The Forge Archives

Hi everybody,

We just had our face-to-face chargen for Jesse's game.  I arrived with a whole new character, everything stripped down.  I did it in the order listed in the book, and the Kicker actually surprised me when I filled it in: It made perfect sense yet left open a ton of options.

I then added nothing more arriving only with the items off the PC and Demon descriptions listed below.

For the record, Jesse's running a Gothic/Fantasy (Ravenloft) setting, using the S&Sword rules.  The premise is: How far will you go to stop the pain?



Comte Karl Reingard

Appearance: A withered man late in life, hairless, with a beaked nose, his flesh loose on his bones.  He is fond of heavy robes to keep the chill out, year round, and usually adorns himself with jewelry from his rich coffers.  He's some 60 years old, and appears in a form of frozen decay.

Telltale: His heart beats very slowly

Humanity: 4

Stamina: 2 (just healthy)
Will: 4 (aristocrat)
Lore: 4 (apprentice)
Social Rank: Comte
Price: no senses of touch or taste left (-1 casual social interactions)
Kicker: His son has returned home after being gone for 20 years

The Demon: Brom

The Comte summoned him to avenge his wife's murder twenty years ago.

Type: Brom is a passer demon, looking like an intense, but adorable, eight year old boy.

Telltale: His golden hair

Abilities: Armor, Hold, Link, Psychic Force, Ranged, Shadow, Special Damage (rot flesh), Vitality

Stamina: 5
Will: 9
Lore: 8
Power: 9

Need: to live in absolute luxury: fine clothes, food, wine
Desire: to be around sexual jealousy

*******

The Session

We met on the patio of a coffee shop this morning in Santa Monica for two hours.

After discussing it with Jesse and my fellow players several ideas came up, either stirred within my own mind by our discussion or offered by my peers.

1) Karl is disappointed with his previous family life.  His wife died.  His son left.  He uses the eternally young Brom to build a perpetually perfect father son relationship that can make him happy for years.  He doesn't want the boy to grow up -- he wants things to stay just the way they are.

2) Karl dotes on Brom.  Not the verb I would have expected to encounter discussing relations with a demon, but the minute I said it out loud, I really knew who the guy was -- and all the elements of point #1 got fixed in my thoughts emotionally.

3) Tied to this: the son who has returned, now after 20 - 30 years absence, left Brom quite upset.  Though the son had his own (perhaps good) reasons for leaving, Karl felt betrayed by the departure -- which hastened his fall toward sorcery when his wife was murdered.  He clutched at any semblance of being in "control" of family life he could get.

4) One of the players referenced the parable of the "The Prodigal Son" in regard to the previous point -- and again, that cemented the issue.  The twist is that Karl might well prefer the "good" son who never changes to the son who has come home.  Conrtrasting Karl to the father from the parable clarified the character immensely.

5) After all this, I really got a clear impression of a man who spends little time paying attention to his estate.  He let's other people run things while all his attention is on making sure the demon his happy.

The demon's high Will and Power make sense to me: Karl is in thrall to the little boy, spoiling him, and it will take a lot of effort to get to overturn the boy's will.

6) How will all this turn out with the arrival of his son and heir?  I have no bloody idea.  And that was the coolest part.  Usually after chargen I fell like I've done a good job. This time I thought: "I wonder what's going to happen?"  One response is weighted to the past, this new one to the future -- actual play.

Very cool.

Take care,
Christopher

Christopher,

Ooh, cool.  And much creepier.  I can just see Karl recoiling in horror as a rebelious Brom synthesizes serial killer and spoiled brat.  I get visions of the ressurected son from Stephen King's Pet Semetary.

I think the thing that makes this character seem so much more interesting than the last is that, where the previous idea more-or-less fit into the game setting without disrupting it (the vengance-driven estranged character can fit most anywhere, with some cosmetic tinkering), this one is fully integrated into the mood of the game.  It eats and breathes and is woven from the conventions of gothic romance.  Karl's emotional attachments are uniquely suited to the game.

