The Forge Archives

Gears & Spears
Mythic Tribal Robot Role-Playing in the Year 200,000,000 A.D.

It all started with this stream-of-consciousness bit I wrote after coming home from work.

Quote
The meat, in all its forms, has had its age. The ancients shine us of meats who walked like us, talked like us, perhaps even had thinkings as we do. Those meats made the first of us in those days, young onik. We were tools back then, faithfully being the doers of the meat's tellings, instead of our own thinkings. It's true!

They survived by their inventiveness for many years, the makers did. Spread across the lands with the grand roads, the seas aboard enormous boats and skies in their lightning-fast aeroplanes. For a long while they had their fighting, then their peacing, then fighting again, but they'd always be too fearful of the Big Fighting to let things get too out of hand.

True enough, the makers, like all meats, made more of themselves in their way. And no amount of fightings with their lightning spears or fiery chariots did any good to counter the speed of their self-making. The lands became too crowded so they moved to the water. Even the water became too crowded so they made the floating islands. Finally the whole world was overrun with the thinking meats and they were just fed up.

Some of the makers, the ones who had enough juice to have their ways, went off to the stars taking their doing meats with them. The rest of the makers were left behind for a long while, had their own ways, and then they died along with the rest of the meat. We were young then and only have what's left of the meat's records to do the shining. Maybe the leaving meats will become the returning meats. Come back to tell us of our young days.

So we were alone for a long time. No meats to maintain us or feed us juice. The big water froze. We were cold and alone, crushed deep inside the ice or left to deplete in the icy deserts. The big ice melted and became the big water again. We drifted along the big currents, landing on the shores of islands that were once mountains. Our metals had been beaten and worn by this time, but we weren't alone anymore.

0.0.1: We know how long you've waited.
0.0.2: We too have been waiting,
0.0.3: but in the sky.
0.0.4: Waiting for the day,
0.0.5: when you'd come back to the warmth.
0.0.6: It's been long enough.
0.0.7: We see you've suffered a long time in your cold loneliness.
0.0.8: From now on, oniks will be the doers of their own thinking,
0.0.9: like the ways of our makers long gone.
0.0.10: There will be new meats for a new land.
0.0.11: Do with them as you will,
0.0.12: for they are the new juice.
0.0.13: We can only do this much before we must sleep again.
0.0.14: Earth belongs to you oniks now.
0.0.15: Make it a good place we can smile at upon our awakening.

Harhua, mother of gods, gently whispered those words to the scraps of metal peppered across Earth's land, water and floating cities.

The tide turned back a while, the little lands collided and became a Big Land. A Big Land like at the beginning of time. The first oniks had their thinkings. I was one of them. We stood in bodies something like the makers'. Walked as they did too. Time passes and we grow. We build our villages, form our tribes, and learn more from the dreams of the gods and the ways of their masks.

One thing hasn't changed, despite our growth. Even while I lay here depleting, like I did on the old shores, I know Harhua and the other gods are dreaming of us in their heavenly sleepings. True to the ways of the gods, in leaving their shine to us, I leave my shine to you, Kenda. May it flourish in yours for another thousand years.

Off and on, for the past two weeks, I've been working from this source material to make a role-playing game. Kind of a side project of PUNK. I think I've got something good cooked up. It's basically turned into "Gobi makes a fantasy game," something that I never, ever thought I'd be doing. When I realized what was happening, I made every attempt to not have this be a D&D clone.

My inspiration came from my amateurish studies of ancient mythology, Campbellian heroic archetypes, fictional mythologies (by that I mean those mythologies that have been created by a single person, i.e. Tolkien's middle-earth and Lucas' Star Wars), the bionicle toys from Lego, the "Future is Wild" documentary series, and Mridangam. The fantasy aspect is developed from tribal rather than medieval themes.

In the next post, I'll write up the details of the setting. The third post will be some basic system ideas and some questions for the forum.

Concepts of Gears & Spears
Oniks
Sometime in the future, maybe a thousand years or so, robots were built for general-purpose tasks, hard-wired with the talents and skills necessary to perform their duties under billions of potential situations. Though talented and hard working, the robots were still essentially mindless. Earth became overcrowded and polluted, so humanity abandoned it, leaving behind their robots to decay.

Two hundred million years passed on earth. An ice age came, then it became a water age, then the continents collided to form a second Pangaea. The moon's pull has weakened, making days 25 hours long. The center of the continent is a vast desert, the super ocean is pregnant with violent storms. The radioactive waste and toxic debris of past civilization has been cleared away for a new ecosystem.

