Hey all,

My first post here at the Forge. I'd like to introduce a new Sci-Fi RPG called ZAON. The core rules book provides a peek into the thoroughly fleshed-out universe and play setting also known as 'ZAON', offering you the chance to harness a variety of science-fiction play styles all within one coherent universe—a universe held together by a powerful blending of space opera and hard science fiction. ZAON incorporates plausible future technologies together with realistic game rules carefully balanced with the excitement, political intrigue, and popular style elements most of us have come to enjoy in mainstream science-fiction television and film.

Another thing we're doing a bit different than most is we're incorporating film-quality visual effects for the book's interior artwork.

You can check out the game and its artwork here: http://www.zaon.com

But, anyway, I'm posting because I'm seeking some help/ideas with two areas currently troubling me.

First, the game is shaping up pretty well in terms of being a great generic setting, with some parallels to Bab5, SW, and some Trek, but I'm having trouble finding something truly and uniquely 'ZAON' in the setting.

Second, having trouble developing an initiative system that is fast enough while addressing enough of the 'realities' the current in-place system does.

So, would love any help in that area y'all would be willing to offer!

Good Times!
--Justin

First, I thank you for the privilage to be the first forgite to welcome you!
I would infer that you've been viewing posts here already, and would advise you, and any other first-time poster, heavilly to get a feel for the atmosphere before really becoming part of it. Now I ask you what I feel to be the most important thing about any RPG. What is the premise for your system/setting? Why should we play it instead of having a Star Wars-Babylon 5 (ugh)-Star Trek RPG marathon? There is difference in all sci-fi in the creation of it. In Star Wars, is was epic fantsy elements in a sci-fi environment. In Trek, it was to create a solid sci-fi TV show to explore human ideas in alien cultures. B5 probably has something unique about it too. You've given us some elements about your universe, but I'm not shure how "political intrigue" in your universe will differ from dunes. Would you please reply with info on your stances on specific topics, such as GNS, system mechanics, and your premise. If your premise is trulley, to blend other elements together you trulley won't have any of your own elements whithin your system.

As for initiative, I would ask you what the players do first. Is your game to be a system of opposed rolls, or a simple matter of skill checks? This an many other options are before you. Good luck.

Pyron, I 'spose I would best answer your question by saying that ZAON is primarily a Star Wars alternative, but with the best elements from other sci-fi settings plus a considerable amount of its own. In Star Wars much of the history/future has already been set in stone; the fame and glamor captured by the heroes already defined in that setting. This is a blank slate but with every bit as heavily detailed in setting as Star Wars.

Perhaps it's just me, but if I sit down to read a Trek RPG book, that last thing I want to see or hear about is the exploits of Kirk, Picard, and the like. I want to know about the setting and all the adventure that awaits me.

Also, I've always found cool ships, interesting aliens, and kick-ass equipment to be the best points of sci-fi. ZAON aims to introduce as much of these three as it can—all new to the gaming world. Perhaps think of it as tapping those who know the Star Wars setting and all the cool things in it, but finding a similar but all-new setting ready to be explored; full of cool stuff. ;-)

We hope that film-quality art, intriguing and diverse aliens, and interesting politics will capture a loyal audience.

ZaonDude wrote: Second, having trouble developing an initiative system that is fast enough while addressing enough of the 'realities' the current in-place system does.

Good question. I don't believe I've actually timed play. I probably should. Most people describe the ZAON system as reasonably fast to fast. I would like initiative to be among the fastest resolutions during play.

Also, I realized that I missed a question from the previous poster regarding GNS, etc:

ZAON is certainly a balance, but the foremost goal is playability and fun. Second isn't exactly simulation, but rather assurance that the rules do not violate the player's sense of reality. Therefore, the rules system is as 'hard' as I dare make it, as realistic as I dare make it, but playable above all. The system is fairly lethal meaning cool heads should prevail, but combat is plentiful and safe enough if one is prepared (armor).