Good job, man!

Lon

Hi Lon,

And I think one of the keys to this was the fact that Karl was created first, independent of almost all backstory, and then attached to the world -- rather than the normal way -- a character chock full of incident and detail that may or may not engage the world.

Also, by leaving who the son is and all of his agenda to Jesse (I really have no idea who the guy is), the son is also an active threat!  For all I know Karl's flesh and blood might want take papa out!  Then Brom becomes -- monstrous -- but my best friend.

Again, normally the players and GMs, if they worked out this kind of detail before hand, would also be setting up who's heading in what direction, what the motives and possible conflicts might be, so we could start anticipating conflicts and  more.

In this case, no.  We can't anticipate anything.

Karl's son will have his agenda, set by Jesse.  I'll have mine, set by me.  But the first moment we meet those agendas might start shifting!  Who knows what the conflicts will turn out to be, who will be allied with who by the time all is said and done.

Take care,
Christopher

Very cool persona Christopher!

I love how every pore screams gothic¹ with a 'K.'  I wish I was your gamemaster; I know I'd love running your demon and the first thing I'd do is get one of the other player characters to be your son (but that's just me).

I know I'm on the edge of my seat for little more than an 'and then we...' play-by-play (perhaps in PM?  Please, please, please?).

Fang Langford

¹ Let the record show that, technically, I am what I have been told is called a 'crusty goth,' having gotten into the 'dark side' and Bauhaus back in the 80s.  (Did I mention my wife is an uberbauhausfrau?  And she designs better games than I do, sheesh.)

Hi Fang,

Thanks for the enthusiasm!

I know I'm planning to post in Actual Play after the game starts next Monday night.  (Perhaps Jesse will too.)   Since I'll try to keep the "and then" to a minimum -- perhaps other arrangements for a story log can be made.

What I find fascinating is getting so much better a response for a "character" that involved so much less work.  (Right again, Paul.)

*****

As for the son... I clearly have been hanging around here too long, because my first reaction was "No!" -- and it still is.  Let my Kicker be the mystery in the hands of the GM.  While my boy might be coming after me, he might also want to save me -- and from the "new son" I love so much -- leaving Karl with a horrible choice.  

It's just all so delicious in anticipation.  To tie our characters together like that would mean that a) the other player didn't get to freely make his own character and b) it would be two Players staring each other down, rather than entertaining each other through their PC's actions.  We might end up having a showdown later -- but that would be after the brush of NPCs had been cleared, and, like the end of a good movie, the primary characters are left to face off in the climactic beats.

My thoughts on that, at least.

Take care,
Christopher

Christopher,

I know that I got more excited about Karl because he has so much more potential.  The other guy, his story seemed closed, almost over.  There were only so many ways his story could play out.  Karl is still very open.

Lon

Quote from: Christopher KubasikAs for the son... I clearly have been hanging around here too long, because my first reaction was "No!" -- and it still is.  Let my Kicker be the mystery in the hands of the GM.  While my boy might be coming after me, he might also want to save me -- and from the "new son" I love so much -- leaving Karl with a horrible choice.  

It's just all so delicious in anticipation.  To tie our characters together like that would mean that a) the other player didn't get to freely make his own character and b) it would be two Players staring each other down, rather than entertaining each other through their PC's actions.  We might end up having a showdown later -- but that would be after the brush of NPCs had been cleared, and, like the end of a good movie, the primary characters are left to face off in the climactic beats.

Actually, I'd say the "No!" reaction is more traditional than Forge inspired; 'dependant non-player characters' are traditionally required to be the gamemaster's.  I am not a traditionalist, but I am sensative to their needs.  What I want to say is that you sell your fellow players short if you believe that they could not handle "the mystery" as well as, if not better, than the gamemaster.  It shouldn't be any harder for them to respond to your demon 'in ignorance' than the gamemaster (and this relationship should, I think, by your character's primary mystery).