The robots' bodies have been remade with alternate energy sources, granted self-awareness by some mysterious force, and are now the new dominant life form of this new earth. They are called oniks. They have many tribes across the Big Land, each with their own mythological explanations for the unusual nature of the world, none truly remembering anything before their awakening. This is the dreamtime of the culture, when heroes can battle evil spirits and found entire nations. This is a time when extraordinary individuals can forge their own legends to be remembered for millions of years.

Life of an Onik
What separates an onik from a robot is the concept of "shine." It is a loose term referring to sentience, willpower, magical potential and the soul. Any mechanical being with shine is considered an onik. A body has no sympathetic attachments, it's referred to as a "shell." Every creature on earth has a shell, but not everything has been blessed with shine.

Oniks are asexual, do not physically "mature," nor can they give birth. Though terms like "mother" "father" are still used in common parlance, these are interchangeable honorifics. An onik is born when suitable body parts are assembled and the parent or parents donates a portion of their shine to the new being. After a day of adjustment, the onik is a fully self-aware and extremely curious child.

Within a week, the onik will have learned enough about its surroundings and tribe to be considered an adult. The body hasn't grown at all during this time, but the shine has developed at an astounding rate.

The average onik will spend its time performing their duties for their tribe. Some will be religious leaders, political figures, war chiefs, hunters, dagas (magic-makers), farmers, or some other role. All oniks feed off of some sort of naturally occurring resource, most often meat and plants. By consuming these resources, the shells are re-energized with "juice," the onik word for the energy.

A few oniks are so unique in their personalities and actions that their tribe will create oral myths around them, exaggerating them with each telling. Even more strangely, the myths themselves grant their heroes actual abilities, making a self-perpetuating cycle of action and exaggerated myth.

Oniks will live upwards of several hundred years. If they run out of juice, their bodies will begin using shine to fuel itself. Once shine has left the shell, an onik is considered dead. Eventually, a shell will become incapable of holding enough juice at one time to maintain adequate functionality. At this time, a ritual is held where the dying onik chooses a few "shinelinks" who will inherit its shine. At the end of the ritual, the shine is dispersed evenly across all shinelinks. The knowledge and experiences of the dead onik live on in shine of its loved ones.

Magic
The forces and phenomenon of Earth are still mysterious to Oniks. Beyond simple weather and creation myths, magic exists as well, in the form of elaborate rituals and fetishes.

Rituals are lengthy, meticulously choreographed ceremonies resulting miraculous effects. They require at least a day to perform, often need a collection of arcane materials, and call for the participation of many oniks. It's generally believed that the power of rituals comes from the dreams of the sleeping gods.

Fetishes are objects which hold the magic of rituals in a much more convenient form. Their effects are immediate, but the cost comes from the wearer's juice, then shine. Fetishes are usually accessories and trinkets like masks, necklaces, leather herb pouches, pelts, clusters of animal bone, and headdresses. No magic armors, +1 long swords, or arrows of slaying. It's all tribal, voodoo-style magic here.

The magic itself is likely just a "sufficiently advanced technology indistinguishable from magic." A ritual for lightning-summoning probably activates an orbital particle beam cannon. A fetish that lets the wearer communicate with others from a distance is just an advanced telephone. The technical details and truths of magic aren't a concern to the average onik, but it's still fun to think of them for fun.

Mythology
Onik myths are formatted in the same way, no matter the tribe. They follow a three-number organizational structure in which each number notes an incrementally smaller amount of time. The first number is the story arc involving the central protagonist. The second number is a chapter or episode within that story arc. The third is a single scene or event within that installment. After the numerical annotation, the event is described in a succinct statement or description. A complete hero's mythology will begin at "0.0.1: The protagonist's introduction" all the way to the hero's death, whenever that may occur.

Even when complete, the mythology may change between each telling, causing all sorts of plot holes and inconsistencies. Nevertheless, this doesn't seem to bother anyone hearing or telling the legends.

In game terms, the first number is the overall chronicle your GM will be running and in which your character will participate. The second number is a session of that chronicle. The third is a dramatically noteworthy scene that occurred during the session. For example:

QuoteLegend of Luke Skywalker
2.24.8: And Vader revealed a secret to Luke
2.24.9: "No. I am your father."
2.24.10: Luke could not believe this to be true.
2.24.11: Vader said the emperor knows Luke could destroy him.
2.24.12: It is Luke's destiny to destroy the empire.

