Does art matter (split from older thread)

[apeiron]

@ Sorry, just getting into this thread now.

@ Art does matter in so far as it helps to give an image to what the game is about.  Vampire 2nd Ed had artwork that captured the style and feel of the game.  That helped me understand what they were saying in one more way.

@ However comma one must be careful to not let the art take over.  The LotR RPG has gorgeous artwork, but is poorly written as a game.  The mechanics and class system are quite lacking.  Had they cut the art budget in half and spent a that time in more play testing and editing they could have weeded out some of the flaws in the game itself.

@ In short: Form Follows Function. It has to work before it has to be blue.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

The above post was split from Art: does it matter?

Apeiron, that thread was not only fairly old, but also closed by me. Please be more careful about following the Forge rules for how to post to older threads, and make sure to read them fully to see whether they are closed. Closed threads should never be posted to, no matter what age they are.

Best,
Ron

[Peter Hollinghurst]

Having read through the closed thread, one thing did strike me that did not seem to be raised, and perhaps deserves some thought. Just from a visual design perspective, art performs a function regardless of how good or approriate it is-it breaks up and helps define space on a page. White space does this too, though as its a bit boring an appropraite illustration can help. Breaking up the space of the page can, if done well, enhance reading and help prevent 'reading fatigue'. It can also give visual clues that act as memonics for people useing the book for reference-rather than remember a page number, places in the book they use a lot are often identified by people by the illustrative content on the page. Just watch how many people (rightly or wrongly) find their way around rpg books sometime. This happens even more if there is no index, or the index is not helpful.
Just a thought. I am curious to know what people think about it.
Oh, and hi-Im a new poster here (well, apart from a casual post a while back on the Underworld game section).

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Peter, and welcome!

I agree emphatically with your point about the reference/placeholder purposes of art in role-playing texts. Since I play a lot of games in various stages of pre-publication design, I'm often working from draft text with no particular layout or illustration. It really drives home how important the picture of the naked snake-lady is in an RPG text - "just past it" is the table or rules-point that I really need at the moment.

The point was first brought to my attention by Greg Stafford; I talk more about my conversation with him regarding the issue in RPG layout.

Best,
Ron

[xiombarg]

I'm with Ron here -- while I don't consider art very important, personally, pictures DO become sort of "landmarks" where I can find certain sections in a large rulebook.

It would seem to be less important in a smaller text, however. If the game is 32 pages long, is having such landmarks so important?

[Alex Johnson]

Yes, art still remains important in a 32 page document.  32 pages of dense text is hard to follow.  I know, I've written this sort of game three or four times.  I'm a terrible artist, so I may solicit filler art at the Forge after I settle in.  But the key thing is that you still need art, tables, borders, or some sort of landmark appearing about every two spreads (or every three pages if you are publishing electronically).  How many times I've taken a 20-30 page document and flipped through 10 pages of it saying "I know that rule was right around here" only to find out after a half dozen re-readings that it was in fact just two pages after the end of the section I was skimming.  If there were a blood throne or a starship leaking air nearby you can bet I'd flip right to the image and skim just the next two pages for the passage.

[Lxndr]

I don't really have much to add except:  "Huh.  I've never even thought of using art as an impromptu bookmark.  And I'm pretty sure, though not entirely sure, that I've never seen anyone else use art that way.  Then again, few people talk about how they find things in books, so they might.  I dunno."  Anyway, it's a new revelation for me.  "Wow, people do that?"

[Shreyas Sampat]

They do in fact do that. I do in fact do that.

Obviously you can't do this in a book like Nobilis, where the art is so sparse you may as well use the ToC, but intelligently placed illustrations* (Exalted does this; it's easy to find the Archery Charms section because it starts with a dude shooting arrows at an army or something) are a powerful tool for visually-minded people.

And at that I will note: You always find it a revelation, Alex, when people find visual matter useful in any manner.

*: By "illustrations", I mean art that is relevant to the text it is adjacent to, as opposed to "art", which is just random imagery. I find that it's useful to be conscious of this distinction.

[Alex Johnson]

And at that I will note: You always find it a revelation, Alex, when people find visual matter useful in any manner.

I think you have the wrong name here.  Lxnr learned something new today.  I was saying that even in shorter works, properly placed illos are beneficial.  I'm a very visual person, but also a fan of sparse art in manuals.  I'd rather have the AD&D manuals to the Elfquest rules, but neither are perfect.  I'd say the best middle ground is something like the D&D Companion Set #3.

[Shreyas Sampat]

I was addressing Mr. Cherry, to clarify.

[Lxndr]

Lxndr = Alex.  (Well, technically Alexander, but I usually wind up going by Alex for short.  Most people here call me "Alexander", though.)  There's two Alexes in this thread.

That said, I don't ALWAYS find it surprising when visual matter is useful.  Character sheets are useful, for instance.  Fastlane is including a full-page reproduction of the roulette layout, because it is infinitely useful to have a visual representation when learning and playing the game.  

Although "the majority of the time" is probably a safe bet.  I'm definitely a staunch supporter of "as little art as humanly possible."  Illustrations are the "noise" one has to look past to get to the "signal" of the game (the text).

[Bankuei]

Hi folks,

I find art very useful for communicating a LOT more than simply bookmarking locations.  I consider art to be a means of transmitting important pieces of Setting and Color, as well as sparking ideas for Character.  

Take a look at any "Art of" or "Making of" book about a popular movie.  You'll see pages and pages of artwork designing an entire world, from fashion to vehicles to items, to hairstyles.  While movies are certainly more visually oriented, rpgs do well with visual information.  Consider the difference between trying to look up a cuirass and seeing a picture of it.  Even moreso when we're dealing with fantasy or science fiction creatures, props and vehicles.

Chris

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Chris (Bankuei),

I think the point is not that art only serves a bookmarking function, but that that particular function deserves more recognition and intelligent design-application than it's received in the past. All the other functions you mention are certainly relevant as well.

I'm also now realizing why spiffy or busy page-border graphics don't appeal to me - unless they're distinctive per chapter.

Best,
Ron

[Bob McNamee]

Amen to that Ron!

Especially in PDFs...they (borders etc) can be a real waste of ink... unless they have a useful purpose.

[Bankuei]

Hi Ron,

Agreed.  Many rpgs have had a very haphazard art design, usually either just "filling space" or "Hey! we got art!!!" instead of looking at the functional needs of artwork.

A more functional way of looking at artwork, is similar to looking at text:

-What does this artwork tell the reader?
-Does this artwork convey a concept hard to explain in words?  Does it simplify matters?
-Does this artwork fit in with the rest of the book(both art and text-wise)?
-How much is this artwork going to cost(either in cash or time to create)?
-Does this artwork improve the appearance of the game as a whole?


Chris