The last thing we wanted to do was put together old homebrew system mechanics, so we threw out everything we had (even what we sorta liked) and got together with some outside mathematicians to help design a new system from the ground up. The result is wonderfully sound mathematically, and fully scalar. Its best attribute is how modifiers are relative to your chances to begin with. In other words, being 'wounded' or working under other adverse conditions doesn't really have anything to do with the task's original difficulty, and so 'multiply' against the normal difficulty, lowering it further, but reducing it such that some chance always remains so long as there was a chance to begin with. For tasks beyond the original scope of the character's abilities, there is no chance; as it should be.

I haven't considererd making a sci-fi game ever, so these thoughts might be too much of a "newbie sci-fpg maker's thoughts", but heck I give it a shot.

I think what ZAON needs is

A MYTH


Look at Star Wars it has a myth, Dune has it, Star Trek has it, heck pretty much any sci-fi movie has it.

What is it? Well it's about deciding "how things came to be the way they are"

A history of the world and what makes it tick.

There are different types of sci-fi. In some we're actually exploring the secrets of the universe, in some sci-fi is just a futuric setting that only weakly interacts with the story. Sometimes it's a mix of both. Whatever the case there is a sort of mystery or enigma at the base of it.

In Star Wars, the force is the unknown, as is what powers the evil side has. In Star Trek the "undiscovered" is the mystery being explored every episode. In Dune there is plenty of mystery in how the sci-fi-mystic way the universe is constructed.

All of these things not only create adventures, but also gives direction to why things look the way they look, why they are the way they are.

Heck, you could introduce ZAON which is the name for the mysterious race that created the universe. Their artefacts and empty space hulks are sometimes found creating great leaps in technology.

You could also introduce ZAON which is a name for a place where the space/time-continuum has broken down. The cause is unknown. However, thanks to these regions hyperspace travel is possible. However, there are people who say that there is something bad with the Zaon, that they are symptoms of a gradual destruction of our universe. There are even people who say that beyond the Zaon lies a mutilverse populated by a terrible evil, sealed away for all eternity. It tries to break free, but aside from a few believers, this is largely ignored.

Zaon could also be the planet were the first contact was made with alien life and so on and so on.

Possibilities are endless. (I just thought it would be fun to use the name you had). However, you see immediately how distinctly different those universes would be? I think that's a GOOD thing. What you need to decide is what type of myth suits you the best.

Hi Justin, are you the same Zaon guy who posts on RPG.Net, or another?

From what I remember (I looked at your sample rulebook a while ago), Zaon is tends towards encouraging fairly simulationist play (that's not a criticism by the way).

For your initiative problem, I suggest you consider why you think you need initiative. Is it merely to arbitrate which player goes first (as it often seems to be in RPGs)? Or is it for some reality simulation purpose?

The point Pale Fire makes about having a Myth is a good one. But the core point you really need to consider (and you'll get this a great deal at the forge) is what your game is about. If you have a solid idea of what the game is about, the uniqueness for the game should become self evident.

-Matt

Hi ZaonDude,

I think Christoffer (Pale Fire) has nailed it. If you don't want ZAON to be a generic system you have to come up with a myth, a timeline, what have you. Something that makes the game unique.

Just off the top of my head, since you have invested so much time in the intricacies of the system, you might look at some mythos relating to some mathematic concept, or perhaps beings or some type of "magic" based around math (and magic meaning some type of mathematical or scientific procedure whose effects would appear to be magic to those who didn't know better). The only thing that comes to mind for me is the movie Contact with Jodie Foster, how they broke the "alien code" by figuring out the equation was in the shape of a cube (or something to that effect).

Since math is supposed to be a universal language it should fit a sci-fi setting pretty well. I know that is sketchy at best but math is just not my strong suit.

But again, I agree with Christoffer---unless you want a generic sci-fi game, you need something to make ZAON unique.

