Topic: A few questions
Started by: Bluve Oak
Started on: 3/4/2004
Board: HeroQuest
On 3/4/2004 at 7:41pm, Bluve Oak wrote:
A few questions
Hi there.
Just asking about for an intelligent magic system http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10098 and was advised to check out Heroquest.
Before I part with my hard earned cash I was just wondering if you could help me out with a few questions?
I'm keen to play a game that has fairly traditional fantasy approach (which I don't think HQ is but I'm willing to give it a try) if I think I will enjoy it!
Can HQ have lots of hack and slash combat scenes?
Does the system give the players the illusion that it is realistic (enough)?
Can you have fireballs vs sword dudes and does it make sense?
Does it have spells?
Do you think I would like it, wanting a fairly heavy magic/combat story?
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 10098
On 3/4/2004 at 8:45pm, Harrek wrote:
Re: A few questions
I guess I'll de-lurk and give this a try. Welcome, Bluve Oak.
Bluve Oak wrote: I'm keen to play a game that has fairly traditional fantasy approach (which I don't think HQ is but I'm willing to give it a try) if I think I will enjoy it!
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "traditional fantasy." Something like Tolkien? Or like D&D? Or the mishmash of modern fantasy novels? HeroQuest isn't much like those. The world of Glorantha draws on other sources for inspiration, and the current ruleset takes a different approach than other games.
The initial focus is on Dragon Pass, which is kinda like Vikings vs. Romans - but take that with a huge chunk of salt. It's way more complex than that. HeroQuest Voices is a good (free!) way to get a taste. The default cultures are Heortlings (Vikings) and Lunars (Romans). Get it here:
http://www.glorantha.com/products/hqvoices/index.html
Can HQ have lots of hack and slash combat scenes?
Yes, if you want it to. You could also have ferocious basket-weaving competitions. The rules are very flexible. However, if you're used to a system that tells you what happened in detail, you may have difficulty adapting.
Does the system give the players the illusion that it is realistic (enough)?
When you say 'realistic,' do you mean in terms of the system, or the setting? I'm not sure that it will satisfy you on either score, to be honest. The system requires a great deal of interpretation from the players - some people don't like that. The setting is based on myth, so all kinds of strange things can happen; things are are not at all 'realistic.' It does all hang together in a plausible way, though.
Can you have fireballs vs sword dudes and does it make sense?
Sure, although Gloranthan magicians don't usually throw fireballs around. Also, everyone has some sort of magic. It might be just the equivalent of a lucky rabbit's foot, but your character has it. There are four different types of magic described in the rules (and many more exist as yet undocumented).
Does it have spells?
Not exactly. Or at least not like you're probably thinking. There are "spells" - magical effects that characters can produce. Each type of magic calls them something different, and there are slight rules differences. However, there are no huge lists of spells.
All abilities in HeroQuest, including spells, are simply a name and a number. Most of what the ability can do is circumscribed by that name. This is another one of those issues that some folks don't like. Matter of taste.
Do you think I would like it, wanting a fairly heavy magic/combat story?
You can certainly tell those sorts of stories in HeroQuest.
Oh, one other thing: much of what I wrote assumes you'd be running HQ in Glorantha. You don't have to. Because the rules are so streamlined, it's dead-easy to port them to pretty much anything else. People have done Star Wars, Buffy, Dark Sun, Midknight. I'm sure some of them will chime in here with advice.
(Scripty? Brand? does Captain Spaulding every come over here?)
EDIT: one thing I almost forgot: it might help if you told us a little about other games you've played, and what you liked/disliked about them. Also, other than what you've said already, what are you looking for in your upcoming game? What does your group like? I hope you find the game that's a perfect fit - and maybe HeroQuest is the one.
---------------
Josh R.
On 3/4/2004 at 9:28pm, Brand_Robins wrote:
RE: Re: A few questions
Bluve Oak wrote: Before I part with my hard earned cash I was just wondering if you could help me out with a few questions?
I can try. Harrek already did a pretty good job, but I'll see if there is anything I can add.
