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A word to newcomers: This thread is part of the ongoing Group Design Project, in particular building on some of the early concepts for mechanics laid out in Nailing Mechanics in light of the themes of Humanity, Transcendence, and Free Will as refined in Nailing Axes. If you're unfamiliar but interested, the last two threads in particular can help you catch up, as will the "state of play" below. Don't feel you need to read every thread before posting to this one. All thoughtful input is welcome, and new perspectives are always helpful.

This thread is for posting draft mechanics, and then discussing, dissecting, revising, and re-posting them. My hope is that at the conclusion of this thread (and perhaps of any daughter threads spawned to deal with specific subtopics), we will have a working set of rules which we can use for some small-scale playtesting.

Our focus needs to be on the individual level, on Archivist:Host possession relationship which is the heart of the game; but we also need to keep in mind the "strategic" issues of time travel and changing history -- ideally by creating individual-level mechanics that scale up easily to the macro-level.

And to remind everyone of the rough working consensus at this point:

An Archivist is an incorporeal being, formerly human, who can travel through history and enter a kind of symbiosis with a human Host -- exercising more or less control over the Host, and making more or less use of its extraordinary powers through the Host, depending on how much the Archivist is willing to endanger the life, sanity, and individuality of that Host.

Humanity is everything which links a character to human beings: passions, relationships, duties. Ordinary people obviously have Humanity; so do Archivists, as a residue of their human past. Humanity can be eroded by the more brutal means of Archivist control over the Host, and by the more blatant uses of Archivist power through a Host, which can"burn out" the Host mentally and physically.

Transcendence is everything which links a character to the underlying truths of the cosmos. It is the defining characteristic of Archivists and the source of their powers; but it is also exhibited by mortal humans of extraordinary scientific, mystical, or artistic insight, and can even be imparted to a mortal by an Archivist "muse." (How rare and limited incidents of mortal Transcendence are, and whether they might come with Kewl Powerz, is an unresolved topic). Transcendence can eroded by immersion in the passion and sensuality of human existence, which can overwhelm the incorporeal Archivist and cause it to "fade out."

Thus Humanity and Transcendence exist, not in direct opposition, but in constant tension, and striking a balance between these two things is a delicate dilemma.

Finally, Free Will is the ability to make choices for yourself. While Free Will is not directly linked to either Transcendence or Humanity, it is possible for it to be affected by them, conceivably either for good -- as a deeper Humanity or higher Transcendent insight strengthens your identity -- or for ill -- as the ties of Humanity and the insistent truths of Transcendence leave you with only one choice to make. (How this works is another, crucial unresolved issue). A Host with high Free Will is more able to resist the suggestions and commands of the Archivist; but an Archivist can also risk revealing itself, essentially throwing itself on the mercy of its Host's Free Will in the hope of converting a relationship of control into one of alliance.

This is a very rough summary, of course, and anyone who sees a gaping hole in it is free to post. But otherwise I would ask that all posts be either at least reasonably complete outlines of mechanics, or comments on such mechanics.

Comments on Summary[/u]
I know the assumption has been that both host and Archivist could experience Burn and Fade, but I didn't think we'd firmly decided on that yet. Is that still up for discussion, or not? The mechanics I'm (re)posting below assume that Burn is for the host and Fade is for the Archivist.

Likewise, I didn't think it was yet written in stone that Archivists have Humanity.


Archivist Traits[/u]
Transcendence -- This is the measurement of the quintessence of what makes the Archivist what he is. In some sense it is a measurement of raw (potential) power. This should be defined as some arbitrary range of numbers greater than Humanity (defined below). Let's say it's a range from 1 to 21.

Otherworldly Knowledges -- This is a subset of traits that measure the Archivist's knowledge of "things man was not meant to know." Ex. -- All Things Are Connected (2), Lost Lore of Atlantis (6), True Timeline History (5), etc.

Logoi -- This is a subset of traits that measure the Archivist's ability to manipulate, alter, and control the physical world. In other words, Kewl Powerz. Ex. -- Laser-Beam Eyes (3), Inhuman Strength (4), Molecular Disintegration (2), etc.