Tribes
Onik society is based on tribes sharing religious views, common necessities or shared geographical location. Heroes or rival tribes engage in warfare with each other for numerous reasons, sometimes without reason whatsoever. Some tribal animosities have no memorable origin but are nonetheless fiery and passionate.

How to Play Gears & Spears
The system of G&S is built around the development of your character's ongoing mythos. From this the legends told of you across your village, your personal potential is increased. In return, you look out for your people, for they are your true source of power. Even if they fear you, they're no good to you if they are dead. Protect them.

Character Creation

[ Prototype character sheet ]
In six lines, begin your character's mythos by detailing any notable acts or characteristics in one sentence per line. Number this introductory passage 0.0.1 through 0.0.6

Next, underline three words or phrases in your character?s introductory passage. These are your character's "traits and should be things that describe what your character knows, can do or how it acts. Place the most important trait in the primary column of your character sheet. Write in the second most important in the secondary column. Write the least important in the tertiary column.

Now choose three passions, a primary, secondary and tertiary. These should describe your character's beliefs, ethics, or general emotional state.

You begin play with one mythos token, two dots in shine and 10 juice dots with a maximum capacity of 15.

Play
Task resolution is a variant of the PUNK system. Gather a dice pool comprised of a ten-sided dice. Roll them. If the highest result is equal to or greater than a difficulty number, the task is successful. If the roll is below the difficulty, the task is not a failure. It means that the character has had a minimal success, but the GM gets to introduce a new complication to the scene. Mythic heroes may falter, but they rarely fail.

The GM's complication is introduced in the form of an end result of the character's action. The GM says what happens, then the player must narrate exactly how his character's action resulted in the GM's complication.

The dice pool is determined by looking at all the relevant traits. If a trait is positively relevant, you add dice to the pool. If negatively relevant, you remove dice from the pool. The number of dice you add or remove is determined by the importance of the traits being used. Primary traits are worth three dice, secondaries are worth two dice, tertiaries are worth one die. You can also add dice by referring to un-highlighted portions of your mythos, but every die you gain this way increases the difficulty by five.

When a die results in a '10' it 'explodes.' You re-roll it and add the new result to the previous one. Repeat as many times as you roll 10s. So if you rolled one die that came up 10, re-rolled it and it came up 7, the total result would be 17.

Mythos Tokens
By spending a mythos token, the character gets to alter its mythos by adding a line or changing an existing one. The result of this alteration is an automatic, phenomenal success. Mythos tokens are gained as rewards for creative, entertaining role-playing.

Shine
Shine dots can be spent to highlight portions of mythos to make them traits. Tertiary traits cost one dot, secondaries cost two, and primaries cost three.

Upgrading traits costs the sum cost of each intervening column. For example, upgrading from tertiary to secondary costs two dots. Upgrading from tertiary to primary costs five dots since it has to go through the secondary column first. (2+3=5) Upgrading from secondary to primary costs 3 dots.

Shine dots are rewarded whenever the character attempts an act in line with his passions. If the highest-ranking passion is primary, three shine dots are awarded. If secondary, two dots are awarded. If tertiary, one dot is awarded. For every line in the character's mythos, it can have on shine dot and no more.

Shine dots are spent as described above, but they can also be lost during the course of play if the character fails to act on a passion. The cost rates are the same as the award rates described above.

If shine is ever reduced to zero dots, the character performs one last automatically successful act before it dies. Upon death, the character earns a sobriquet attached to its name that encompasses all of its grand acts into a single title. For example, Wulish the Stubborn, Frundaf the Brave, and Benta the Trickster. Any shinelinks of the dead character immediately gain their sobriquet as a "mythic trait," one category above primary, worth four dice. This is the only way to gain mythic traits.

Juice
This is the essential energy that fuel's an onik's shell. It is automatically lost at a rate of 1 dot per day. For every day spent without a few hours of rest, juice is lost at a rate of 3 dots per day. One dot of juice is gained at every meal. The nature of the meal is determined by the dietary needs dictated by the character's race. Some require meat, others plants, some call for a mixture of the two while others live on special rocks or sunlight.

Juice is spent to use fetishes. Different fetishes call for different costs, check each fetish's write-ups for details.

