Prescience and teleportation: Sorcerers of Arrakis

[Manu]

I was wondering, how would you guys explain the power of premonition, and that of instant teleportation according to Sorcerer rules? Hint and Travel don't seem to quite cut it...am I wrong?

I'm kicking this idea of a Sorcerer/Dune crossover, with Mentats or Navigators having through their training unleashed a Possessor or Parasite version of their former self-as-demon, giving them the powers shown in the novels...Paul of course is wrestling with the baddest demon of all =) Spice could even be a parasite form of demon-stuff. The Bene Gesserit drive for genetic manipulation is obviously a sign of their demons' Need or Desire. The Weirding Way itself seems like an array of subtle demonic abilities. And so on. I have tons of ideas, but am afraid I might have to break apart the elegant Sorcerer system to make it fit the setting (which might be an alternate Dune, after all).

Thanks for any comments.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Manu,

I regret the negativity of this reply, but, well, I don't get it.

Why in the world would one use the Sorcerer rules for a Dune or Dune-like setting? The entire "point" is off. One's ambitions and faith, in Dune, are entirely one's own, and there are no entities, even semi-metaphorical ones, with whom to bargain or interact for power.

Dune's setting has much in common with the adventure science fiction of the 1940s, like Henry Kuttner or "Doc" Smith (or am I mixing him up with A.E. Van Vogt again; I always confuse those two). The ESP-style mind abilities, as best expressed in Alfred Bester's fiction, are considered trained physiological phenomena, much like one's fighting ability or competence with a pistol. They add to the exoticism of a setting or serve as rather gross plot devices, but they do not themselves represent a moral crisis.

Dune adds a semi-incoherent 60s tweak on this classic mode by introducing ecology, hallucinogenic drugs, and a lot of "you are the messiah" fulfilment-fantasy.

(Mind you, I'm going by the first novel only because I regard all the others as unreadable. I got through the next two books, and I'll never get those hours back. The later books remain unknown to me.)

Also, the system for the game is not intended to be applicable to anything and everything. Instantaneous teleportation and reliable prescience share a certain "handy" quality that is not consistent with the entire concept of demon abilities in Sorcerer.

(Side note: in terms of pure ability, combining Perception with Travel, both conferred to a person, generates an effect much like teleportation. It is neither instantaneous nor reliable.)

So I guess I'm just puzzled. One of the following situations must apply.

1) If the setting is the priority, then you are of course welcome to use or tweak any game system you like to role-play with that setting. I suggest that Sorcerer's system would be badly whacked out of true in the Dune-like setting - that is, various interacting variables are going to be much less or more important to one another than they are in the system as written. That's not a sin or anything; as I say, your use of the tools is your own.

2) If the system (and by extension the premise it reinforces) is the priority, then I think that the Dune setting will have to get seriously whacked out of true in order to support that premise, to the extent of losing its Dune-ness and becoming "desert SF Sorcerer" on its own.

I imagine this post will generate cries of resentment and plenty of examples of how the Sorcerer rules may be adapted to Dune. That's fine too. None of this post is to be taken as a directive or rules-guru pronouncement.

Best,
Ron

[Manu]

Ron,

You are apparently not a big fan of the Dune setting to begin with :smile:

I think you didn't get my intent, which is to *transform* the Dune assumptions to make them fit Sorcerer, because I think, and we obviously don't agree, that changing the themes of Dune would yield an interesting result without destroying the setting parameters.

Besides, you might have overlooked several important points in Dune (If you didn't get into the latter novels, it's quite understandable); there IS actually an "entity", as religion plays a major role in Dune (remember the Orange Catholic Bible? and the Missionaria Protectiva?). Once Paul becomes the Kwizatz Haderach, his very essence, demonic of course, could channel demonic powers for many sorcerers (all in a very Dunesque fashion, of course...subtlety is the key, here).As far as bargaining for power, that's where my idea of a shadow-self demon comes in; and there we have the Sorcerer question of man's ambition and definition, just like some factions in Dune are struggling to define themselves, sometimes as beyond human. I have this thing inside me that makes me think at the speed of a computer, or fold space at will; what urges does it awaken in me? what is the ultimate price I'll pay for these powers? Those very powers I use for my fellow humans beings will very soon acquire a life of their own, and much more egoistical goals; What will I become after a while if I start catering to these newly found needs and desires? are they really mine after all?

The very fact that humans now take the role of machines and have maintained this status quo for ten thousand years is a huge moral crisis in a sense, although maybe not one that is felt individually at first. Dune is a world of slowly unfolding plans within plans, wheels within wheels...a bit like demons might live within humans.

