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In GNS Model Discussion

4/8/2004 Storn: My break with GNS
Let me state up front, I think GNS is an interesting attempt to define Player behavior...but WAY too rigid. And too complex. If you cannot tell me a definition in…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Storn, Ron Edwards, Valamir, ethan_greer, Lxndr, coxcomb, Paul Watson, Dev, greyorm, Alan, Matt Snyder, Christopher Kubasik, M. J. Young, Andrew Norris, montag, Paganini, Seth L. Blumberg, BPetroff93, Henri.

4/8/2004 Alan: Does internalization characterize simulationism?
John Kim's essay, Immersive Story Essay, and a quick study of the The Threeway Model FAQ triggered some ideas for me. Can…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Alan, Ron Edwards, RDU Neil, Valamir, Gordon C. Landis, M. J. Young, Walt Freitag, Caldis.

4/8/2004 Alan: Acting as Gamist Play
Hi all, Recently I've read two threads, Regarding the nature of roleplaying and Immersive Story Essay. They've triggered several ideas, but here's…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Alan, Gordon C. Landis, contracycle, Seth L. Blumberg, Matt Wilson, pete_darby, Mike Holmes.

4/8/2004 Silmenume: The Limiting Action of Sim is Character
In an earlier thread, Player action/reaction to Situation key to CA, I had discussed that CA can only be measured and seen in operation in the address of Situation; everything…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Silmenume, Caldis, RDU Neil, Vishanti, M. J. Young.

4/7/2004 timfire: Gamism or System-driven Sim?
Hopefully I can express myself, this is something I've thought about for a while, but have a hard time putting into words. First background: My prefered CA Sim, but I…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: timfire, Ron Edwards, RDU Neil.

4/6/2004 scobie: gns for non-game rules systems
Just a provocative questions at the moment but might the GNS approach apply to other non-creative agenda driven rules systems? I am currently writing a paper on rules theory in…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: scobie, M. J. Young, Andrew Martin.

4/6/2004 Henri: Coherent Sim Games?
When I look around at the Forge community games I see a lot of games that are intentionally coherently Naratavist (or Nar-facilitating, etc. etc.). There are also a few that…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Henri, Ron Edwards, Marco, Dev, Seth L. Blumberg, ethan_greer, Landon Darkwood, John Kim, M. J. Young.

4/5/2004 myripad: What am I playing?
I wasn't sure whether to post this here or in the Actual Play forum, so if I'm the wrong place, please let me know. I'm sure this has been asked…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: myripad, trechriron, Emily Care.

4/5/2004 RDU Neil: Sim story
Setting aside the "Does Sim exist as a CA" conversation for the moment. Question. Does "Sim story" exist? By this I mean... I have seen and played examples of "Sim…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: RDU Neil, Landon Darkwood.

4/3/2004 Jaik: Gamist->Sim Conversion
Reading through the Primal Gamist thread prompted this idea to me: Many new players come to RPGs as gamists (think 10-13-year old boys playing D&D. Yes, this stacks the deck.…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jaik, montag, talysman, ethan_greer, M. J. Young, contracycle.

4/2/2004 Noon: One liner GNS
A couple of threads ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4267 and http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4414 ) prompted some questions in my mind that I finally managed to figure out answers for. Particularly the second thread, which asked…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Noon.

4/1/2004 Sean: Social Mode Redux/Response to Cruciel
In another thread, Cruciel suggested that the proposed Social Mode was a subset of Sim. My response: - One could have Sim play aimed at Exploration of Participants, or (to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Sean, clehrich, M. J. Young, beingfrank, cruciel.

4/1/2004 ethan_greer: Primal Gamism
So, lots of smart people have shaped some common bodies of thought that boil down to the following little factoid that will operate as a given for the remainder of…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: ethan_greer, Sean, Ron Edwards, greyorm, cruciel, Valamir, Balesir, sirogit, BPetroff93, M. J. Young, contracycle, C. Edwards, Jaik.

4/1/2004 Balesir: Yet Another Newbie Take on GNS...
Hi! I'm new here, so first a brief introduction. My name is Andy Gibson, I live in the Northeast of England and my background encompasses engineering, IT and commercial planning.…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Balesir, RDU Neil, Alan, Ron Edwards, rafial, greyorm, M. J. Young.

4/1/2004 Storn: Creation & Agenda
Okay, I'm reading two threads, my own that I started; Gm is god. And the Hard Question part deux. And Hard Question takes as a link to an older discussion,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Storn, Ron Edwards, Walt Freitag, Alan, M. J. Young.

