Ok, right off the bat I will state that I am no businessman, and have no knowledge of business practises. I don't know how to take advantage of "three-tiered marketing", and hell, I don't even know what the three tiers are.

Also, whilst I certainly appreciate the help and effort of finding links for me to follow up, I tend to find that I get frustrated because I can't reply to them. That said, if my questions can be specifically addressed within a couple of previous threads, I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction. Thanks.

There are really only two reasons why I will sell my RPG Eclipse when it is finished. a) Because I understand the devaluation that comes from the perception of a free product, and I would like people to take my game seriously. And b) It will be fully illustrated by myself, and I value my art. The whole "putting time and effort into the game" part will be repayed in full the moment someone thinks "hey, this is pretty cool".

So here is my marketing strategy, which I am starting to question:

Phase 1 - Release non-illustrated and partially incomplete play-test version. This play-test version will of course be free, and downloadable from my website (not complete yet), and I will advertise this fact here and at a few other forums. Play-testers will recieve 30% discount on all future purchases from me (less if that eats into my pocket, like from printed books or whatever).

"Partially Incomplete" means "missing some options and rules that will appear only in the full version". You know, standard "if you like this, wait till you buy it" stuff.

Phase 2 - Put fully illustrated and rules-complete version up for sale as a pdf file on my own website and most likely RPGNow (i'm following that thread to see what comes from it).

I'm unsure of how much I should charge for this pdf. Some people have mentioned that $10 for a pdf is steep, and over 200 pages is also too steep. However, without cutting out a good portion of the game, I don't see how I could cut down on pages. Also, given all the art I will be doing, I feel that less than $10 is selling myself short.

Phase 3 - IF phase 2 works, and IF it works sufficiently, I would love to use any money garnered via pdf sales to do a print run. Only a small run most likely, but I'd love to hold a hardback copy of my rulebook in my hands at least once before I die :) I can almost feel the smooth matt black cover with the embossed silver title (expensive tastes, hence small run).

My preliminary expected price for a hardback rulebook would be $35, but this will no doubt change as I learn more.



Why do I think this might work at all? Well, the rulebook in question will include pretty much everything any player will need to do a huge amount of stuff. GM and player guides will be in the one book. It will include setting, in terms of the world, countries, cultures, cities and towns, cultural relationships, ecology, economy, organisations (guilds, businesses, sects etc), and all the rules for interacting with these things (like taking advantage of trade, rising through the ranks, acquiring and administering businesses etc.). It will include vast lists of material possessions and how they may be used (clothing, weapons, armors, transport such as ships and horses, land, housing and buildings, etc.). It will obviously include huge amounts of character-specific options, such as abilities (think traits and talents and supernatural capabilities), spells, psionic powers, divine miracles, etc. It will include a whole bunch of nasty creatures too. Basically, it will be equivalant to the DM Handbook, Players Handbook, Monster Manual, and Forgotten Realms Setting book all rolled into one (yeah, I hate referencing AD&D but the analogy was accessible and apt). If I can refrain from drawing a picture everywhere I think one would look cool, then I should be able to keep it all under 300 pages. If I can't, then I'll just have seperate books, and sell them all as a set for a single price.



So... my main concerns are with phase 2. Obviously consumer-end printing is a factor, so number of pages matters. I lack the funds to jump straight to phase 3, so that's out of the question (I am, after all, just a uni student atm). How viable are pdfs in general? Given that many hardcopy books exceed 200 pages, how big is too big for a pdf? And given my reasons for thinking this strategy might work, how much is too expensive for a pdf?

Sorry for the barrage of info and questions. Thanks in advance for your time.

-Ben

Hi Ben,

If your going to do a play-test release, make it that - a release designed to be a playtest. The point of a playtest release is not to garner interest in your game, shareware-stylee, but to gather feedback you need to make the game a better game, and hopefully therefore one more people will buy. Deliberately stripping down the playtest version can only make the information you get back incomplete.

It seems to me that what you are talking about is not a playtest release, but instead a 'taster' version. This may, or may not, work - I'm inclined to think not, q.v:

Give the game for free, then sell it to them
Has anyone tried selling RPGs as shareware

As to the size of your game. I agree a game of that length is worth more. However, .pdfs are distinctly limited in their functional size range and, I feel, what you are proposing is too big and too expensive to be successful.