(Frankly, it would be vastly entertaining if neither you, nor the gamemaster, knew whether your son was 'out to get you' or 'trying to save you,' especially if that player strictly practiced the ambiguity of action inherent in many Gothic Genre Expectations.  "Did he do that to save me or to damn me?  I can't tell.")

And again, I see no more problem 'tying your characters together' than having to make them both sorcerers in the first place.  I don't know about you, but sometimes I have a hard time making up characters, even from a 'one sheet' basis; if the group offered a chance to play someone else's estranged 'prodigal' son, I would not see that as restriction, but as structure (which is a great starting point when I'm 'blocked').  As for your two complaints: a) I don't see any limitation in being your character's offspring, a thirty year absense could completely remake a man; I'm really not seeing the limitation unless you think "I've just returned after twenty to thirty years to confront my father and discover this weird boy he's 'adopted,'" is a bad kicker (provided the player is thus inspired; I meant to say "try" to get one of the players to make their character your son, not force).

As for 'b,' I just don't see it.  Why would it come to a stare-down?  I would imagine each 'working behind the other's back' and play focussing on that 'not saying what you mean' way people have of fighting without 'fighting.'  Add to that the concept that, in my experience with Gothic literature, the actions of both characters are supposed to be ambiguous (on the 'is he trying to help me or hurt me?' level), I'd think most of the fun would be 'fooling' the other player into thinking the worst.  And that's all "PC's actions," baby.  (I just can't wrap my head around the "staring each other down" thing; can you explain what or why it is?)

Ultimately, I'm not talking about what is being done in your game; I'm making a statement on my practice of screwing down the Relationship Map as tightly as possible.  Such a relationship between your character and another player's should be the result of a group character creation session, not a request of the gamemaster.  Likewise, it should only occur if the 'son' player would get really inspired by having your Kicker as his Kicker.

What could be a smaller Relationship Map than having all the players being most of the other player's 'non-player characters?'  I know when I'm running Mekton II, with all of its Relationship Map mechanics, I take everyone's 'personal Relationship Maps' and see how few non-player characters I can get away with.  (Mekton II is a 'giant anime robot' game with heavy 'soap opera' background generation tables.)  It does make me come back to some players and go, "Could we change that 'personal slight' you suffered into an injury that left a telltale scar?" but it seems worth it when play begins exploring the details.

Back to the subject at hand; what would be more of a climactic showdown?  Each player versus the gamemaster (where the odds are tipped in favor of the player's thematic statement on the 'Premise') or player versus player (even odds with the winner getting the thematic statement)?  I'd argue the latter because you never know exactly who's going to win; will it be the Comte's favor of the 'demon boy,' will it be the son's attempt to save him, will it be Karl's reunion with his flesh and blood, or will it be his son's destruction of the 'demon boy' and its master?  I think the tension would be lesser if the son were only an NPC.  The conflict between the players' characters would be the "climactic beat."  Your results may vary; it was just one of my 'wild ideas,' nothing to look at here, move along.

Fang Langford

Hi Fang,

Thanks for all comments.  I think our tastes and temperaments are different enough that a lot of it comes down to that, and there I'll let it lie.

(Oh, but... I'm used to screwing all the PC relationships together.  The looser, Author stance described in S&Sword, with a great likelihood of our three PCs spending a lot of time in different places, with Jesse using scene framing to shift focus is very new to me, and torpedoes my usual need to get all the PCs hooked up.  I'm looking for to how this plays out for me.... To see if we actually are intrigued (as players, not PCs), in what the other players are doing with their characters while each of us is "off camera".  Again, new to me, and that's why I made the "hanging around the Forge" comment.  Tying the PCs too tight would ruin this experiment for me.)

Take care,
Christopher

Hi there,

Fang, one of the concepts that Jesse and Paul are working with stems in part from my "Cyberpunk example of tying things too tight," described in the first post in the Art-Deco Melodrama: the final chapter thread.