Can HQ have lots of hack and slash combat scenes?
Yes. However, combat runs the same way that any other contest does, and so doesn't get singled out for special treatment. Also, as HeroQuest uses contests to resolve scenes/conflicts rather than tasks, its combats will feel different than most standard RPG combats.
(To be explicit: In most RPGs you roll and succede/fail at single actions: Can I climb the fence, then can I shoot the gun, then can I run behind cover before the guy shoots me back, etc. In HeroQuest you can end up rolling to solve the whole scene rather than tasks within it. Even when you do roll for individual tasks your success or failure at the task isn't important in regards to the task itself, but only to the greater conflict.)
Does the system give the players the illusion that it is realistic (enough)?
That depends totally on how you run it and how they interact with it. HeroQuest can give a fair to middling simulation of reality, but it relies on you to do so. The base rules are abstract, and how 'realistic' they become depends on what modifiers you use, what descriptions you use, and if you and your players all have a similar idea of what "realism" is.
In otherwords, the system doesn't give you realism. The system gives you tools that you can use to make realism if you want it.
A good thread about this, in the context of historical games, is here:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9317
And one on using the rules for Sci-Fi is here:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=977
Can you have fireballs vs sword dudes and does it make sense?
Yes, because all contests work the same. Of course, this also goes with my statements above -- what kinds of modifiers you put on there will change a lot of the contest, but in general magic vs sword is something HeroQuest will do well.
Does it have spells?
Harrek got this one. I'll add that there are different systems of magic (Theism, Animism, Wizardry) which work by slightly different systems -- but even then there are no lists of spells nor specific and set effects for spells.
And technically only Wizards cast spells. Animists bind spirits and Theists emulate their god with divine affinities. However, a lot of people here have done work on converting the magic for other systems, check out these threads:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9516
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8054
And for general discussion of magic, these:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewforum.php?f=13&topicdays=0&start=90
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=8063
Do you think I would like it, wanting a fairly heavy magic/combat story?
HeroQuest certainly can do that kind of story. I use it for that kind of story sometimes. However, the truth is that from your questions I don't know if HeroQuest is what you're looking for. It tends to focus more heavily on narration than simulation, and works very differently than most RPGs -- where as you said you were looking for something more standard.
However, if you try it, you may find you like it. A lot of other have, once they got their head around it.
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 9317
Topic 977
Topic 9516
Topic 8054
Board 13
Topic 8063
On 3/4/2004 at 9:43pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: Re: A few questions
Oops, cross posted this with Brand. :-)
Instead of responding directly, I'll be including Harrek's comments (hey, who let the demigod in!).
Welcome to the Forge the both of you.
Harrek wrote:I think that's very likely what he means. Standard or Traditional Fantasy in RPGs means something like "like D&D". Doesn't mean exactly, however.Bluve Oak wrote: I'm keen to play a game that has fairly traditional fantasy approach (which I don't think HQ is but I'm willing to give it a try) if I think I will enjoy it!
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "traditional fantasy." Something like Tolkien? Or like D&D? Or the mishmash of modern fantasy novels? HeroQuest isn't much like those. The world of Glorantha draws on other sources for inspiration, and the current ruleset takes a different approach than other games.
When he says "ferocious basket-weaving" he's not kidding. That is, HQ brings flavor to all manner of contests by having the system involved be just as complicated for these as for combat. Which means, that when the game isn't about combat it's just as interesting system-wise. Which means that action tends to develop more naturally.
Can HQ have lots of hack and slash combat scenes?
Yes, if you want it to. You could also have ferocious basket-weaving competitions. The rules are very flexible.
That doesn't mean less combat - it means when combat happens, it's more momentus.
I'm thinking he means plausible. I hope so, anyhow. Heroquest is as plausible as you make it with your narration, and enables you to do that well. What it won't do is try to be plausible for you. This requires effort, but when you put the effort in, it's about as plausible as you can get.
Does the system give the players the illusion that it is realistic (enough)?