Skills -- This is a subset of traits that measure the non-Transcendent abilities of the Archivist, be they remnants from their human existence, or things they've learned after becoming an Archivist. Ex. -- Gunsmithing (2), Piloting (1), Great Library Research (4), Archivist Politics (3), etc.

Fade -- A measure of the "psychic trauma" suffered by the Archivist. Fade will decrease over time, but very slowly. Enough Fade will cause damaging effects, such as loss of traits.


Host Traits[/u]
Humanity -- This the measurement of the quintessence of what makes a host human. It is a measurement of the host's vitality and lifeforce. This should be defined as an arbitrary number range less than the range of Transcendence. Let's define it as a range from 1-13.

Free Will -- This is a measurement of the host's identity and ability to resist compulsion in any form, specifically including Archivist control.

Passions -- This is a subset of everything that really matters to the host; the things that drive them. Passions are a source of greatness, be it good or evil. Ex. -- Love of Order (3), Creative Impulse (2), Hates Men (1), Loves Puzzles (5), etc.

Skills -- This is a subset of traits that measure the non-Transcendent abilities of the host. Ex. -- Gunsmithing (2), Piloting (1), Research (4), Politics (3), etc.

Burn -- A measure of the physical deterioration suffered by the host due to the presence of the Archivist. Burn never goes away. Enough Burn will cause damaging effects, such as loss of traits, blindness, rotting flesh, loss of limbs, etc.


How The Traits Interrelate[/u]
Transcendence and Humanity -- Quite simply, whichever is higher is who controls the host/Archivist fusion. An Archivist can increase their Transcendence at will (up to their maximum) and decrease it as easily. This represents the Archivist putting more or less of their own power into the host body. There should be some mechanical means that this can cause Humanity to decrease (not always, but the risk should be there). Whether we do this through a Fortune mechanic  ("oops, rolled low, Humanity drops by one") or a resource-allocation mechanic ("okay, I increase Transcendence by nine, which reduces the host's Humanity by three") is something we can decide later.

Otherworldly Knowledges and Free Will -- As Otheworldly Knowledge is bestowed on the host, his free will may be affected. If the particular knowledge does not support or contradict a host's Passions (i.e. is nuetral in respect to Passions), Free Will remains unchanged. If it supports a host's Passions, Free Will is decreased (as the host realizes he has no choice but to do what is needed). If it contradicts a host's Passions...Free Will is...uhm...I don't know. Ideas?[/i] This is the most significant change from the previous version of the mechanics I posted in the Nailing Axes thread.

Passions and Logoi -- The more an Archivist uses their Logoi, the more the host's Passions or Humanity (player's choice) are decreased.

Skills -- If Archivist skills are used through a host, the host takes Burn. If host skills are used, there is no effect on the Archivist.

Fade -- This increases from a variety of actions, which aren't fully defined yet, but will certainly include when host Passions increase and when Humanity increases, whether from the Archivist's own actions or any other reason.

Burn -- This increases from a variety of actions, which aren't fully defined yet, but will include at least: when Passions are reduced, when Humanity is reduced, when the Archivist uses his own Skills through the host, when the host's Skills are increased by the Archivist, and when Logoi are used through the host.


Examples of Play[/b]

1. An Archivist wants his host to dive out an 82nd floor window. Naturally, the host's Passion of Survival (5) and Achieve Success (3) get in the way. Along with the host's Free Will of 7, this is 15 points against the action happening. The Archivist has a maximum Transcendence of 10 (he's new) so he can't just overpower the host. Instead, he opts to Burn the host: removing the Survival (5) Passion, he replaces it with the Logos Flight (5). The host now has a Logos that the Archivist can use at will, and has taken 5 points of Burn. In addition, the host only has 10 points to resist the Archivist now, and since the Archivist also has 10, the host is forced to do what the Archivist wants.