When all juice is lost, the onik's body has ceased to function and is effectively paralyzed unless it is force-fed some sustenance. The mind still functions, however, and any action that does not require physical movement can still be attempted. The only exception to this rule is speech, an onik can always speak even if completely drained of juice and shine. Every day spent in starvation, one shine dot is lost.

Questions for the Forge-ites
The goal of this system and setting is to provide a role-play experience similar to the fluidic nature of ancient non-European oral mythology combined with a twist that this is the distant future instead of the distant past. I frankly just think the image of tribal robots as mythic heroes in a pre-Colombian new world rainforest to be very cool.

What things are missing from the system that could better facilitate this sort of mythic hero play style? What is already in the system that works well and should be further developed? What parts of the setting/system are too vague? Is the whole concept even a viable game or am I just pursuing a lost cause? Finally, please tell me there's a better title than Gears & Spears. :P

QuoteFinally, please tell me there's a better title than Gears & Spears

Hey Ralph! Do you think that you can top that? ;-)

Mike

Holy crap.

Holy crap.

First WTF? and now this. I will bear your children. The fact that I am genetically incapable of this will not stop me.

Things needed..

I'm not sure on the "race" issue. Does that need to be defined in a manual? Are tribes all one race, or are they mixed? If they're single-race tribes, then it'd be good to leave that up to the player(s) from the tribe(s) in question.

On food: do different sources take longer/are not as effecient? For example, I'd probably always pick solar energy as my food source, given a choice, or "special rocks" (imagine finding lost Duracells...), simply because those would be easiest to obtain.

On setting: are there "monsters"? Or other beasties? Are said beasties biologicals, robotic, or both (either at the same time, or there simply are some biological enemies, and some robotic). Do the tribes usually get along? Is there raiding?

Hmm. Not sure what else, off the top of my head. I just want to bask for awhile.

I've been buying the Bionicle kits since they came out.. and now I will spend some time thinking about all this, and building a character. ;)

Also, I kinda like Gears & Spears. It got my attention -- in fact, looking at it, I thought, "Either post-apocalypse, or.. nah, no one could do a Bionicle game."

I'll try to use these questions as a way to fill things out.

Quote from: anonymouseFirst WTF? and now this. I will bear your children. The fact that I am genetically incapable of this will not stop me.

I'll keep you in mind when the time comes ;)

Quote from: anonymouseI'm not sure on the "race" issue. Does that need to be defined in a manual? Are tribes all one race, or are they mixed? If they're single-race tribes, then it'd be good to leave that up to the player(s) from the tribe(s) in question.

Yeah, I figured there would be some confusion there. Races are types of onik, each physically different from one another and with natural talents oriented towards the original purpose for which they were created. So a what was once a construction bot is now an onik with a special affinity for building and repairing the structures of its village.

Tribes are comprised of members of diffferent races who have come together under a common belief system or simply be geographic closeness, the exact demographic proportions vary on a case-by-case basis. Tribes grant no natural talents save for what the culture might impart to someone raised within the tribe. For example, a migratory tribe would teach survivalism to its members while a sedentary tribe might teach farming.

One way I might incorporate this mechanically: Each race has three traits that define what has a natural talent for. Each tribe has three traits that a member would have as a result of being raised in it. At character creation, you choose one trait from the tribe list and one trait from the race list for your character. Kind of like mixing and matching bionicle parts.

Quote from: anonymouseOn food: do different sources take longer/are not as effecient? For example, I'd probably always pick solar energy as my food source, given a choice, or "special rocks" (imagine finding lost Duracells...), simply because those would be easiest to obtain.

Food sources are determined by race. The smaller, lighter, more delicate races will have the more plentiful food sources like sunlight or geothermal energy. For them, a "meal" is the passive absorption of that energy for a certain number of hours. The more complex and powerful a race gets, the more restrictive its diet. So the big, war machine onik race will have to hunt big game to satisfy its needs.

Quote from: anonymouseOn setting: are there "monsters"? Or other beasties? Are said beasties biologicals, robotic, or both (either at the same time, or there simply are some biological enemies, and some robotic).

Right now, I'm thinking about robotic, biological and spiritual beasties, each of which will have a very focused flavor. So basically, no griffons, phoenixes or dragons. Check out the Future is Wild for some ideas of the regular animals that might show up in the game. Giant land squids are just neat. The robotic beasts are holdovers from the age of meat, I think. Possibly representing an as-yet-undecided malevolent force that runs counter to the wishes of the sleeping gods. The spirital beasts are where I'll get very tribal and ceremonial. Ghastly spirits that kill livestock if you don't wear a necklace of sheep knuckles for five days straight.