When you say 'realistic,' do you mean in terms of the system, or the setting? I'm not sure that it will satisfy you on either score, to be honest. The system requires a great deal of interpretation from the players - some people don't like that. The setting is based on myth, so all kinds of strange things can happen; things are are not at all 'realistic.' It does all hang together in a plausible way, though.
Again, however, that means accepting the non-traditional approach.
I'll give an example, to make clear what we mean (forgive the camp):
GM: Krod the Barbarian comes to a ruin, and is suddenly beset by a giant lizard that comes snaking at him through the rocks, it's hard scales glistening in the sun. What is Krod doing?
Art (Krod's player): I meet it in battle! I want to slay it so I can fashion some armor from it's magnificent hide.
GM: OK, what abilities are you using?
Art (checking abilities on sheet): Swordsmanship 2W2, augmented with Mighty Thews +2, Sword of Ognar +8, Hates Lizardkind +3, Bladesharp Charm +2, Moormak's Awesome Thrust Spell +3... a total of 20W2.
GM: OK the lizard is gnashing at you with it's teeth, is armored, huge, yadda, yadda, a total of 5W2. Let's roll. <clatter> Hmm. That's a Marginal Success for Krod. Hmmm. You swing your magic blade mightily and manage to fend off the creature's bite. You smashes it again, and again, hoping to penetrate it's tough hide, but it you just can't seem to get through. Seething with hatred, you invoke the spell of saint Moormak, and due to the sharpness imparted to the blade manage to get it through the creature's armor under one scale. Thats the -1 Hurt you gave it. Just enough to barely scratch it, really, the lizard emits a terrible hiss, and flees. Giving chase, it goes down a hole and out of sight. Do you follow?
That's what's called a simple contest. One roll and the whole thing is resolved? Tired of relatively meaningless combats taking forever? HQ makes it easy.
On the other hand, if you want more "round-by-round" detail, then you use the Extended Contest rules. In the end, the system only tells you what mechanically happens to your character, it's up to you to provide the detail. But what's interesting is that it takes into account as much detail going in as you want to provide.
Yeah, not only does it make sense in terms of the power of magic vs. non-magic, but magic actually makes a kind of sense in play that it just doesn't in other games.
Can you have fireballs vs sword dudes and does it make sense?
Sure, although Gloranthan magicians don't usually throw fireballs around. Also, everyone has some sort of magic. It might be just the equivalent of a lucky rabbit's foot, but your character has it. There are four different types of magic described in the rules (and many more exist as yet undocumented).
Yep. What this means, however, is that you have access to infinite amounts of magic. Creating new magic abilities is a snap, and one of the really fun things about the game.
Does it have spells?
Not exactly. Or at least not like you're probably thinking. There are "spells" - magical effects that characters can produce. Each type of magic calls them something different, and there are slight rules differences. However, there are no huge lists of spells.
All abilities in HeroQuest, including spells, are simply a name and a number. Most of what the ability can do is circumscribed by that name. This is another one of those issues that some folks don't like. Matter of taste.
He's being modest, really. These are staples of HeroQuest. Heck, the title refers to magical quests not unlike the quest for the grail where no doubt you'll end up in all sorts of fights, using all sorts of magic.
Do you think I would like it, wanting a fairly heavy magic/combat story?
You can certainly tell those sorts of stories in HeroQuest.
But the rest of play will be just as fun, too.
Oh, one other thing: much of what I wrote assumes you'd be running HQ in Glorantha. You don't have to. Because the rules are so streamlined, it's dead-easy to port them to pretty much anything else. People have done Star Wars, Buffy, Dark Sun, Midknight. I'm sure some of them will chime in here with advice.Yep, I run in the old ICE campaign Shadow World. Conversion takes some work, but it's actually pretty fun, and if you need help, just ask here. Lots of folks to give you tips.
(Scripty? Brand? does Captain Spaulding every come over here?)
Mike
On 3/4/2004 at 9:53pm, Bluve Oak wrote:
RE: A few questions
Thanks for the replies.