I asked about teleportation for instance, because it is everything but "handy" in Dune...it involves radically transformed ex-human beings, and large scale travel. Is the price paid by navigators worth it? it isn't that different from the questions that riddle the sorcerer...these "sorcerers" went FAR to get what they wanted (power, mostly, of course).But that doesn't mean players have to take the same path.


So I guess I don't really understand the violence of your reply...It's just some weird crossover idea, fer cryin out loud! Not anymore more ridiculous than Anime sorcerer :wink:

But I'll take your answer to my basic question as "no"; Fine, I asked for opinions after all :smile:

Cheers,
Manu

[Ron Edwards]

Hey Manu,

No flame or thread-stopper was intended, and if the topic brings in tons of suggestions, then all to the better.

Also, my negative response isn't based on any (presumed) dislike of the setting. I'm strictly concerned with theme and "fit." I do agree with you that Dune, when coherent, addresses the prices and consequences of taking power upon oneself, and that the whole Ends/Means issue is the issue at stake.

It still strikes me that the Dune(-ish) setting requires a lot more tweaking to get Sorcerer-like than, say, the degree that Jared needed for the Cronenberg-style Sorcerer in Schism. Who knows, though? I am not the only voice. If others have some notions that clicks the system and setting together better, I'd be interested in hearing about them.

Best,
Ron

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Haha! Say me name two more times and I show up under your bed!

Speaking of Schism, it does deal with ESP and teleportation. It's still the low, low price of $6.95 and our operators are standing by...

- J

[erithromycin]

The key concept of Dune [all 6 of it] is destiny. It is all about the fact that these things are ordained, that THIS IS THE WAY THAT THINGS WILL HAPPEN, but at the same time, prophecy was also often wrong. Of course, that's just my reading, but that's it.

Sorceror and Dune, are, to my mind, not too incompatible, but the idea of bargaining is strange. It's not that Paul talks and bargains with some aspect of himself, it's that he makes a pact with history. He is the Kwisatz Haderach, but it isn't meant to be him. He is meant to be the father.

Actually, I'm now going to digress by asking if you've seen Jodorowski's Metabarons? It covers a  lot of what Dune does, but in a way that makes it French and pretty. Anyway.

That's what I think. There you go.

[greyorm]

"Pacting with history"

That gives me a crazy idea...a Sorc. game where demons are defined as things like that: forces of the universe (history, time, good, evil, truth, terror, justice, beauty, decption...I dunno, not a very good list off-the-cuff.  Anyone think of better ones, along the lines of history?  Hrm...Destiny, fate?  Culture?  Society?..well, things LIKE history, factual but nebulous)

Must be two damn early in the morning.

[erithromycin]

Well, to reflect Dune properly your 'daemons' would have to be things like History and Fate, but, at the same time, you would have entities like 'Kwisatz Haderach' that were accessible to select groups, either because of the ties available to them.

Paul and Leto III had the power to access their male ancestral memories, Paul became the Prophet, wandering in from the desert, and Leto bartered his normal existence to make a skin out of sandworm spawn, Arrakis then Rakis flourished, and when he died all spice was gone. Sort of. It gets a little complicated, and it's been about a year since I last read it. Anyway, I digress. There are vast bargains made in the Dune series, and Sorceror covers that sort of thing quite well. You have to change what the things you bargain with are, but that's it. What I'm confused about is why teleportation and prescience are needed in a Dune game.

I think that the Guild Navigators just use Travel, but the target is not themselves but the Heighliner that they are in, and that there is no prescience in Dune, just lots of prophecy. 'Course if'n you wanna have prescience I recommend either of the systems mentioned in recent rpg.net columns [I forget who by, but I remember being surprisingly impressed] where players could ask people what their intentions were [great for LARP], or 'rewind' combat having seen what's going on.

That gets you onto uses of Prophecy [big P!] in games, which is probably a big old RPG Theory topic, one which I think Ron with his occasional GNS evangalism :smile: will want to stick his oar in. On you go. Go on.

Of course, in a Dune game, you've also got to deal with the weirdness engendered by the field technology. It rewards planning and skill, which Sorceror covers [because Ron made such a good job (this is degenerating into ego stroking, sorry)] but, ultimately, if you're going to do this sort of thing you had best reflect the setting, and Dune is a little big to fuss with.