Pete

PS - Pyron, man, that's harsh. I've been posting here for months and I wouldn't even _begin_ to tackle the GNS issue. :)

On the initiative subject, and considering your stated design goals, have you considered the fastest option of all? Not having initiative? Lot's of games have simplified combat significantly by making combat rounds a matter of opposed combat rolls. The winner of the roll does something bad to the loser. Could be positional, could be a wound, could be a lot of things.

As an added bonus, it makes combat play out much more like cinematic combats. Characters don't take turns swinging at each other, there is a back and forth pendulum of advantage. Non-initiative systems represent this well.

For a nifty example of a game that uses this method, see Paul Elliot's Zenobia. For a game that has initiative, but does it right, see TROS.

Mike

Zaondude-

Just read through the PDF download. First, congrats on some very hefty work. It looks like you were pretty thorough as far as putting together a sci-fi set-up.

As far as your first question, I do think that people are nailing it. What sets a good sci-fi (and many other types) game apart from others is story. At least in the sense of "Will our adventures and exploits MEAN anything?" IMO, Star Wars, Trek and B5 exist better as movies or TV or independent fiction. Even Farscape for that matter. The existing stories have far reaching ramifications for the whole galaxy. PCs running around doing things can cause some folks to think they are inconsequential to the big picture.

Check out some of the past posts on metaplot and space opera to see what other people said. 7th Sea is a good example of this. When it was first introduced, there was all this story going on, but later books just made the PCs sort of trivial, as all the major stuff would happen with or without them.

For me personally, I like the idea of cinema in RPGs. Especially sci-fi. Make it epic, make it big, make it cool. But that can be handled in terms of a good GM. I don't know how much you want to do with this game in the future, although from your posts it seems like you want the players to make a difference, so IMO, you might lay off of a metaplot. Just introduce some new scenarios, aliens, etc.

As for your second question, initiative depends on what you want to accomplish. As far as I can see, the init system is simple as it stands. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. But if you want to add more cinematic flavor to it, then you might look to Mike's thoughts.

Aaron Houx

Mike Holmes wrote:

Lot's of games have simplified combat significantly by making combat rounds a matter of opposed combat rolls. The winner of the roll does something bad to the loser. Could be positional, could be a wound, could be a lot of things.

Mike Holmes wrote: On the initiative subject, and considering your stated design goals, have you considered the fastest option of all? Not having initiative? Lot's of games have simplified combat significantly by making combat rounds a matter of opposed combat rolls. The winner of the roll does something bad to the loser. Could be positional, could be a wound, could be a lot of things.

Hi Justin,

And it's great to see you here. I've downloaded Zaon, although unfortunately it's now waitin' its turn behind several other games.

Here are some threads regarding the order of actions in role-playing that you might find interesting.
Comments wanted on initiative ideas
The four steps of action
What is IIEC?

Rob Muadib and I have discussed initiative/order for strong Simulationist designs in some detail. He's a great resource for this topic; I'm not sure how actively he checks the Forge these days, but I'm sure he'd be willing to help.

Best,
Ron

Justin-

Cut down the numbers of rolls. Don't make initiative a matter of a separate die roll (or even neccessarily a die roll at all). Games that have interesting (and fast) takes on initiative:

FVLMINATA (Character's social status determines initiative)
Sorcerer (Players' action/attack rolls determine initiative)
The Riddle of Steel (Player choice and character success determine initiative)

Systems that use token or bidding for initiative are also pretty quick, though none pop into my head at the moment.

Jake

Hello,

Pale Fire nailed it IMO with his suggestion of adding a Myth. You need one. My suggestion would be to place a little more emphasis on the fear of the Great Enemy's eventual return. Throwing in a bit of Lovecraftian-style mystery/horror about the Great Enemy could be cool too. Either approach would give your setting a nice hook, beyond the cool S.F. accoutrements already in place.

For initiative, one idea for faster resolution of who goes first is simply to generate INI stats taking into account the superscript numbers. No rounding, keep the decimals. Then when combat rolls around instead of rolling for initiative you can compare numbers, higher number goes first. There should be enough fractional variation to make ties unlikely. In the case of a tie, then a simple roll-off could be used. This puts most the time spent determining initiative at the character creation stage; during play it's just a quick number comparison. Just a thought.