It sounds like it is what I am after. What I would like is something similar to what Shane at another post specified http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=10078
Bizzare that he wrote exaclty the same thing I was thinking! HQ was recommended to him also.
EDIT: one thing I almost forgot: it might help if you told us a little about other games you've played, and what you liked/disliked about them. Also, other than what you've said already, what are you looking for in your upcoming game? What does your group like? I hope you find the game that's a perfect fit - and maybe HeroQuest is the one.
To tell you the truth Josh I only played D&D about 10 years ago when I was a youngen in school. But don't worry I have downloaded about 100 RPG's since then am looking to get back into gaming - and not D&D, too much crap. I like the freeform style, I don't need endless spell lists or charts but I still would liketo play an RPG that is:
* A great story
* Simple mechanics
* High action (magic and swords)
Possibly something Arthurian, Arabian Nights or Tolkeinesk.
P.S. Far out. Just read Mikes post as I was typing this. So are you saying that you just add together the significant elements on a characer sheet to determine the "dice level" for a conflict?
That sounds pretty cool.
It may be purchase time...
Forge Reference Links:
Topic 10078
On 3/4/2004 at 10:03pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: A few questions
Bluve Oak wrote: P.S. Far out. Just read Mikes post as I was typing this. So are you saying that you just add together the significant elements on a characer sheet to determine the "dice level" for a conflict?
That sounds pretty cool.
Yeah, sorta. You start out with a primary ability, the one that you're mostly relying on. The best way to check out the system as a whole is to download the quickstart at http://www.glorantha.com/support/GameAids.pdf
It may be purchase time...I think you're more than ready. :-)
Mike
On 3/4/2004 at 10:21pm, Bluve Oak wrote:
RE: A few questions
O.K.
Just rang game shop. They aint got it. I have to order it in.
When I gets me hands on its I'll give yaz all another bell an tell yaz what me thinks.
P.s. Don't know why I am talking like a pirate - perhaps the excitement of a new glossy RPG.
Thanks all.
On 3/4/2004 at 10:34pm, buserian wrote:
RE: A few questions
Hi Blue Oak,
Welcome.
Once you start playing, if your players balk at the $40 price tag but still feel a need to have the rules, they can download the games synopsis but can also get a "distilled" set of the rules in the $13 Hero's Book.
And as people have said (here and on other topics), don't let the setting intimidate or distract you.
buserian
On 3/4/2004 at 10:35pm, Bluve Oak wrote:
RE: A few questions
Just reading through the quick guide.
"What else can your hero do:
skills...
personailty...
possessions...
relationships..."
Relationships??? EL NEATO! I'm sold, hurry up Mr post man!
Cross posted with you buserian - Thanks for the tip.
On 3/4/2004 at 10:46pm, joshua neff wrote:
RE: A few questions
Bluve Oak wrote: Just reading through the quick guide.
"What else can your hero do:
skills...
personailty...
possessions...
relationships..."
Relationships??? EL NEATO! I'm sold, hurry up Mr post man!
Cross posted with you buserian - Thanks for the tip.
Oh, yeah, you can augment a roll with personality traits or relationship traits--or roll them as a primary attribute. ("I'm rolling my Member of Rising Moon Temple to sway the High Priestess." "Okay. The priest is rolling his Argue Ferociously, augmented by his Madly In Love With High Priestess Luxeria.")
HeroQuest jams like marmalade on toast.
On 3/5/2004 at 12:26am, Mac Logo wrote:
RE: A few questions
Bluve Oak wrote: Just reading through the quick guide.
<snip>
Relationships??? EL NEATO! I'm sold, hurry up Mr post man!
Yes. It's been posted before and it'll be posted again, but HeroQuest is the game where Frodo's Relationship with Samwise is a concrete bonus that can be used to augment Frodo's skills.
I hope you enjoy the game.