4/1/2004 M. J. Young: The Hard Question extended
I'm a bit miffed that Neil's thread The Hard Question got closed so quickly after such a shocking and, in my view, wrong-headed turn. In essence, the thread began…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: M. J. Young, Valamir, beingfrank, RDU Neil, clehrich, Ian Charvill, Silmenume, contracycle, Storn, Ron Edwards, cruciel, Rob Carriere, pete_darby, Bankuei.

3/31/2004 cruciel: Removing the Incentive for Gamism
I've been milling over something for a while now, and given the current threads it seems like an appropriate time to ask this question. The typical way to deal with…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Jasper, ethan_greer, coxcomb, Bankuei, M. J. Young, Ben Lehman, Rob Carriere, John Kim, Umberhulk, Jack Spencer Jr, Amadeus, contracycle, pete_darby.

3/31/2004 montag: Cross-cultural "data" on Gam vs. Sim
Alright, I'd like to add to the debate on the "naturalness" of Sim play, by having a look at some cross-cultural "data" from Germany. Previous relevant threads include (from earliest…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: montag, Valamir, Ian Charvill, pete_darby, Ron Edwards, M. J. Young.

3/31/2004 Storn: God/god of the game.
Over in Nar Hard Knock Life thread: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10469 This was said: 'the DM is God' thing That being in the context of 80's game text... not as a confirmation. Inf…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Storn, Ian Charvill, Sean, Jack Spencer Jr, Blankshield, coxcomb, Valamir, Gordon C. Landis, M. J. Young, Jasper, Ron Edwards, Paul Czege, RDU Neil, Emily Care, Noon, pete_darby, Rob Carriere.

3/31/2004 ethan_greer: The Nar Hard Question, Factor 1
So, over in this thread, I raised some points that I'd like to discuss further. Three of them, actually. This is the first one. Many (many many) Sim game texts…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: ethan_greer, coxcomb, Ron Edwards, Valamir, Sean, Ian Charvill, montag, Gordon C. Landis, Rob Carriere, contracycle.

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In GNS Model Discussion

4/11/2004 Seth L. Blumberg: Retrofitting of Narrativist reward systems
[quote="On another thread, M. J. Young"]I'm a stickler on this point. A coherent reward system has two prongs: [list][*]What conduct is rewarded. [*]How the reward is used. [/list:u]If you give…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Seth L. Blumberg, Bankuei, Shreyas Sampat, Ron Edwards, xiombarg.

4/13/2004 cruciel: Conflict Resolution and Gamism
This is a lot of junk all strung together. Hopefully it'll make sense at the end. ***** Once upon a time I started to shift my play more towards conflict…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, coxcomb, M. J. Young, ethan_greer, Ron Edwards.

4/13/2004 cruciel: Missing Lobe Shift as Gamist Tell
Wow, that subject title doesn't make any sense, does it? (Everything contained herein subject to the disclaimer that I am not a neurologist, psychiatrist or anything else remotely knowledgeable in…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Eero Tuovinen, montag, beingfrank, Rob Carriere, John Kim, M. J. Young.

4/16/2004 sirogit: Steps to addressing premise?
What do you do in your Narrativist games to encourage the addressing of a specific premise? I'm being abit critical of my own attempts to brainstorm premise-addressing techniques as to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: sirogit, Ben Lehman, BPetroff93.

4/19/2004 trechriron: Pitfalls of Nar Design (point 4)
Point 4 (summary): Sole reliance on deepening and detailing any aspects of exploration are misguided... I am confused on specifically what this is referring to. Is this addressing weather generators,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: trechriron, Jack Spencer Jr, Ron Edwards, John Burdick.

4/19/2004 Ben Lehman: Gamism and Narrativism
I have been thinking, recently, apropos to lumpley's Arranging the Pieces of the Game as to what really defines Narrativism and Gamism, at a base. I think that there…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ben Lehman, Eero Tuovinen, Rob Carriere, greyorm, Doyce, Ron Edwards, beingfrank, M. J. Young, pete_darby, Valamir, contracycle, Walt Freitag, Emily Care, Ian Charvill, cruciel, DannyK.

4/20/2004 M. J. Young: Alignment and Premise in D&D
I feel silly doing this, but over in Ben Lehman's Gamism and Narrativism thread a side issue emerged regarding whether D&D had within it the possibility of addressing premise…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: M. J. Young, Ben Lehman, NN, contracycle, BPetroff93, Noon, myripad.