And I am so buying this when it comes out. Great stuff!

Hey Justin,

First, the game is shaping up pretty well in terms of being a great generic setting, with some parallels to Bab5, SW, and some Trek, but I'm having trouble finding something truly and uniquely 'ZAON' in the setting.

I think Christoffer nailed it on this issue with, "What you need to decide is what type of myth suits you the best." But I want to follow up his suggestion with a recommendation that you challenge your assumptions about what this myth might be like, and how it might be delivered to potential players through your game and its text. The solution employed by most games is to write an elaborate treatise on the game world's history and social structure. My suggestion is to read very carefully Fang Langford's theory about metaphor, and decide how it applies to ZAON. What meaningful conflict do the trappings of your setting represent? I think that's what Christoffer is calling "myth." And I think the game text you write once you've answered that question will be much leaner and effective than the world-building efforts you find in other games, simply because the stuff that doesn't support your core "myth" will naturally be painted with a much lighter brush.

Paul

Hi Justin, and welcome to the Forge!

My question is, how much of this material is already set in stone? With your Web page rumbling at me in the background and after a quick look through your 256-page rulebook PDF, it appears that the work is largely complete. And that's an unfortunate time to be asking, in so many words, "what should this game be about?"

The same issue might apply to the discussion of initiative as well. Mike's comments and the examples he points to are pure gold. But are such issues really in play here, or has it already come down to the question (openly discussed in the rule book) of whether or not to add a die roll to the current stat-based precedence?

Here are some first impressions on the potential unique Zaon-ness of the setting.

One, you have an extraordinarly crowded galaxy here. There's little in the way of a "great frontier" or a sense of the vastness of space; instead, it comes across more like a built-out continent. If you choose to bring this more into the foreground, you could have a strong parallel with the modern world, in which the doctrine of "go forth and multiply" held over from earlier eras in which it was necessary for survivial has become counterproductive. (You'd have to work out what the crucial scarce or threatening-to-become-scarce commodity is. Since you have starships, it cannot plausibly be energy, or anything that can usually be fabricated given sufficient energy and access to space gasses, such as food or water. Perhaps just simple living space.)

Another striking characteristic of your setting is the lack of religion as a major force in history or in current politics or species relations. Especially in the Zaon Empire, which inevitably evokes the Roman Empire. Surely some of the backwater-refugee-colonies-turned-militarist-states would see their wars as jihad rather than conquest or territory disputes. Such a large and heterogeneous setting should be an extremely fertile growth medium for species-crossing memes and cultural upheavals sweeping in waves across the hinterlands and Imperial capitals alike. So much so, that the setting might not feel right unless you explain their lack.

The interesting thing about the Trek and B5 settings is the interaction and collision of cultures. The best of those adventures got the main characters involved in those interactions at a fairly high, sometimes world-history-altering, level. You appear to be following in the path of many other generic SF settings, and squeezing the player-characters' scope of involvement into too small a scale to get involved in that (except perhaps at the trivial level of "how does the Klingon crewman get along with the half-Romulan crewman"). It's always about my ship, my crew, my trader-family; the little guy trying to survive while being squeezed and threatened by large forces; the Imperial Navy lieutenant or captain being sent on missions of a sensitive nature. There's nothing wrong with that, but you can do it in any generic SF setting. "I piloted my freighter/smuggler/exploration ship to ZabbaDabba to pick up some replacement fittings. I had to fight off some pirates along the way, then ran afould of a corrupt Customs official who was threatening to impound my ship. I saved the day by exposing him, proving he was in league with the pirates." Quick, which setting am I playing in? Star Wars? Star Trek? Traveller? Alien? Firefly? The Spanish Main? Does it matter?