2. Using his host's Firearms (4) Skill, an Archivist takes out several street thugs. All but one are killed, and he is running away, dodging wildly. The Archivist uses the host's Firearms (4) Skill, along with his own Statistical Analysis (4) Skill (to determine where the thug will dodge next, of course) and takes him out with the combined 9 points. The host takes 4 points of Burn.

3. A Dark Archivist takes over a willful host, and decides to fry him right off the bat, so there won't be any trouble later on. Manifesting 15 points of Transcendence into the host forces the host's Humanity (12) to Humanity (0), for a 12 points of Burn. Ouch!

If Passions contridict the assertions of the Archivist, either through RP Insistance ("You simply MUST do this!") or through bestowment of Knowledge ("If you don't do it, this is what will happen-" *Run Armageddon cinimatic*), I'd say some kind of check is in order.

If a Passion contridicts a Knowledge bestowment, then a check should be made if Free Will is affected. If the Archivist bombs the check, the Host's related Passion and Free Will remain as high and the Archivist has to find another way around it.

How about this:

Knowledge is neutral to Passion --> no effect on host's Free Will
Knowledge supports Passion --> possible decrease in host's Free Will
Knowledge counters Passion --> possible increase in host's Free Will

One of the very first ideas for the game was that it wouldn't use dice, so I don't mechanically know how to put randomness in without some Fortune mechanic.

Hm, must have missed that part of the agreement.
I had assumed that at least for dealing with Hosts, who could be unpredictable, we'd have something.

Otherwise, sounds good to me!

1) Institutional memory

That we should put the emphasis on "karma" (i.e. nonrandom) over "fortune" (i.e. dice, cards, whatever) was in Tobias's very first post seeding our initial brainstorm thread. I accepted it as a "nice idea" at first but since have come strongly on board that karma-resolution fits much better than dice-rolling for a game that's not about taking chances so much as about making terrible choices in light of terrible knowledge -- with the notable exception that I think Free Will mechanics should have a die-roll involved, so that when you leave Free Will truly free, neither players nor GM can control the outcome.

Quote from: Andrew MorrisI know the assumption has been that both host and Archivist could experience Burn and Fade, but I didn't think we'd firmly decided on that yet. Is that still up for discussion, or not? The mechanics I'm (re)posting below assume that Burn is for the host and Fade is for the Archivist. Likewise, I didn't think it was yet written in stone that Archivists have Humanity.

As far as I'm concerned, everything's up for discussion, and nothing's written in stone. I mean, I'd be kinda shocked if we trashed the Archivist concept in favor of a game about giant mutant rabbits that included 50 pages of firearms combat rules, but no cows are sacred.


2) Andrew's proposal

I really like the idea that maximum Archivist Transcendence is always higher than maximum Host Humanity -- it puts the balance of power, and thus moral responsibility, squarely on the shoulders of the Archivists, i.e. the players, where it should be.

I'm intrigued by the sub-categories of Archivist (and human) traits. There's always a danger of kitchensinking when you start trying to cover all possible bases, but used with discipline this kind of breakout can help emphasize what's important (e.g. in D&D, two of six basic traits are about physical toughness, two about magical potential; in Sorcerer, all your "normal life skills" go into one score, "Cover"; in My Life With Master, you have Self-Loathing etc.).

Now, I personally think that it might be more elegant to have Kewl Powerz be manifestations of a particular Uncanny Knowledge in action -- rather the way knowing something's True Name gives you power over it in many stories of sorcerey -- rather than have Power and Knowledge be separate traits. (This would incidentally allow Hosts and Archivists to have the same number of traits in perfect mirror-image). E.g., instead of "laser beam eyes:5" being a Power and "things man was not meant to know:3" being a Knowledge, you'd have one Logos, "I understand the fires of creation:4" and be able to use that to manifest laser-beam eyes (them's fiery!) or to pass unharmed through an inferno (have fun persuading your Host it's safe to do that, though...) or soak up solar energy with your skin and use it for power -- or anything else creative the player can come up wth.

And a question: Are the total values of an Archivist's traits, or at least its Knowledge and Power, capped by, or equal to, its total Transcendence in your scheme, Andrew?