Christopher, I'll be looking forward to how things fly from here on. But before the pack of you get revved up into actual play, I have one question about the face-to-face character generation step. It is: how much did you get interested in the other players' characters during this process? What are you looking forward to seeing in action? Did you get the impression that you contributed to their enjoyment and creativity, as they contributed to yours?

Best,
Ron

Hey Ron,

I'm glad this gave me a chance to bone up on the Art-Deco Melodrama threads in a context that I could apply it.  It was very informative.

Quote from: Ron EdwardsOne of the concepts that Jesse and Paul are working with stems in part from my "Cyberpunk example of tying things too tight," described in the first post in the Art-Deco Melodrama: the final chapter thread.

However, your cyberpunk example seems to come from the idea of tying your players' backstories together, pretty much without their input (hence the groaning).  That is, how would you say it? deprotagonizing?  What I was talking about in the Mekton II example was that I would, during the group character generation session (or a group follow-up), pose questions that would allow me to more closely relate the characters subject to the players' interests.  They drive the show; I'm just suggesting hooking them together 'more intimately.'  Everything is 'above board.'

On some occassions, they go, "Cool, then his personal enemy would be my father!" and we go with it, or it's "Huh?" and I think of something else.  One of my fondest memories was when I suggested someone's persona's estranged brother might be the personal enemy of another's and before they got done, he'd lost an eye in a freak 'salad fork accident;' the two players were so 'hooked into it' after that.  Only rarely would I suggest what I have here, and only when it seems appropriate; normally I try to tie the players to the same points on the non-player character topography.

Now what's being discussed here isn't related to that.  The cut-off I'd use for 'tight-casting' is five or more players (since Mekton II has you create on the order of five to ten non-player characters per player, that can be quite a headache).  Below that, I'm going to need some major non-player characters to drive the ancilliary subplots 'towards' the players.  If I understand this situation there are only three players; in that case, I would do whatever I could to prevent such close relation; it's more an economy of scale trick.

(That and I was kinda inspired by how much fun it would be to watch two players go at each other while trying to obscure their own personal agendas in 'gothic ambiguity' all-the-while trying to color 'competing' statements on the central metaphor of the game.  Kinda creepy, but I enjoy watching that kind of interplay; it's less work for me.  Like I said, nothing to see here.)

Fang Langford

Hi Ron,

Good questions.

In fact, I was really explicit on this issue Sunday morning.  One of the players began the (understandable) verbal tactic of, "Well, my character will be interested in your characer because of this..." and I said, "Actually, what we're working toward here is that the players are interested in what the other's players characters are doing..." and Jesse and I broke out the whole idea of not wandering off when you're character's not on screen, and the goal of creating narratives that we're all interested in.  And I suggested that this was the time to make sure everybody's character was of interest.

One character had a great demon summoning story -- ends up marrying a thing that's very much like the woman he loved all his life and uses her to kill all the men she slept with while he was gone making his fortune to buy her a wedding ring.  But at the start of chargen he was still in the process of killing ex-suiters... I said, "What if that was over?  What else... what would be the new thing that happens?"  I gave your example of the demon binding story being the "origin" issue, and now we've got another story read.

He decided that though he now has the love of his life and she's perfect (though there's an issue of vermin crawling around inside of her on ocassion), he suddenly falls in love with someone who's not a cold-fleshed, murderous demon who's only Desire in life is to please him.  (Actually, the desire was something we all hammered out together.)

This was great, cause this whole guy's origin issue was about gathering the riches for the wedding ring and to marry her in style -- the ring, the wedding, the marriage -- very important to him.  (The wedding itself was the binding, Jesse suggested).  And now, having spent himself on vengeance, he's suddenly emotionally awakened to the possibility of a sane love.