I might share the hell of trying to get a Dune LARP done in Actual Play, but since it didn't happen I'm not sure that's allowed. Still, it's a warning. In Sorceror you've got a great way to get things done, and in Dune you've a great place to do it, but, like Ron, I'm not sure that they belong together in this project. After all, there are two Dune RPGs, maybe more if you count net projects. Go have a look. Right, now I think I'm done.

[Dav]

If you are trying to nail the thematic elements of Dune (i.e. fanatic=bad), then you can, by all means, utilize Sorcerer effectively.  Likewise, having a high price for power is also very good for fitting Sorcerer to.  

I agree with Raven, that a true 'porting of Dune to Sorcerer is hard, mainly because the equipment and tech of Sorcerer is specifically created with the intention of being "background noise".  (Meaning, nobody really cares what gun you have... unless it is an object demon)

However, the whole, are we men or gods question of Dune, and the use of SOrcerer would fit wonderfully, in my opinion.  I tried to utilize a bit of the hard-edged, not-your-world pain of gaining power in Hellbound (which, by the way, is NOT Dune-based or similarly done... more Kafka).  However, you could do well with it, I think.  I know Ron has a great distaste for Dune (though I keep telling him that Chapterhouse is actually a good read), however, if you can pull it off, he won't be displeased.

I would say give it a whirl.  If you can make it go, then I'd play it.  However, I would think that some of the Dune-ishness has to, necessarily, drop away to expose more the conflict elements of the series, rather than setting themes.  Man vs. ?

Anyway, my two cents.  Take them and run.


Dav

[Blake Hutchins]

Without addressing the game issue, I'd agree with Dav and say that Chapterhouse and Heretics are indeed good reads.  I didn't care for the other books following the original.

Best,

Blake

[Mike Holmes]

OK, no big surprise, Dune is very close to my heart. I like all the books, every one of them, as much as anything else I've ever read. Trying to nail down a single theme or Premis in Dune is folly. Dune is about religion, power, authority, fame, worship, plans, deciet, ecology, evolution, the mind, the nature of time and space; and more importantly how all these things relate to each other.

OK, I'm a raving fanboy. So.

Anyhow, I think that you might be able to apply Sorcerer to Dune, but I'd agree with Ron that the tight premise of the Sorcerer design gets stretched awfully large to cover things.

Instead of the Sorcerer Premise you need a system that covers, "What will power do to you once you have it?"

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

"I know Ron has a great distaste for Dune (though I keep telling him that Chapterhouse is actually a good read), however, if you can pull it off, he won't be displeased."

Now waitaminute here ... I have a lot of fondness for the first book despite its ultimate shallowness; it reminds me of the last days of SF decency even as it heralded its subversion by the publishers. I avidly watched the recent TV version.

So - are we going by that first book or by the Chapterhouse & Heretic books? If it's the first alone, then I stand by my former comments (ie the conflicting passions are too centered in "the human" to be easily expressed by Sorcerer rules without tweaking). If it's the latter two, then I haven't the faintest idea.

But let's back WAY up and examine Manu's questions .... I find myself asking, "Why are we bothering to model the Navigators' power," for instance? This is not GURPS. We are not trying to model any and every physical event with a mathematical simulation, but rather trying to identify points of conflict and power-struggle. And in the book as I know it (the first only), the Navigators are bluntly "given." The mechanics of their abilities are totally uninteresting; what matters is that they provide the necessary opportunity for interstellar travel, period. Under no circumstances is the variation or details of a Navigation important to the story. Hence - no need to have rules to deal with it.

What matters instead is the Navigators' need for Spice, which is arguably demonic in nature ... and the same could be said in a different way regarding the ability to summon and control the sandworms. Now THAT would be a much more nuanced and rules-requiring situation, because dealing with these things is a key issue in the book. ... Oh, and Ahlia is very clearly a halfbreed as described in Sorcerer and Sword ...

H'm. All right. Now that I'm out of "simulate that Mentat" or "simulate that Navigator" mode, and now that the demonics are firmly ensconced into their localized applications, this whole thread just coalesced for me.

H'm twice. Keep going, folks. Clearly today I'm the one in the second-to-front row of desks, with knitted brows.

Best,
Ron

[Bankuei]

  Well, if nothing else, Sorcerer certainly fits Emperor Leto.  He begins with embryonic sandworms as a form of living armor/exoskeleton/extra muscle layer which slowly merges with him as a symbiont into the sandworm/human thing he later becomes to be the God Emperor of Dune.  Parasitic Demons anyone? :smile:
  He then clones Duncan Idaho(Passer) for his amusement over and over for a few millenia...