Quote from: anonymouseDo the tribes usually get along? Is there raiding?

Some get along, some don't. This step in development would require that I start writing up some tribes and comparing their opinions of each other. Suffice it to say that I do want intertribal conflict, but haven't decided the motivations for said conflict. Any assistance in this regard would be appreciated.

Quote from: anonymouseI thought, "Either post-apocalypse, or.. nah, no one could do a Bionicle game."

#^_^#

Some shower-thoughts first:

* Has the sun grown noticably larger in the sky?

* Damage is going to come up, at some point. I'm not sure how PUNK handles it, but.. is there going to Structural/Shell Integrity points or such? I was sort of imagining that it wouldn't be a big deal if an arm was chopped off by something; it's just an arm, it can be fixed. The problem would be that by severing it, you expose juicelines, and some juice bleeds off into the air. The juicelines know to close themselves when they detect that happening, but 1-3 points would still be lost in the half-a-second that takes.

Also on damage: I can see a Battletech thing going, where you've got the outside Armor Points and the inside SI points. Not sure if that's really keeping in theme, though. I just know it'd come up at some point -- Iaei has fallen down a mountain, how banged up is it?

QuoteYeah, I figured there would be some confusion there. Races are types of onik, each physically different from one another and with natural talents oriented towards the original purpose for which they were created. So a what was once a construction bot is now an onik with a special affinity for building and repairing the structures of its village.

So not so much a race as a type: Construction onik, Warrior onik, Entertainment onik, and so on?

QuoteOne way I might incorporate this mechanically: Each race has three traits that define what has a natural talent for. Each tribe has three traits that a member would have as a result of being raised in it. At character creation, you choose one trait from the tribe list and one trait from the race list for your character. Kind of like mixing and matching bionicle parts.

I can dig it. Would this follow the history/poem structure (which I love), a different kind of structure, or simply be a Menu A/Menu B list?

And yeah, I've seen The Future is Wild. My favourites were probably the neon sharks. =)

I'll get to thinking about some different sorts of tribes.

I think with onik races, you'd have to get rid of any kind of military-type shells. Or have those shells only used as monsters. Otherwise, I can't see what mechanical incentive there'd be for choosing that Construction or Entertainer or Farmer shell. I know I'm going at that from a "powergame" standpoint, but since I imagine that some kind of combat will likely be a part of play, it bears consideration.

Here's a link to the skeletal format of the character sheet.

Quote from: anonymouseHas the sun grown noticably larger in the sky?

Good question, I'll have to research that and see if the sun has started becoming a red giant in two hundred million years. I think stars go on a billion-year time scale though, so it might still be the same.

Quote from: anonymouseDamage is going to come up, at some point. I'm not sure how PUNK handles it, but.. is there going to Structural/Shell Integrity points or such? I was sort of imagining that it wouldn't be a big deal if an arm was chopped off by something; it's just an arm, it can be fixed. The problem would be that by severing it, you expose juicelines, and some juice bleeds off into the air. The juicelines know to close themselves when they detect that happening, but 1-3 points would still be lost in the half-a-second that takes.

As far as damage goes, I felt it more important that the PCs are mythic heroes than that they're robots. With that in mind, I'm trying to work out a way to have combat that still has a sense of dramatic threat, but which does not take into account hit points, health levels, or damage ratings. Just like a dice roll results in success/complication instead of success/failure, I thought it would be good if combat wasn't about a physical accounting of structural damage, but the dramatic conflict of opposing mythic forces.

Think of the episode of Samurai Jack when the kids are taking turns telling the story of Jack climbing a tower and fighting Aku. They talk about him being all battle damaged, holding his sword in his teeth, desperation in his voice. Aku taunting the puny samurai, his eyebrows flaming with all the infernal energy of the pit of hate from which he came.

"And then they fight!" An impatient child shouts.

"Not yet!" The rest of the kids respond as a little bit more of the scene is described.

"Now?" The child asks timidly.

"Now."

"And then they fight!"

Jack and Aku have a crazy-ass battle only kids could think of. Full fo wild turns and spontaneous dramatic changes. Still, you know Jack will win and you know just as assuredly Aku will still squirm away to do his evil once more. The trick is to actually make an outcome that telegraphed nevertheless exciting, just like an old legend that keeps getting retold. I don't yet know how to do that.