Yeah, I'm somewhat on board with Sydney here. I think Karma systems make so much more sense, as this is a game that's all about choice and consequence. I'm not sure about inserting a Fortune mechanic for Free Will. On the one hand, it seems like a strange exception to throw in. On the other hand, I can see it serving to highlight the unknowable nature of the human spirit. I could probably go either way, it'll all come down to how elegantly it's executed.

Quote from: Sydney FreedbergI really like the idea that maximum Archivist Transcendence is always higher than maximum Host Humanity -- it puts the balance of power, and thus moral responsibility, squarely on the shoulders of the Archivists, i.e. the players, where it should be.

Right, that was the intent. It's one thing to screw over someone who has the power to defend themself, and it's quite another to do the same to someone who is, effectively, helpless.

Quote from: Sydney FreedbergNow, I personally think that it might be more elegant to have Kewl Powerz be manifestations of a particular Uncanny Knowledge in action ... This would incidentally allow Hosts and Archivists to have the same number of traits in perfect mirror-image

Eh? I thought the traits already were in mirror image, that was my intention when setting them up:

Humanity <---> Transcendence  (pure strength and identity)
Free Will <---> Otherworldly Knowledges  (core, unique abilities)
Passions <---> Logoi  (power stemming from one's nature)
Skills <---> Skills  (uhm...well...skills)
Burn <---> Fade  (bad stuff that comes from imbalance)

Quote from: Sydney FreedbergAnd a question: Are the total values of an Archivist's traits, or at least its Knowledge and Power, capped by, or equal to, its total Transcendence in your scheme, Andrew?

I hadn't thought along those lines, but then the mechanics I posted are really just a core, with lots of room to refine and expand.

I really like the idea of the Host being able to screw over the Archivist through chance. Its one thing to look a GM square in the eye and say "Dude! You knew what I had riding on that and you STILL let him do that?! How could you?!" and another to go "Shit- he rolled an X, and with his Free Will that means he's going to oppose me on this!"

Least in my mind, it'd help create the illusion of another 'presence' at the table who says "No, I don't want to do that, it makes me scared like a little 5 year old whos seen the boogie man!"
As to Karma or Fate based on the rest of that, thats excellent. Point allocation type in duels with other Archivists if it comes to it (Throw 3 extra points into "Psionic Field" to keep the energy beam away from the host!) sounds excellent, but I wouldn't like GMs playing with the players through the Hosts. Thats not quite right.

Per everything else- kickin rad ^_^

Quote from: Andrew MorrisEh? I thought the traits already were in mirror image, that was my intention when setting them up:

Humanity <---> Transcendence  (pure strength and identity)
Free Will <---> Otherworldly Knowledges  (core, unique abilities)
Passions <---> Logoi  (power stemming from one's nature)
Skills <---> Skills  (uhm...well...skills)
Burn <---> Fade  (bad stuff that comes from imbalance)

Which I find, frankly, to be a bit too many stats. That's just personal preference, though, nothing wrong with this approach per se.

I prefer:

Human .................. <-> ......... Archivist

Passions <-> Skills ................. Passions <-> Skills
............................................. Knowledge <-> Powerz

Sum = Humanity .................... Sum = Transcendence

(Now, In my proposal in the Nailing Axes thread (last page), I 'name' Archivist Passions differently, but Passions is really what they are - that remnant of humanity and the skills associated with it.)

I'm not comfortable yet with the 'overload' mechanics I had in that post, but the basic layout of Host and Archivist stats (mentioned above) I DO like.

If you, as an archivist, want more control over the Host/symbiosis, that's fine, but once you start burning him, you also start burning his skills away. This makes immediate tension for the player - at what point am I reducing the effectiveness of my tool, even before I consider moral implications?

The burning away of skills from the Host also means there may be an on-going effect on the timestream BESIDES the actions the Archivist is actually having the host do - after all, the Host will live on afterwards (supposedly) and effect the timestream. I just thought there might be a nice parallel to describing 'aftershock' events from outright killing someone - it's basically removing the whole humanity. So whatever resolution system we use, if you kill someone, it's 100% of 1 HP (Human Personality) that goes into the resolution system, if you burn someone for 40%, 0.4 HP goes into the resolution system (and I should note that sometimes it could be good (in relation to Archivist goals) and sometimes bad to kill/burn someone). This on-going effect is another drawback from burning the host (encouraging players to accept Fade).