If you want the sweep and diversity of your setting to be important in play, rather than fodder for endless sourcebooks and occasional trivia contests at gaming cons, Zaon needs to do three things. One, get culture right into the core of the system. Cultural Attributes that work like TROS's Spiritual Attributes would be one way to bring the elements of cross-culture interaction into the fighting and into other areas. This could bring together in one mechanism a wide variety of character elements including alien abilities, unusual backgrounds or training, cultural habits and characteristics, personal relationships, causes that inspire (including religious and political belief systems), and mental powers.

Two, make those cultures interesting, in their own rights as well as in their interactions with each other. What do they hate? What have they suffered in their distant and recent pasts? What ideas unite them and divide them? What are their plans for their own futures? Whom do they eat?

Three, get the players directly involved in situations where unfamiliar cultures interact. One possibility is presented in the more recent of the Miles Vorkosigan novels by Lois McMaster Bujold, in the form of Miles' "imperial auditor" role. Or look into the old Retief stories by Laumer. If the 300 alien races are going to be something more than 300 different sets of stat adjustments, then the game has to get the players to where their homeworlds or colony worlds or space fleets are.

Some originality might be called for in ships and their missions. You want a ship and crew with a scope of mission close to that of the Enterprise, but without the annoying military hierarchy (which inclides the inconvenient fact of everyone except the captain automatically being in a secondary role.) Think of the adventure potential, for example, of a ship whose mission is interspecies art acquisition for the Zaon Imperial Museum. Or an independent contractor ship with the capacity to carry four million (human-sized) passengers or refugees from planet to planet, for any of the many reasons that might become necessary. (I especially like this last one; it lets you combine many of the starship and space station adventure tropes, as well as plenty of opportunity to get involved in high-level events involving cultural interactions and upheavals.)

- Walt

PS Weren't "Zaons" the persecuted pseudo-Jews in the Star Trek episode with the Nazi planet? (The similarity of the word to "Zion" was probably not coincidental.)

Walt-
Beautiful. You said so elegantly what I had stored up in my tiny, little brain and tried to put down.

Oh, and I had that Zaon/Zion Star Trek thing going through my head too.

Aaron Houx

@PaleFire - A Myth is exactly what ZAON needs. See below.

@Matt - Yes, I'm the 'ZAON Netrep' guy from rpg.net :-) Also, if you have looked at ZAON a while ago, it is recently vastly improved—such that you may want to take another look now. Also, I'm not sure I'd call it 'simulationist', because by far our foremost goal is playability and speed. But, we have endeavored to include as much simulation as possible where that simulation in no way harms the playability or entertainment aspects of the game.

@Demonspahn - A mathematic mythos works great for movies like Contact (which I loved up until the end), but I'm not sure it's "cool" enough for mainstream players to grasp and enjoy. It would appeal almost exclusively to intellectuals.

@MikeHolmes - I haven't considered no initiative at all. But, perhaps my use of the term 'initiative' isn't exactly correct. Though the system is turn-based, all action is simultaneous within that turn from both/all sides of a conflict. The main point in addition to seeing if one PC can injure or incapacitate another before the other can return fire is valid, but other issues surrounding 'initiative' are also important to me such as being able to determine exactly how far a PC can run and by when during that turn so players know whether they can reach cover at various distances before or after an enemy gets to fire at them. Also, surprise needs to be dealt with in its various levels. The rules already handle all of this, but I'm hearing the rules are too complex in this one area of the game. Perhaps you could take a look and see if they appear overly complex to you?

@mahoux - Thanks for the compliments. Actually, our game's GM section on adventures notes that common sense should apply insofar as not having players regularly 'saving the universe' as seems unfortunately common in many sci-fi television shows and movies. So, in a way, we're suggesting that a lot of fun can be had at the more trivial 'small scale' level than impacting the whole galaxy.

@silkworm - Our current initiative system already works that way. PCs have an 'initiative stat' of Slow, Average, Fast, Very Fast, etc., that is calculated based on a combination of physical and mental speed traits. Then, if the GM wishes, a random dice element can be used to vary those PCs up or down a 'speed' category. Various types of surprise can also cause initiative to be slowed a category or two, or even a complete loss of turn (our turns are about 1 second in length). But, I'm hearing from select players that the system is too complex. Is it?