What I suggest, therefore, is that you split your game into two or three smaller parts. Perhaps a 'system' book containing all the rules you need and a 'setting' book sold as a supplement, that way folks can get their feet wet without splashing out the full cost.

As to paying for print sales with .pdf sales, I seem to remember Ron saying that it doesn't work. I don't actually know. Have you looked into P.O.D. as an alternative to printing a run up front - I believe Lulu has no setup cost, and RPGNow (or is it Mall?) has a sub $50 setup, see this thread:

Lulu & Me

Now an aside, about linking to other threads. Linking to old threads is vital to the proper functioning of the Forge, it prevents old knowledge from becoming stale and lost. When I, or anyone else, refers you to an old thread, we are not saying 'not this again' or 'look, stupid, your question has been answered', we're refering you to the already collected knowledge on the subject, so that you can learn from it. If you have questions about an old thread, or want to reply to it, you can. But what you need to is create a new thread, and link it to the old, rather than simply replying.

Cheers,

Jack.

My personal approach is to actually give away the setting type stuff~
Twilight is based on a novel and features Major Characters and Location cards as a part of the game.
What *I'm* doing is this:

1) Releasing a chapter of the story a week (breaking with that for a couple weeks, but I'll still be posting literary content)
2) This next week will feature downloadable, FREE, Location cards on the site, usable with the game
3) Alternative rules will be made available through the site as well

As of now, my game is NOT for sale. The site however is garnering a fair bit of attention. I'm hardly making a concerted effort at the moment to publisize it and I've gotten about 15,000 hits for April, mebbe closer to 16. Because of the free content, I've got people looking at the game awaiting the release (even eagerly than myself in some cases). I've also garnered a little attention else where: I've won an award for the novel thus far and was named Author of the Month on another site, both of which drives some traffic to the site.
Free "teasers" are a great way to go, since its a win/win situation: your fans get something for free and you're known as one cool publisher cause you make it easy for fans to get into it.
If you posted regular content updates to the site, you would do several things:
1) Accomplish the goal of almost ANY site: Create a REASON to keep coming back. This can help establish a localized community around your game as well, creating even more reason for people to keep coming and being interested
2) If your title is mostly content, this guts the "book" so that you're left with the core rules and probably some good starter/"taster" material to get people started. Thus, you could drop the cost to a more reasonable level, making it more appealing
3) You open the game more~ Not everyone buys into a pre-packaged setting, so that makes your title more flexable if its not so much material

If you feel you'd be "selling yourself short", chalk some of it up to creative marketing ^_^

For phase one, don't expect any unprompted playtesting. I have a handful of complete and free games on my website, and I barely hear a peep from anyone (if anyone) is playing them! I operate under the optimistic assumption that yes, they're occasionally played.

My point is, if you want to get your playtest version not only played, but commented on, you should go out there and pimp it yourself. Run sessions at cons, game stores, your own place, and so on. If you can get someone to demo it where you can't reach (cons in other states, for example), do it!

Hi Zak, I certainly wasn't going to expect any unprompted playtesting, hence the "incentive" of discounted prices for everything I sell. I will of course, also be pimping my shit around forums and actively working with (nagging) any playtesters to give me feedback as they go. Unfortunately, I live in Canberra, Australia, and so my convention options are nil. The best I can do is go to my local Logical Choice store and get friendly with the people there and try to pimp it there. Which I will be doing. Trust me, if you think the "RPG scene" is small in america, you aint seen nothing till you've seen australia. But your comments have inspired me to ask some people around forums to perhaps pimp my stuff at conventions for me, which would of course earn them a nice cut of any sales.

Oh, and I will be doing my best to get some respected reviewer to review my game, though I'm not sure if they do that for play-test versions...


Neo, you've rasied some interesting points. Personally, I have no problem with giving away something for free that will help boost sales, but because Eclipse is not designed over a timeline (as Twilight is), I can't release chapters or anything. I thought about maybe releasing content slowly, and whilst this might give people incentive to return to my site, I fear it may also give people incentive to ignore my site. I see it kinda like selling a car to customers bit by bit.