Cheers
Graeme
On 3/5/2004 at 3:00am, Lorenzo Rubbo-Ferraro wrote:
RE: A few questions
I think I have always been interested in my own settings and Glorantha has put me off. Even the smaller Hero Book is largely Glorantha and not all the rules. I know, as it has been said, that it can be easily converted, but it's a shame you can't just get the system.
Anyhowz I may end up liking Glorantha a whole lot so I will give it a go too.
I was just thinking about where I am at today and it's like this: I like heavily action/combat orientated play from small to epic proportions but I just loath the gunk that usually accompanies it. The stuff like: initiative roll, damage roll, armour roll, O.K. deduct 4 hit points, check for fatigue, check for blood loss blah blah blah. I'm also so totally over the basic 3,4,5 or 6 attributes that most systems have. Those crummy few attributes that affect every other god damn thing the character wants to do. If a character is good at swordfighting why not just give him a swordfighting dice/number instead of frickin strength + agility - armour weight modifier + skill blah blah blah...
I think I will like HQ too :-)
On 3/5/2004 at 8:45am, Bluve Oak wrote:
RE: A few questions
Can anyone direct me to any character sheets?
On 3/5/2004 at 9:38am, Mac Logo wrote:
RE: A few questions
Bluve Oak wrote: Can anyone direct me to any character sheets?
Sure here on the Issaries web site. Always a good source for your HQ needs. :)
Cheers
Graeme
On 3/5/2004 at 6:58pm, Bluve Oak wrote:
RE: A few questions
Thank you
On 3/5/2004 at 7:41pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: A few questions
Lorenzo Rubbo-Ferraro wrote: I like heavily action/combat orientated play from small to epic proportions but I just loath the gunk that usually accompanies it.
Here's what's really cool about HQ. The "gunk" becomes fun. In HQ, you might actually end up adding more numbers together to get your total in the end. Here's an actual example from my game of a total compiled by Brand.
Protection 18, augmented by Grant Strength +2, Bull's Strength +2, Durrant +2, Combatative +2, and Stern +2 for a total of 28The thing is that he basically scanned his sheet and came up with these. That is, he may have missed one or many abilities that pertain. Basically, what happens in a contest is that the player decides what they think is important, and put as much effort into finding those things as they want. So he could just have gone with Protection 18, but it was important enough to him as a player to find ten more points here and there.
In this way, the game is precisely as detailed as the player wants it to be. It also means that the slowdown in processing only occurs when it actually adds to the tension of the moment. Basically, instead of being a duty, determining your bonuses is a fun "right" that the player has.
Mike
On 3/5/2004 at 7:53pm, buserian wrote:
RE: A few questions
Mike Holmes wrote:Lorenzo Rubbo-Ferraro wrote: I like heavily action/combat orientated play from small to epic proportions but I just loath the gunk that usually accompanies it.
Here's what's really cool about HQ. The "gunk" becomes fun. In HQ, you might actually end up adding more numbers together to get your total in the end. Here's an actual example from my game of a total compiled by Brand.Protection 18, augmented by Grant Strength +2, Bull's Strength +2, Durrant +2, Combatative +2, and Stern +2 for a total of 28
One thing no one has made clear about this, just as a caution -- magic cannot be stacked quite so freely as non-magic. That is, you can usually augment with any number of mundane abilities (including personality traits and relationships) as you want. But when it comes to using magical abilities, even as automatic augments, you may not be able to use more than 1 or 3 at a time without taking extra time to prepare.
Also, so you know, the rules have an automatic augment and a variable augment system. The auto augments are what people have been describing. They have a set level based on ability rating, and there is no chance of problems with the augment itself -- it just happens.
Variable augments must be rolled for against a resistance, and so can fail. (Failure = you don't get that bonus, or you even get a penalty instead.) But, if you succeed well enough, you can get a larger bonus than if you just went ahead and used the auto augment.
