d20 crack, but I know some variants that exist. (Mainly Anime d20, the Grim 'n Gritty rules and some other things, which I can't remember clearly enough to put a name to them.)

I'd be very gratefull for some of the systems out there and some short description of the changes. Would be nice, thank you. :)

M

[timfire]

I'm not totally up on all the d20 stuff that's out there, but I know a few.

Ken Hood (the Grim 'N Gritty guy), also made a no HP system, though I don't know how it works. He also made a martial arts system that introduces specific manuvers that act like mini-feats. He also made a skill & Feat based psionic system. The GnG, martial arts and psionics systems were created for a Dune-eque scifi setting of his. I think he's in the process of publishing it.

Monte Cook's variant player's handbook Arcana Unearthed has a magic system that's still memory-based, but has flexible rules for modifying the effects of the spells. He also has a few minor tweaks as well.

Mutants and Masterminds (an OGL game) has some sort of alternative damage system that has some sort of "damage save" feature. I've never played the game.

D20 Modern has a few tweaks to the class system. They introduced a "profession" feature that provides pernament class skills. Also has a few other tweaks.

Every d20 game that comes out seems to have a few tweaks in it, but the point-based BESM and Ken Hood's ideas are the most radical I've seen.

[Minx]

I first couldn't believe it, but I've found a d20 system that not only sounds fun, but one that could actually fit into my game!!!

You can find it here.

Have a look!

M

[Dotan Dimet]

Mutants & Masterminds (mentioned earlier) throws out Classes and Races, uses Level only as a measure (and limit) of character power and competence (skill bonus maximums, power point maximums, etc), drops hit points in favour of a Damage save rule (which lets it discard all the funky dice, except for the d20 itself), and adds a system for super powers and power points for character construction.

The result is a cool game system which is probably easier for DnDers to move to than Champions (whether the Hero or the Fuzion variants) or BESM. But it ain't D&D.

I think that unless you want to make your "fixed" d20 your primary system, it's not worth building just to offer a "bridge" system for DnDers, like what was done with Silver Age Sentinels d20 or Godlike's d20 version. If it's not a D&D variant, it doesn't need to be d20.

[Minx]

Mutants & Masterminds (mentioned earlier) throws out Classes and Races, uses Level only as a measure (and limit) of character power and competence (skill bonus maximums, power point maximums, etc), drops hit points in favour of a Damage save rule (which lets it discard all the funky dice, except for the d20 itself), and adds a system for super powers and power points for character construction.

The result is a cool game system which is probably easier for DnDers to move to than Champions (whether the Hero or the Fuzion variants) or BESM. But it ain't D&D.

I think that unless you want to make your "fixed" d20 your primary system, it's not worth building just to offer a "bridge" system for DnDers, like what was done with Silver Age Sentinels d20 or Godlike's d20 version. If it's not a D&D variant, it doesn't need to be d20.

Well, as I already said earlier, the system was not more than an experiment for my "Optional Systems" chapter. I want to include as many "manuals" in the style of "How I'd play Nacht with [insert favourite system here]". The main system (ie the one the game was designed for) is "The Window" with some additional rules added. As my work for the game is mostly the background (And the art, the layout, the fiction...) I want to make the game accessable to as many gamers as possible. And as "The Window" maybe not be the system for everyone, I tried (and am still trying) to make it playable with many systems.

M