I'm enthusiastic about a mechanism that pushes a bit of burn on the host initially, but forces the 'good' Archivist to accept Fade himself at some point (Dark Archivists might just Burn their Host as clean as they like and never take Fade - one aspect of their Darkness).

Oh, and I feel strongly about having ALL humans start with the same humanity.

edit: oh, and I'm open to introduction of a Free Will mechanic in here. And different Fade/Burn mechanics based on these basic stats.

(also edited for layout)

Tobias, where do Free Will, Burn, and Fade fit in this system? I'm assuming that you're not doing away with them entirely, but if not, then that's just as many traits I proposed in the first place -- one more, actually.

Check me if I'm misunderstanding your ideas, but it looks to me like the only difference between our systems is that you didn't include a Free Will mechanic for hosts and added Passions to the Archivist traits.

Help me out here. What is the key difference that you are proposing?

I do like the idea that "all the other stuff" equals the Humanity or Transcendence of the host or Archivist. Not sure how we make Transcendence/Humanity work as a limiting factor for Archivist powers, though, so we should figure that out at some point.

Well, anything aside from Knowledge places a potential strain on the human body.
Its said the normal human uses only a fraction of our brain power, leaving what, something like 90% unused? Thats a lot of space.

-I don't think a Host should be Burned for possession and I don't think the Host should be Burned for basic interacting with 'the voices in my head'.
-Knowledge is a fairly passive tool for the Archivist. HOW he shares the Knowledge may determine the Burn. If the Archivist just tells a Host something, that shouldn't do anything. If the Archivist pulls a Clarance thing from Its a Wonderful Life, that might constitute Burning, as would "Understanding of Fires of Life: Laser Eyes"

Quote from: Andrew MorrisTobias, where do Free Will, Burn, and Fade fit in this system? I'm assuming that you're not doing away with them entirely, but if not, then that's just as many traits I proposed in the first place -- one more, actually.

Did you check the link? Over there:

1. Burn is the 'rubbing out' of Host Passions and associated Skills
2. Fade is the 'rubbing out' of Archivist Passions (& skills) and Knowledge (& Logoi/Powerz)
3. Free Will isn't in there because I was arguing that Free Will shouldn't be represented by a score. Since people do seem to be wanting a Free Will score that can be 'thrown' in different directions, I'm looking at putting one in.

Quote
Check me if I'm misunderstanding your ideas, but it looks to me like the only difference between our systems is that you didn't include a Free Will mechanic for hosts and added Passions to the Archivist traits.

That's certainly a way to look at it. :) In fact, re-examining it, your system is simpler than mine (and that's good!). Guess my earlier comments were due to one system being my own (and thus more familiair and seemingly simpler).

On Free Will: see above.

On 'adding Passion for Archivists' - yeah, you could look at it this way.

Basically, what I want to communicate is that there are only 2 'primal' stats: Passions and Knowledges

Passions are what make things Human. From Passions always derive skills.

Transcendental Knowledge is the tie of a thing to Transcendence. From it always derives a Powr.

The sum of Passions is Humanity for the Human, The sum of Passions and Knowledge is Transcendence for the Archivist (which is why I originally called Archivist Passion something else - so that it wouldn't be mistaken for Humanity).

That's about it. De-coupling skills from passions would allow your system to work just fine as well. I like the thought of the double-edged sword of Burning your host, though: you destroy his opposition (his Passion), but possibly his usefulness (skill) at the same time.

daMoose_Neo: i guess I could live with the Host not being burned for posession - but how about the archivist taking some Fade, then? Tough Choices are a central theme of the game (and making the player choose between 2 negatives certainly is one), but it might bog down the game (or even make it annoying if there's too much focus on negatives all the time).

How about an "Archivist's Field Kit" then?