This is somewhat akin to the difference between simple and extended contests. Most of the time, the augment isn't going to be important to a hero, and so you just use the auto augment. But sometimes, the auto augment won't be enough -- the player might need more than the auto augment can give him (perhaps to achieve a certain rating), or the player might feel that the augment itself is very important to the hero (such as the relatively low Relationship to Sister 17 being more important than just a +2 when she is raped and murdered by a Lunar soldier), and he might want to roll against it to get a +4 or +6 from it (to express his sheer anger and hatred at her death).
buserian
On 3/5/2004 at 8:04pm, Brand_Robins wrote:
RE: A few questions
Mike Holmes wrote: In this way, the game is precisely as detailed as the player wants it to be. It also means that the slowdown in processing only occurs when it actually adds to the tension of the moment. Basically, instead of being a duty, determining your bonuses is a fun "right" that the player has.
This, combined with the stuff buserian said about variable augments is all true, good stuff. I just wanted to give testimonial that it does help the game and does make the game fun.
It also does let “sword guy vs. fireball guy” work out interestingly and dramatically in the game. The example Mike gave above was (I think) from a fight were my holy warrior PC Thomas was in a fight with a Sorcerer who was casting a death spell at him. The sorcerer got to cast a spell, and Thomas got to resist with the things that make him who and what he is.
I really love that aspect of the game, because what makes your character special, what makes them the person that they are, will be relevant in game terms. The game actually supports your character becoming a protagonist by making the things they care about fuel them. Thomas is a holy warrior, and he uses magic fairly often, but he almost never casts spells – the holiness is a part of who he is and what he is, and the gamesystem lets that work for him. On the other hand, someone that is a spell caster can cast spells, and supplement them with the special features that make them unique (Iron Will, Knowledge Man Was Not Meant To Know, etc).
Really, it’s a great, great thing about HeroQuest – the players get to decide what matters, and make things that matter to their characters matter to the game.
On 3/5/2004 at 8:40pm, Harrek wrote:
RE: A few questions
Thanks for chipping in, all.
I have one other bit of advice for you BluveOak (and any other fence-sitters out there):
Make sure the other players in your prospective group are on board for HeroQuest. Sit down and talk about it first, maybe give them some examples from this forum and the free Issaries material. Especially focus on the mechanics - that's a sticking point for many people. If they know in advance what they're getting into, they're going to be more receptive.
I don't know why, but this game does not click for some folks (guess that's more-or-less true of all games). Don't let that kind of misunderstanding fester - get it out in the open, and if someone is sure they don't like it, don't try to force them. (If they waffle, sure, bring 'em in for a spin.)
Search this forum for Scripty's threads: he had a particularly memorable group implosion. That's the kinda uglyness you want to avoid.
Welcome to Glorantha, I hope you like it.
On 3/5/2004 at 10:04pm, Mike Holmes wrote:
RE: A few questions
Harrek wrote: I don't know why, but this game does not click for some folks (guess that's more-or-less true of all games).
It's quite simply because it does some fundamental things in ways that are very different from how other RPGs handle things. So 'Gamers" who are used to RPG meaning thus and such sometimes have trouble wrapping their heads around it. Interestingly, people who've never played RPGs find it easier to learn than other RPGS.
But here's the thing - I really think that it can appeal to anyone. Even the stodgiest gamer can enjoy it if you get them to agree to try it honestly.
Unlike Scripty's players, who really never wanted to learn. Take that example with a grain of salt. These guys weren't worth playing any game with, their behavior was despicable. Given relatively normal human players, HQ works great.
Mike
On 3/5/2004 at 10:57pm, Harrek wrote:
RE: A few questions
Mike Holmes wrote: But here's the thing - I really think that it can appeal to anyone. Even the stodgiest gamer can enjoy it if you get them to agree to try it honestly.
Sure - I think that's what I was trying to say. I'd guess most people on this forum had to cope with that "head-wrapping" - if HQ wasn't the game that did it, some other game did. For some it's easy; this may even be the game they've always been looking for (and never knew it). Others never get past that point.
It's that "honestly trying" bit that's tricky. That's why I recommend talking about the game first. I'm not trying to scare anyone away, not at all. I just want to warn newcomers of potential pitfalls.