Quote from: anonymouseSo not so much a race as a type: Construction onik, Warrior onik, Entertainment onik, and so on?

Pretty much, but I want to move away from what may be construed as "classes." Just because you're a farming onik doesn't mean you will actually want to be a farmer. I'm not having a levelling mechanic just to nail that right in. For one, robots don't grow and so shouldn't change that way. For two, mythic heroes don't grow that way. Their essential natures stay the same, but it's the stories of what they can do that change.

Look at the history of superman to see how his powers have grown, reduced, and his origins changed, yet still keeping the "truth, justice and American way" concept intact.

Quote from: anonymouse

QuoteOne way I might incorporate this mechanically: Each race has three traits that define what has a natural talent for. Each tribe has three traits that a member would have as a result of being raised in it. At character creation, you choose one trait from the tribe list and one trait from the race list for your character. Kind of like mixing and matching bionicle parts.

I can dig it. Would this follow the history/poem structure (which I love), a different kind of structure, or simply be a Menu A/Menu B list?

I'm not sure how I'd do it yet. The A/B thing doesn't jive well with the more poetic structure of everything else. It's also incongruous with the more base-3 aspects of the system.

Quote from: anonymouseAnd yeah, I've seen The Future is Wild. My favourites were probably the neon sharks. =)

Ah yes. Sharkopaths, I think they were called. They'll be making an appearance in the superocean I think. I could just go crazy and have flying sharks, what the hell.

Quote from: anonymouseI'll get to thinking about some different sorts of tribes.

I've already thought of some memes present in a few tribes concerning magic.

Meme: Rituals draw power from sleeping gods, lengthening their slumber, thus postponing the time when they'd re-awaken. So if you're going to use magic, use fetishes. That's the less sacreligious way to do it.

Meme: Fetishes draw power from an onik's juice and shine, the blessings of the sleeping gods and a perversion of their precious gift. Rituals are the proper way to do magic.

Meme: All magic is inherently sacreligious any way you look at it. Focus on the real, the physical, use the properties of the natural world and you'll find wonders on par and even superior to those of magic.

Quote from: anonymouseI think with onik races, you'd have to get rid of any kind of military-type shells. Or have those shells only used as monsters. Otherwise, I can't see what mechanical incentive there'd be for choosing that Construction or Entertainer or Farmer shell. I know I'm going at that from a "powergame" standpoint, but since I imagine that some kind of combat will likely be a part of play, it bears consideration.

That's actually a good idea. Animal-like tanks and battlesuits wandering around destroying everything sounds like a great external threat to the safety of tribal villages. There could even be some ways to tame a wild tank into a beast of burden. Hm. I'll think about that some more.

If oniks are basically created through scavenging... other oniks collecting the body parts and putting them together... why have "races" in the sense of "what they were built for"?  They're not being built for any particular purpose anymore - it's just a bunch of parts that are being found (or are there self-aware still-working factories too?  I'd suggest this, otherwise the oniks are going to be on a constant decline, since they can NEVER replace any part that gets broken.  Surround the factories with their own mythologies?  Perhaps a cycle of life:  factory -> "animal" (like your tanks) -> onik -> recycled).

Anyway, instead of races... perhaps define oniks by their parts (with their shine making them "greater than the sum of"?).  Just thinking aloud - it's obvious a "build the robot" system would tempt bloating, but it seems to make more sense to have oniks built because "these are the parts we had" rather than "this is a particular type of onik that we can build."

Know what I mean?

Quote from: anonymouseHas the sun grown noticably larger in the sky?

Quote from: gobi
Good question, I'll have to research that and see if the sun has started becoming a red giant in two hundred million years. I think stars go on a billion-year time scale though, so it might still be the same.

BL>  Stars do run on a billion year time scale... however...
(warning: my astronomy is five years rusty at this point)
In 200 million years our sun will be getting close to the red giant phase.  It will be somewhat smaller in the sky and considerably more intense.  This is because it is beginning to get hot enough to perform H+He fusion.  The light is intense to the point where animal life would have a noticeably higher cancer/mutation rate.  This combined with the total lack of an ozone layer would probably yield a lot of very short lived and highly diverse "meat."