Here the player was somewhat vague on who the woman was.  In fact, the woman didn't exist yet.  It was just a "realization" of love.  That didn't spark my engine.  It seemed soft, it seemed like play would be slow to start as he shopped around the NPC for a session or two.  I pressed a little bit for him to make a choice -- which woman, but he resisted.  I let it drop for a while, and then later, when we were working out the Desires and Needs, circled back around and he said, "Okay.  I want the most unatainable woman in the land.  I want her married.  And I want her of higher status."  Which is great, 'cause now he's threating not only his own marriage (that he entered hell to gain), but another marriage.  Jesse said, "What about the wife of the land's noble lord."  "Yes!" said the player.  I thought this was great.  We also worked out that the demon is real Stepford... In many ways she's the perfect wife and he's got every reason to stay... so the move on the noble's wife is complicated by the fact the demon really does try to please him in every way he wanted the woman of his dreams to please him -- except she's not real.

The other player is a naive sorcerer who hasn't bound yet.  A thief and warrior, he's in a high octane action Kicker -- and to be honest, I'm not hooked in yet.  I assume that will change.  Currently, he's been arrested, is hanging by chains, a fight breaks out in the lord's castle, the peasants are revolting, three factions are fighting for reason as yet unclear -- and he's got the change to be free for the first time in his life, after having been kidnapped as a kid and raised by an gang of brutal thieves.

In both early emails and in the FtF I really tried to find some way into this guy, offering suggestions about who are why this fight in front of him... But no go.  Essentially, he's got a chance to be free, there are three factions to choose from.  Without a demon with a relationship, without a Kicker that ties him to anyone.... I'm just not there.  It's action packed... But I'm not invested.

After all my bids failed, I suggeted, "Hey, can he have a Destiny?"  But Jesse said the five sessions for the destiny were too short for one, so I let the matter drop.

Let me be clear:  Jesse thinks it's fine, the third player didn't press the issue, I'm certain it will work out -- but given the nature of the FtF chargen, I thought I should selfishly try to get some action rolling that intrigued me on the PC. I know that he'd been beaten up.  I know he was about to be free.  But because none of the factions were clear, and he had no stakes in any of them, I didn't really care what was going to happen *now* in the kicker, or in the future.

But I was already so interested with the Marrying Man -- and basically the third PC was a big guy about to enter a fight and that was going to be that -- that I let it go.

So that's a wrap up on about that.

Oh, in the same way, I asked several times, "But my guy?  Is he interesting enough for  you to watch.  The Marrying Man's player really leaned in on that (he's the one who though of the important of the Prodigal Son), while the Bruiser's player...  I know he offered many words on this matter, but seemed less engaged about the matter.

Take care,
Christopher

Christopher,

All this sounds awesome, and I'm jealous.  

I'm minded of something you wrote in The Fifth Business, namely the part about maximizing conflict.  Sounds like the Marrying Man did this in spades.  Forgive me if you've already tried to nudge the conversation toward this end, but....  What would the Bruiser do to turn the volume to maximum?

Frex, I set up an action-oriented character for Exalted, an anime-inspired game we ultimately weren't able to get off the ground for scheduling reasons.  The ingredients for the max conflict for him came together like this:  he's a member of the ruling caste who becomes an outlaw when he manifests forbidden powers, his daughter wants to kill him because she thinks he's a demon who devoured her father's soul and possessed his body, and he loves his daughter more than life itself.  Kicker is he's just discovered a plot to assassinate his daughter.  All very action-oriented and not terribly deep, but still....  Is there anyone the bruiser cares about specifically, or is there something specific he wants to accomplish that involves a particular individual?  Making it deeply personal and then upping the stakes seems like the best recipe to create a player-involving conflict.

Best,

Blake

Hi Blake,

Any line of thinking like that seems sound to me -- but that's not what that player wanted. What we've got is what we've got.  The player seems like a good guy.  I'm certain it will work out well.

But to pursue the matter further would be, in my view, overstepping my bounds -- both because I'm not the GM (who made clear he thinks the character's Kicker is fine), but also because we did chargen yesterday.... And I don't want to start second guessing it.  