4/20/2004 Cemendur: The GNS of Fishing
[quote="Gaerik"]It's like trying to discuss "sports" without defining what a sport is. Some people consider fishing and churling (I think that is how you spell that) to be sports but…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Cemendur, Gaerik, Blankshield, M. J. Young, Doyce, Ron Edwards.

4/21/2004 Gaerik: A Plentiful Plethora of Panoramic Premise
Okay, so my title for this topic is a little ostentatious. Sorry. My questions for the Narrativist experts out there multitudinous but they all revolve around having multiple premises in…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Gaerik, BPetroff93, Ron Edwards, Eero Tuovinen, GreatWolf, pete_darby, Matt Wilson, M. J. Young.

4/22/2004 Bankuei: Lazy Reward System & the missing CA
Hi folks, I recently picked up BESM D20, and looked into the reward system. You have the industry standard rewards for "overcoming a challenge" and "good roleplaying", both of which…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Bankuei, Halzebier, M. J. Young, myripad, contracycle, Peter Nordstrand, rafial, Mike Holmes, DannyK, Lxndr, montag, John Kim, Jack Spencer Jr.

4/23/2004 cruciel: Removing the Incentive for Narrativism
This is a followup/companion thread to Removing the Incentive for Gamism This time I'd like to look a how one might fail to support to Nar. This one is much…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Caldis, sirogit, Bankuei, Jack Spencer Jr, clehrich, Noon, DannyK, Ben Lehman, contracycle, Alan.

4/23/2004 cruciel: Successful Resolution and Narrativism
It's time for yet another half-baked Jason idea. Considering your traditional randomizer aided resolution system from a Nar perspective, success or failure of resolution should not be the concern. As…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Jaik, BPetroff93, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards, trechriron, Bankuei, Noon, Alan, Jack Spencer Jr, Matt Wilson.

4/26/2004 Eszed: CS Lewis and Why System Does Matter
So I'm reading some CS Lewis this morning, and run across this: There are different kinds of reward. there is the reward which has no natural connexion with the things…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Eszed, ejh, Shreyas Sampat, Garbanzo, John Kim, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards.

4/28/2004 Michael S. Miller: Audience Thrills & Creator Thrills
In thinking about ways to explain Narrativism to folks unfamiliar with the Forge & Ron's essays, I've hit upon something which might be useful to others ... or it might…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Michael S. Miller, Ron Edwards, Noon, Mike Holmes.

4/30/2004 montag: Simulationism without Force?
Short version: Simulationism without Force: Is it possible? What does it look like? Long version I'm currently having a debate with a fellow player GM, about our extent of co-authorship…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: montag, Eero Tuovinen, Ron Edwards, GreatWolf, Andrew Norris, Ian Charvill, M. J. Young, John Kim.

4/30/2004 timfire: The importance of creation in Sim
I have some muddled ideas that I've been thinking over, and I thought I would bring up for discussion. I've been thinking about the "it" of Sim. In the infamous…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: timfire, Ian Charvill, Walt Freitag, M. J. Young, Silmenume, Caldis, Ron Edwards, talysman, Noon.

4/30/2004 redwalker: Nostalgia: breaking Traveller with hard sci-fi simulationism
All the Traveller grognards reading this will probably remember the black globe generator -- a force field of black energy which could absorb anything that the Traveller universe could throw…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: redwalker.

5/4/2004 cruciel: The Whole Model & Venn Diagrams
This is a split from Forget Immersion: Sympathy vs Empathy. There may not be too much to this topic, but... Maybe I just don't get the whole Venn diagram thing,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Walt Freitag, Ron Edwards, Rob Carriere, Jack Aidley.

5/6/2004 cruciel: Narrowing the Definition of Social Contract
This is a split from The Whole Model & Venn Diagrams. Hell, I'm just going to quote what I said in that thread. I see at least two distinct layers…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, jeffd, Caldis, Ron Edwards, Blankshield, clehrich, Mike Holmes, Wormwood, Emily Care.

5/11/2004 Silmenume: What is the metagame goal of Sim?
Roleplay is about us, the players, making decisions. In Gamism its what Challenges are to be met and then addressed in what fashion. In Narrativism it’s what Premises are to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Silmenume, Ian Charvill, Mike Holmes, Sean, Emily Care, Caldis, M. J. Young, Jonathan Walton, Jack Spencer Jr, contracycle, Ron Edwards.

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