@Waltfreitag - Regarding how much is set in stone, yes, the entire game is very near press time save a final pro editing pass. However, because this is the core game, I feel it imperitive to get this core book right. That means I'm not above reworking anything I need to. In fact, I just introduced an idea that came to me recently in our game-specific discussion forums at zaon.org (zaon.com for the game, dot-org for forums) dealing with moving a highly intelligent 'imperious' type race from the sidelines and into a role of very old beings who are 'behind' the main ZAON Empire via political mastery and also shared technological secrets. We're now exploring all of the possible intrigue behind this race. Some members have suggested that perhaps this race originated from another galaxy and traveled here and was subsequently 'cut-off' from getting home? Perhaps they were part of an original invading force with a hidden agenda of reestablishing a 'gate' home in order to bring the rest of their invasion to our galaxy? Lots of ideas right now, but they seem better than what is currently positioned in the book pdf and hence why I'm ready to integrate those ideas once fully fleshed out.

What I want in the game now is myth and intrigue. In addition to the very old race, I have always wanted to introduce later more information about the 'ancients'. The idea here is that the entire galaxy was/is full of life, but none of that life was sentient. The ancients, billions of years old, have meddled with that life on many worlds in this galaxy and in others for some untold purpose. The result is countless sentient species.

I like your idea of a scarce element/resource, and actually posted on our .org forums that idea some time ago but was never able to figure out what exactly was scarce or needed to be scarce.

ZAON definitely needs much more flavor in its cultures. I believe I need a lot of help in this area. And you're right, why ZAON? Why not any other sci-fi setting? I can answer that only insofar as the details go—the technology, the ships, the species, and other details all behaving in ability according to my values of common sense. That is, I don't want time travel, nor transporters, nor magic, and many other items I feel 'spoil' sci-fi. I've got that down. A plausible, semi-realistic setting. It needs intrigue, that's for sure.

BTW, great examples for adventures in such a setting.


Finally, the term "ZAON". A friend of mine came up with the term first I had heard it, but I did later see that TOS Trek espisode. The spelling is a bit different, for in Trek it was "Zeons" even though it is pronounced the same as my term "zay+on". The true Biblical/Jewish term is of course "Zion" (zi+on), and was also mentioned in films such as the Matrix.

Also, FYI: a couple of you have tried to email me. Please note that our email alias router went down this morning... we're working on it.

'netrep' at zaon.com does work, however, for email.

With a big empire but not necessarily an evil one, I'm starting to think abou the galactic empire of Asimov's Foundation series. But even that had mysteries hidden at the core of it, even though it wasn't full of myth. And the reason for the latter I think was primarily because there were no alien race in those books.

Anyway. I think there are plenty of myths to inspire out there. Running low on inspiration?

wfreitag wrote: Especially in the Zaon Empire, which inevitably evokes the Roman Empire.

Actually, there should be parallels to both the Roman Empire and also especially the Japanese Empire (around WWII time) insofar as that fanatical patriotism among the people and military.

One of the real challenges ahead is determining exactly how this old race of Darcanan are integrated with the Empire and the dynamic relationship between them. The Darcanan, having brought much of the advanced technology the Empire now uses, also occupy many leading positions in the military, including the honary position of 'emperor' as well as most warships being 'captained' (a ship's lord) by a Darcanan lord.

ZaonDude wrote: Actually, there should be parallels to both the Roman Empire and also especially the Japanese Empire (around WWII time) insofar as that fanatical patriotism among the people and military.

One of the real challenges ahead is determining exactly how this old race of Darcanan are integrated with the Empire and the dynamic relationship between them. The Darcanan, having brought much of the advanced technology the Empire now uses, also occupy many leading positions in the military, including the honary position of 'emperor' as well as most warships being 'captained' (a ship's lord) by a Darcanan lord.

ADGBoss wrote: For an air of mystery, an Emerald court of srts, an Imperial China model of empire.