Just a couple of examples that would work from Dune.

Bankuei

[erithromycin]

Actually, Ron, the navigators do have to pay a price to be able to get people places. They need the spice, and it warps their flesh and their minds.

What spice could do is give people access to internal powers, so, um:

Parasite, need is spice, gives user...

Actually, that's a little odd. Can a parasite bestow an additional cover on the host? Can cover be given? That might be the best way to work it. The bigger the 'bonus', the more spice [for the Kwisatz, Ben Gesserit], to represent race memory.

For navigators, spacial perception [one of the sensey ones] and Travel. Lots and lots of Travel.

Mentats would need something that could cope with them being good at their jobs [cover], but alien and cold [humanity, I suppose]. The need issue's a little odd, there isn't really one from the book, but Lynch's mantra might be quite cool.

The Ben Tleilax are either passers [gholas are created to resemble people, but may rebel like Duncan Idaho eventually does] or hosts to machines that cost them their humanity.

Fanatics don't actually have any power, just lots of will.

Which leaves, um, nothing. Characters who aren't 'sorcerous' are going to get mucked about something chronic. There may be some way to represent fields as 'daemons' too, but then I think you hit an issue where you could be using the same process to describe three or four things that differ too much for that to be the case. Actually, S&S might help with the fighting part, but it still doesn't address the fact that there are going to be characters who don't get stuff.

Unless, and a big one, everybody gets to make deals with 'fate' and 'destiny' [which aren't really the same]. Leto II, Paul's father, barters a little of his soul to get Arrakis, and then holds out [a demonstration of resolve if ever I saw one] to try to kill Baron Harkonnen. Paul's trades are with destiny and spice [His [but not him!] line will produce the Kwisatz Haderach under the Bene Gesserit breeding programme, and he has to drink the water of life and face himself].

I'd have said St. Alia of the Knife was someone who managed a draw with a possessor [maybe a better thing for the Bene Gesserit actually] and then lost in an attempt to bind it again. Ser Harkonnen browbeat the rest of the ancestral memories down, and started to influence Alia as much in her attempts to control him as when he controlled her.

I'm going to go and look at the rules again. The pacting with History thing strikes me as quite cool, and I've an idea or six brewing.

Hmm. All this Dune thinking has made me itch to read it again, but first I must finish LOTR. Now that might be an interesting thing to try...

drew

[Dav]

Okay;

This one strays a bit, and requires a few leaps of intuition to keep pace, but:

The breeding program is nothing more than an extended ritual to bring together separated parts of a universal demon.  The spice, as a Need, is fine.  (Drugs, where are my drugs?!)

Each family holds a single piece of the overall demon within themselves (it is a parasite).  That piece is sentient enough to operate on its own, but Desires to be brought together, and not according to schedule.  Thus, the pieces cultivated by the Navigators deal with Travel, Hint, and various Perceptions.  The Bene Gesserit holds Command, Hint, Perceptions, Link, etc.  

Each family brought into the fold of the DNA pool party increases the power, and the Need for Spice, and the Desire to bring in the rest.  Eventually, the fully-formed demon is created (Kwisatz)... it becomes Possessor (as in progressive demon forms, ala Soul)... maybe subsumes its host and becomes Passer.

The entire episode, then, is about the remergence of a demon that was split long ago.  Perhaps the databanks on Ix have more information?

In this scenario, then, Alia is not a person who lost a battle to a demon, but a demon that lost a battle to a human in utero.  And that human wasn't very nice at all...

We use Spawn for clones.  The increase in technology brings humanity back to the brink of when Kwitsatz was split to begin with, and thus back to the ages of darkness and neofeudalism.  Therefore, it is the demon that is "good" (in a very relative sense), and humans that are "bad" (again, relatively).  Tech=bad, as is the case for any post-industrial sci-fi concept circa 195?-199?.  We have conflict, premise, metaplot (which mixes with Sorcerer like Lutherans and Catholics, in my opinion), setting, and more info than you can shake a stick at.

The key, then, as Price and power, and gamble/reward (my own private obsession) are concerned is: who is in control?  Are you playing a human Sorcerer bending an internal demon to your whim?  Or, are you a demon struggling to bring about your own manifest destiny from within the frame of an aristocratic chemical junkie bent upon hedonistic revolution?  It can be a whirlwind of confusion that is or is not resolved, and you can always walk away wondering which half of the person was really in control, if any.

Anyway, that is my quick turnabout in terms of Herbert in the 60's and a Sorcerous application.

Comments?  Questions?  Prescriptions?

Dav