Specifically with Eclipse, such a model would probably look like: Release and sell core rules (only make money from core rules). Release "sets" of abilities/spells/material possessions/psionic powers. Release "sections" of the world, including maps, populations centres, businesses, organisations, cultures, whatever. Release bestiary seperately.

This is the only way I can see breaking down the book into logical and bite-sized chunks. Wouldn't this be far too many books laying around? Also, wouldn't this be annyoing for players? I don't doubt that this is an excellent model for a continuing story product, but it doesn't seem to make sense for a standalone "here you are, go play" package. Also, the entire game is very closely integrated with the setting. Characters are defined by their relationships to other people and their memberships and positions in organisations. A "sorcerer" is only a sorcerer if they belong to The Academy. A "fighter" doesn't exist -only mercenaries, bodyguards, militia, etc. They have abilities, and these open up potential for integration in the world. I think this is a more "realistic" view of how we exist and develop.


Jack, you raise some interesting points. I haven't purposefully "stripped down" the play-test version I am writing up, instead, I have simply not included some options in the version I'm typing up (which is still a fair way off completion), which I will develop further and include in the full version. I know it's splitting hairs, but that's just how it happened. My reasoning for doing this was simply to make sure that what I charge for is a better game. For example, I've got 8 species available, but only 5 of these are completed (and thus included in the play-test version). My plan was that feedback from the play-test version would help me ensure the 3 additional species worked based on how the other 5 worked.

But why can't a combination play-test/taster version work? As I understand it (and I may be well off), Ron's strategy for Sorcerer began with a free play-test version, which he later pulled from availability and began selling his full version, which had modified rules and some additions. Also, tasters seem to work in things like PC games with demos and stuff, and Beta's. Arguably they work mainly through extensive marketing and shit but the principle remains.

As I mentioned above, my system is very closely integrated with the setting. So much so, that without the setting, most of what players are supposed to 'do' and the choices available to them is solely the province of the setting.

POD is an interesting possibility, thanks for that link. Unfortunately, I'm a big quality freak, and I'm not sure I'd be willing to settle for a soft-cover book. I really like the feel and quality of the AD&D 3E rulebooks, and that's what I'd aim for (but with the aforementioned beauty of a smooth matt black cover with silver embossed letters). I think that's only really achievable via a print run. On the other hand, if it really would help market penetration, perhaps soft-cover might be what I'd have to settle for.


Looking back on my post it looks like I'm painting myself into a corner with my goals and design, which really sucks. It should be possible to produce an integrated system design of high quality and have the whole thing Just Work. If only content sold half as well as marketing...

-Ben

Just a comment on this, not from an expert perspective.

One idea that seems to be making the rounds right now is the opposite of daMoose's: that is, sell extremely cheaply, your core game and system, and then churn out expensive supplement after expensive supplement with setting information, 'splatbook'-type player gimmicks, etc. The players who get hooked on the game and want to buy into the 'canon' or else secure advantage will then pay for all this stuff. (Another value-added for incoherent design.) It works on the printer cheap/cartridges expensive or "hey, kid, first one's free" principle.

I think there is some plausibility to this as an economic model, though it's not clear how well it works in the RPG biz. (Is Witchcraft an example? It was tested on D&D 3.0, and it seems to have been a failure there (in the sense that they effectively made nothing on those millions of PHBs they sold), but that's not a good example for the rest of us.) Note, though, that there are a lot of things about RPGs which I hate which seem naturally to fit with this strategy (e.g. establishing 'setting canon' in the first place, metaplot), and the artist taking this approach furthermore is essentially commiting herself to a long-term engagement with just this one product line, since all the money is coming up later, for your supplemental material. There are other problems I can see with it as well, but if the goal is to get 'your world' out into the gaming consciousness and make people interested in it, and then write about it endlessly, and get off on everyone wondering about your 'secrets', and all that stuff, this might be an economically plausible way to go. Or at least one worth articulating and then shooting down.

the "supplement treadmill"

The answer to your idea Sean is found there ^_^ Kind of a newer topic, but I now feel important to be pointing around topics ^_^
ANYWAY: Back to topic.

Question: Why are you doing this?

Answer: "To make money"
Then follow Sean's suggestion~ If you watch that topic above, you'll see that that IS how a lot of players are. They're so afraid of being out of the loop they buy whatever crops up.