The Player/Archivist has all this information and traits they possess.
Now, its time to possess a Human.
According to the HTT/AT discussion, we agreed Archivists left a portion of themselves in the Great Library and were capable of taking certain information with them even from other Archivists to HTT. So, why not do exactly that?
When possessing, see how much "room" the Host has for the Archivist baggage and make the player select which options to take with them and which to 'leave' with their otherself in the Great Library.
An Archivist could look at one situation and see that "Understanding of Sentiant Life" is useful to the situation while "Understand of Fires of Creation" isn't. Thus, while in the Host, the Archivist has access to knowledge and Kewl Powerz related to the "Sentiant Life" trait (ESP, Life sign tracking, initmate personal knowledge of complete strangers) but not the "Fires of Creation" aspects (Laser eyes, history of a location (the Creation of it))

Thus, the player has to make choices, but not so tough. It isn't damaging to the Archivist because something HAS to stay behind, it may as well be the useless stuff. Making them choose between losing one of the two forever though, would royally suck.

Tobias:

Okay, I think I see the key differences now. I thought of Fade and Burn in much the same way you explain it. What I was thinking would be that instead of automatically taking traits away, Burn and Fade would have a numerical score. Once that score reached a predetermined threshold, it would reset at zero, and something (like a trait) would be taken away. For example, you're at 8 Fade and take 3 more points of Fade. Your Fade would now be 1 and you'd lose, say, a point of a particular Logos.

As to free will not being represented by a score, personally, I think we should have it. How else would we model the fact that some humans have more or less power to resist an Archivist? Of course we could say that they don't differ in their ability to resist Archivists, if we wanted to go that way.

So, going back to the main difference for a moment, check me again. In your model, Skills stem from Passions and Logoi stem from Otherworldly Knowledges, correct?

Thus, when a Passion was "burned out" of the host, the related skills would also be lost, right? Likewise, an Archivist who lost Otherworldly Knowledge due to Fade would lose the Logoi attached to the particular Knowledge? I like the "feel" of this setup, but does it mean that a host can never have a Skill if they are not passionate about it? For example, I'm very good at my job (in game terms, I'd have a high Skill at it). But I don't have a Passion about it one way or the other. Could we still represent situations like this in the game?

Nate:

Let's call the point where Archivist intervention begins to be dangerous (to host or Archivist or both) the "danger line." You're saying the danger line should be after communication with the host, but before the granting of powers. Is that right? My personal feeling is that the danger line should be after possessing the host (experiencing through the host's senses) but before even communication. I think there should be a very narrow area of safety for the players. I could be swayed though, so I'd like to know your reasons for setting the danger line where you suggest.

Assuming the intellectual wavelength from the HTT/AT Thread, I'd assume an Archivist would 'jump in' to the Host's mind functions somehow. As I said as well, Humans use less than their entire mental capacity, which leaves a lot of space for something to jump in.
Also assuming Archivists act muses, the most intelligent people can still function very well in socioty. A few are driven mad by a complete understanding of one field or another. But, for the most part, the folks function very well, even if they have an extradimensional force whispering in their ear.
Doing so is really no different than speaking right to the Host. Imagine if instead of thinking something, that internal voice you hear in your mind says instead "I'm an extradimensional entity and here's what you have to do."
Disconcerting, yes, but damaging? I can't really say so. The Host may notice *something* prior to full disclosure, but couldn't be much more than a headache or slight muscle ache, the body becoming accustomed to another presence also exercising influance over the body. The human body, given proper chance, can adapt to a lot that its not normally accustomed to: Pain, Temperature, Body deformations

Looking back at what we said Archivists do aside from outright bestowment of Kewl Powers and such, I really can't see the great minds of our world suffering from 'Burn' and loss of self. Really, they lived like any other person, excelling in their field and then fading off into old age. Some grew more eccentric, but that stems more from the extreme understanding than anything else. Insurance Accuaries who deal only with numbers are very intelligent people...but many live under the assumption the numbers CREATE reality, not REPRESENT reality.

I just have a hard time as seeing knowledge as 'damaging'.