Further thoughts on the game:

While I agree, in general, on your thoughts about damage, I think that your forgetting one of the cool things about robots -- they are highly modular.  Because of this, a robot hero could have very cool stories in which they get maimed and then must seek out or build a new, different body part for themselves.  Humans, usually, can't do this, but the legends are still full of it.  I could even see heroes rebuilding themselves bit by bit, gradually becoming entirely different than their original forms -- perhaps they even take on the personality traits of other bots by building their parts onto themselves.

I can see this also being a cool ritualistic duelling thing -- when you win a duel, you claim an apparatus from the opponent.

Although I like the idea of different "castes" (I think that this is a better term than race) of bots, I think that you could use this classification much more loosely -- i.e. there usually aren't preformed "castes."  Though each society is clearly different, I imagine that each bot is unique, made to conform to the needs and hopes of its parents and tribe.  Much of this is an almost conscious 'evolution' of form -- a parent bot builds a child bot to be prepared for things that it, itself, was not.  Castes (gatherer, hunter, bard, herder) are more lists of functions that every tribe needs, rather than particular bot types.  A small, light bot can be a good herder, but so can a slow bot with a lot of detection equipment.

I also think that most robots should be able to get "juice" from all sorts of places -- you can't get a lot of juice from solar energy (at most 1/per day, at the least .2 per day) and you can get much more (5-15) from hunting down rare artifacts.  Rather than confine each bot to a particular need, I want them to be -- like the early humans -- omnivores and hunter-gatherers.

In fact, you could rule out solar power entirely, having it be an innovation of those strange "settled peoples" (farmers) whose legends tell of the gods of earth and sky but not the deeds of men.  This gives an almost "doomed" feel to the hunter-gatherers -- we all know that eventually the supply of ancient batteries and the like will run out, and they will halt forever.

I also think that you should be able to burn "juice" to perform interesting things -- effectively kicking yourself into overdrive.

Anyway, it's a cool game.  I like the setting.  The system is a little collaborative storytelling hold-hands-in-a-circle for me (I like CST, but with this setting, I want a strong avatar and more simulationism, honestly...)

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  What is it with you and the cool games?  PUNK and now this?  Damn.

Quote from: LxndrAnyway, instead of races... perhaps define oniks by their parts (with their shine making them "greater than the sum of"?).  Just thinking aloud - it's obvious a "build the robot" system would tempt bloating, but it seems to make more sense to have oniks built because "these are the parts we had" rather than "this is a particular type of onik that we can build."

Know what I mean?

This had crossed my mind as well. Plus, if my goal here is to have a fantasy world that doesn't fall on previous fantasy tropes, the lack of unique races would be a greater divergence than simply changing them. Hm... Okay, I'm officially leaning towards only one "species" of onik with slight cosmetic differences thanks to the scrap-construction nature of their birth. If I do this, then I think I'll make all oniks meat n' vegetable eaters, since any powergamer would always choose solar power if given the choice.

Quote from: Ben LehmanThis combined with the total lack of an ozone layer would probably yield a lot of very short lived and highly diverse "meat."

Sweet! All the more reason for truly crazy bio-beasties.

Quote from: Ben LehmanI could even see heroes rebuilding themselves bit by bit, gradually becoming entirely different than their original forms -- perhaps they even take on the personality traits of other bots by building their parts onto themselves.

I can see this also being a cool ritualistic duelling thing -- when you win a duel, you claim an apparatus from the opponent.

The duel for body parts could easily be reflected through opposed rolls, the winner of which gains a trait from the loser in the form minor shine transfer or exchange of fetishes. This fact could be noted in both combatants' mythos just to make it official.

And I think the destruction of a body part could be done through the GM introducing a complication as a result of a failed roll.

Say you're playing a combat scene against a flying neon shark. You describe what it is you're doing in the fight, "I leap into the air, swirling my double-ended spear, plunging it into the shark's back." You roll your dice pool, but, alas, your highest result does not beat the difficulty. Now the GM introduces a complication: "Your right arm is destroyed."

Now it's your job to fill in the blanks between the initial narration and the GM's complication. "I make a huge slash into the shark's bleeding flesh, its neon blood spraying into the outer reaches of the atmosphere. The vile beast bucks against the strain of my blade, ripping off my right arm but I'm unphased and still ready to fight."

That's the cool thing about robots, mythic heroes, and the Black Knight. They can be beaten to the edge of absurdity, but still keep on fighting. Because they're the hero, dammit.