Personally, as a player, I think that blows. Thats why I didn't get into D&D and also I'm handling Twilight as I am (I was burned on Magic TG, not D&D, but same concept). Sinking a SNOT load of money into something just so you can be "in" is rotten. Twilight is PURPOSLY limited to smaller, slightly more infrequent sets at a low cost to the player. Why? To entice starting players yes, but to keep them too. Players as a rule hate hight maintance titles so is it really wise or fair to make them begrugingly spend their money just to "keep up with the Jones?"

Twilight follows SOME of that concept, with the material generation. My field is slightly different however: with a TCG, you generally HAVE to produce new material. I have a story I want to tell however, so that makes my life easier- I can break it up into smaller chunks and allow each chunck to finance the next one.

Ask yourself some questions:
1) Is *insert frill* NECCESARY? Sometimes Function needs to dominate Form, especially in small publishing. Yea, D&D 3 is pretty. So? It looks pretty. I'm personally not fond of the system nor the price tag. Does your title NEED the frills? Or would players pick it up even if it was a paperback? As you already said, cost is a factor for some people- they're more willing to shell out a couple bucks to try something than they are quite a few. Doing so usually requires intimate knowledge (or research) on the product whereas someone who tries it cause its cheap and likes it will tell their pals and get them interested (in this case Content would sell better than marketing, another lesson I've learned from Twilight).

2) Is *insert detail* so important the game CANNOT function without it? Is it NEEDED for every player?
Simple concept: why make them pay for something they won't need? Why spend the money printing something no one will use when you could re-alocate that money to something else (even making it more affordable to include a frill or two that YOU want).
Location and Objective cards in Twilight are, for the most part, optional. Shit cards are worthless. I'm not going to pay to make art for shit that will never see play and I won't spend the money printing cards that COULD see the light of day. Ditto for an RPG~ If you can cut a chapter or two for your book, that reduces YOUR costs as well as the PLAYERS costs.

3) How will you market it? As you said, you're in the middle of nowhere (as am I coincidently :D). Thats where the Net content becomes invaluable, as I am finding out.
Taking the optional, detail chapters and making features for the site out of them ("Terror of the woods- Play a visious WereBear!" or "Take a holiday in the Kingdom of Caliland!") you do the several things:
A) Provide the content you want to
B) Reduce your costs (MUY IMPORTANTE!) and passes those breaks onto the players.
C) (pulls up podium for rant) Create traffic and interest in the product, which is worth MORE than hundreds of dollars of advertising. One interested person will tell someone else, who will check it out for themselves to see if this "Free stuff" is really cool. Impressed, they share as well. An ad sits in a magazine and someone goes "Ooo."
To be honest, Wizards D&D 3/3.5 campaigns did nothing for me. People fighting a demon. Wow. Said nothing about the product, just the image. And yes, that is standard marketing for you (Marketing student here ^_^). Wizards does the same thing with the suplements as well- advertises the HELL out of them and gets people to buy them because, as all advertising is ment to, it convinces you you cannot live(or in this case play the game) without it. And who plays with 20 books of rules? Just give me what I need! I'll seek out what I want on my own!
My 'concept' for something like your title wouldn't be additional books they needed to purchase. It'd be optional, more detailed, versions of what I, as a player, want. "I read about this kingdom in the book and want to explore it...what else is available about it?" By the same token, I (as a player) can say "Wow does that city look boring. I don't think I'll do anything with that one."
As for the car comment, funny you should mention it: Lee Iaccoca built one of THE most popular cars ever. How? Piece by piece~ ANYONE could buy your basic Ford Mustang, and then those who wanted it/could afford it could toss in additional features as they wanted and have the car of THEIR dreams. And some did buy it piece by piece.

4) Selling the first book is great- how will you keep the interest? Cheapest way to do that is community. Where it takes time, effort, and money to produce suppliment after suppliment, it takes little effort on your part and for the most part well established Communities are IMMORTAL! Communities exist for television shows that haven't existed for decades...and yet, the memory lives on and generates some sales for the nostolga products and everything out there. Do everything you can to help the growth of a community around your product. Eventually these things take on a momentum of their own and you're set. You'll be able to release what you want when you want and have a market that WANTS the product, not begrudgingly buys it.