Take care,
Christopher

Hello,

I thought I'd step in here and explain a little bit about the demon-less low personal attachment kicker character's player's normal gaming  style.  He is, in general, a VERY VERY Setting focused Simulationist.  And in general, he really dislikes what he calls, 'characters born in a vacumm,' that is characters with no personal history, family, relationships, etc.  HOWEVER, he is also a bit of Determinist both in real life and his thinking about building characters.  This means he has a REALLY REALLY hard time thinking up characters without an a priori setting because he has no understanding of the geological, socilogical, political and cultural factors that would have shapped his character's life and general outlook.

This guy's favorite setting is Forgotten Realms (although he's not really fond of the D&D rules) because it's so 'complete'.  And even then he has some 'House Setting Elements' that fill in the 'logical' gaps.

He is also somewhat fond of the Western style of heroicism.  That is there's something out there and the lone hero(s) must make a stand because no one else will or is able.  He's currently the GM for our Forgotten Realms game and it is following this exact model.  So here we are the only four people in this upstart thorpe that actually have PC class levels besides the actual founders of the town and  he has PAINSTAKINGLY studied, planned and molded ALL the setting elements that threaten the development of this town: Slavers, Red Wizards, Predators, etc, etc.

But DESPITE all this I've noticed that he has a very strong although secondary Narrativist streak in him.  He often makes decisions because of their emotional impact.  I've seen him use Author Stance to bring about more interesting conflicts.  He's using the d10000 scaring table from Hackmaster for the D&D game not because it's 'Realistic' but because of the emotional memories and context that scars carry with them.  The way he talks about Movies and Books that he's enjoyed shows an understanding of what good stories are made of.  He's even complained that RPGs never really take into account personal factors in conflicts.  An example he used was from a film where a man used a musical pocket watch that belonged to his murdered daughter to unnerve the man who had killed her because it let the man know that he was facing the girl's father.

I fully plan to buy this guy a copy of The Riddle of Steel for Christmas because I think it will rock his world.  A detailed setting, crunchy realistic combat AND a measure of personal comitment (Spiritual Attributes).

So to get back to his Sorcerer & Sword character I approved the character because I know the player.  I know that the Kicker is not as impersonal as it looks because this is the first moment of genuine freedom and free thought this character has EVER had in his ENTIRE LIFE.  And I know that from this particular player's perspective that is a BIG FUCKING DEAL.

I also think this character some what falls into that catagory of hero that I, and perhaps Christopher, are a bit biased against.  That is, the kinds of stories that Ron and I have gone back and forth about numerous times where you kind of have a hero over here and a set of conflicts over there and yes, the character cares and acts as a moral compass but there is no IMMEDIATE personal investment in the going ons.  Conan, Picard, and Lew Archer (at least what little I've read of him) all fall into this category.  So, I bit back my bias and approved the Character because I fully believe that the character comes not from a rejection of personally commitment or caring but because the player is waiting to see what there is to care about before deciding on what he's going to do about it.

Just my thoughts.

Jesse

Hello Jesse,

I hesitated bringing up the other PCs at the chargen session, because I know you're such a sweetheart you'd feel the need to defend that one player.  But Ron asked..... And so I did.

Let me repeat, though, I had a great time with everyone.  I'm really excited about the game and all the PCs.  Ron asked if I offered suggestions to the other characters.  I did.  He asked if I'm interested in all the PCs as they stand.  No.

However, I am interested to see how Tich is going to become a protagnist.  He may have a ramp up speed involved, but I get the feeling that once he sees the other two PCs running around in all their glorious Author Stance he's going to want to play that way to.  So I am intrigued -- because I want to see how a character who has, reasons built into the back story, no connections with other people, becomes someone with connections.   Essentially I've assumed a kind of low-grade destiny ("Will make friends," or "Will find a place in society" or something), and look forward to seeing how that plays out.

But I think the whole game's going to work great.  I hand never met the other two players before and felt immediately comfortable with them.  I really trust the Tich Player's instincts to rise to the occassion.

Take care,
Christopher