Does the approach work? Yea~ And it could work for yourself (especially seeing you do appear to have a large scale world behind this). Sight unseen, I literally have people contacting me every day to ask if the game is ready dispite my standing, stated release date of May 20th. The CONTENT is selling the game, not marketing.

Hi Ben,

I haven't purposefully "stripped down" the play-test version I am writing up, instead, I have simply not included some options in the version I'm typing up

I did what you are looking into doing. The Swing is a 240 pg game system using my own game engine. Currently I use RPGNOW to marke the pdf. It was selling for $15 dollars since its release in Dec 03. This month I have lowered it to $10. I did this because, while I feel the game is worth more (it took two years to write) I get more sales at lower costs. Normally I would pick a weekend per month and lower it to $5. This would generate sales whether I advertised it or not. Hopefully at $10 more people will be willing to purchase it.

As for the POD, RPGMALL (same people as RPGNOW) do not charge a setup fee and are relatively inexpensive. FYI, it will cost around $8 to produce a 240 pg book. That includes shipping. They have a worksheet on their POD page which you can use to get a price for production. The quality was better than I had imagined. The only downside without an ISBN# you can not get into distribution. While I have found FLGS willing to purchase copies, I have been unable to branch out and sell more. The next print run of the POD will retail at $35, currently there are copies at RPGMALL for $12.95 just to unload inventory.

Now, I can guess you might be wondering what it has been worth to me. Since Dec, I have collected over $400 from POD and PDF sales. Not alot, I am definitely not quiting my day job yet. But it has allowed me to continue. On top of that I have done little to no marketing. I stop into FLGS every now and then, say hi, ask if they need more; I post on a few message boards about sales adn such; and thats about it. So $400 with very little marketing isn't bad. I can only imagine what I would have if I did actively market.

BTW, my strategy was:
Stage 1: Create a backstory, setting and reason for the game.
Stage 2: Create a usable combat system.
Stage 3: I did a closed playtest period with groups from FLGS. This period lasted about 4 months (and was tons of fun).
Stage 4: Finalize everything, and added art.
Stage 5: Released both the PDF and POD within two weeks of each other (order was sent in together, I just forgot there was a two week delivery time for the POD).

Guys,
I might be missing something, but as I am skimming through this thread I can't help but feel there is a step you're all leaving out.

How are you going to get people to play your game? What exactly are you going to do?

Unless you are a big publishing house with brand-name recognition, you can't simply release a product, cross your arms, smile and watch the money roll in. You must promote the game.

I'm not saying the "free pdf>pay pdf>printed matter" model is unsound. Far from it! But talking about what kind of print runs you're going to be doing at this stage -- without hundreds of people asking you, "When's the book coming out?" -- is pointless.

Look at what Ron did with Sorcerer. Free game>shareware game>printed game>hardback game. Looks the same, right? Oh, but we're missing the details: In between all those steps, he got out there and played the damn game with anyone who had half a minute and half a brain -- he started a website, had an active mailing list and then started these forums with CRN. That's a lot of work, and it you don't need a printed book to do it.

So, it's great to have a dream about being in print, but if you're serious about making your game successful, you've got to do more.

-L

abzu wrote: he got out there and played the damn game with anyone who had half a minute and half a brain -- he started a website, had an active mailing list and then started these forums with CRN. That's a lot of work, and it you don't need a printed book to do it.

Hey abzu (sorry, I don't know your real name). You are of course correct, but marketting was something I was just gonna do when the game was finished. This topic was mainly about the distributing side of things, like the logistics involved with what people are willing to pay for in a given medium.

When my game was finished, my goal was to pimp it up. Like here in the actual play forums, RPG.net, my local game store (if possible), friends, other websites, all that shit. I am currently (slowly) building myself a website (see the little "www" button under this post), which would contain all sorts of information about it and a forum and stuff, and I would have probably started playing with people online (I live in Australia, there's no such thing as an RPG convention here, and most advertised gaming groups are for M:TG).

This thread was basically me looking through my time telescope to see if what I planned now could eventuate. I've got to finish the damn thing first (why is it that when you start a project, you have nothing to do, and then once you get on a roll, you all of a sudden have thousands of other things that need doing???).

-Ben