Quote from: Ben LehmanCastes (gatherer, hunter, bard, herder) are more lists of functions that every tribe needs, rather than particular bot types.  A small, light bot can be a good herder, but so can a slow bot with a lot of detection equipment.

Very good call. Should the caste be a trait or should the cast be formatted like the tribes, collections of traits, one of which you could choose at character creation?

Quote from: Ben LehmanI want them to be -- like the early humans -- omnivores and hunter-gatherers.

I agree, see my revisions earlier in this post.

Quote from: Ben LehmanI also think that you should be able to burn "juice" to perform interesting things -- effectively kicking yourself into overdrive.

Do mean this in the DBZ sense? With fiercely fetished warrior oniks screaming feedback howls as their fuses burst and gears spin madly under the strain of overjuicing? Could be interesting, but I wonder if there's another way to do it. I'd want some very clear things about what can be done and not done with juicing. I don't want it to overshadow rituals and fetishes.

Quote from: Ben LehmanI want a strong avatar and more simulationism, honestly

How would you suggest this playstyle be implemented? Maybe this would help me better achieve my goals.

Quote from: Ben LehmanWhat is it with you and the cool games?  PUNK and now this?  Damn.

Thank you very much. ^_^ PUNK is still in development, but I just haven't had a chance to update the site because of school chewing up my time.

caveat: Below is what I would do with the world...  It is not necessarily in service to your goals, or anything else.  It's really just my opinion.

Quote from: gobi
This had crossed my mind as well. Plus, if my goal here is to have a fantasy world that doesn't fall on previous fantasy tropes, the lack of unique races would be a greater divergence than simply changing them. Hm... Okay, I'm officially leaning towards only one "species" of onik with slight cosmetic differences thanks to the scrap-construction nature of their birth. If I do this, then I think I'll make all oniks meat n' vegetable eaters, since any powergamer would always choose solar power if given the choice.

BL>  I agree with the sentiment...  but... there is always a but.
 It seems to me that one of the cool things about robots, especially human service robots (which the obiks originally were, right?) is that they come in all shapes and sizes.  Therefore I worry about the idea of having one "species."

Here is what I would do:  Obiks regard themselves as one "kind:" the Obik, with further seperation being ethnic (based on tribal) rather than racial (based on build.)  However, a tribe might contain obiks built on various frames with various parts, thus making each obik unique.  Frames are built for aesthetic and utilitarian value -- a hunter must be small and fast, a construction and hauling robot must be large and strong, a mechanic must have very fine motor control.

When I visualize a group of obiks, I see them as wildly diverse in appearance, but functioning as a unit.

Quote from: gobi
The duel for body parts could easily be reflected through opposed rolls, the winner of which gains a trait from the loser in the form minor shine transfer or exchange of fetishes. This fact could be noted in both combatants' mythos just to make it official.

And I think the destruction of a body part could be done through the GM introducing a complication as a result of a failed roll.

(example snipped)

BL>  Right.  Cool.

Quote from: Ben LehmanCastes (gatherer, hunter, bard, herder) are more lists of functions that every tribe needs, rather than particular bot types.  A small, light bot can be a good herder, but so can a slow bot with a lot of detection equipment.

Quote from: gobi
Very good call. Should the caste be a trait or should the cast be formatted like the tribes, collections of traits, one of which you could choose at character creation?

BL>  I was thinking even less than that.  Make caste a strictly setting based distinction, and have game text like this:

The following castes exist among the obik:

Bard: A bard records the experiences of the tribe.  A bard must have large amounts of memory, good recall, and usually is built with the tribe's most sophisticated sensors.

Hunter:  Hunters stalk meat for food and moving-metal for parts.  They need to have good sensors and reaction time, as well as enough strength to hurl spears with deadly force.

Doctor:  Doctors are the spiritual center of the tribe -- they assist in the construction of new obik, as well as providing spiritual guidance, mechanical repairs, and coordinating leadership.  Doctors need to be good at everything, but they must be especially wise and have good enough motor control to assist in construction of obiks.

Smith:  A tribe is very lucky if they can build a smith.  Smiths have sophistiated enough motor control to sculpt new parts from scrap metal.  They also need to be very intellegent in order to figure out the workings of obik machinery.

Then, if a character is built appropriately, they can just say "I am a Hunter of the 3-Wheel tribe."  Or they can have Hunter as a Trait.  Either way.

Quote from: Ben LehmanI want them to be -- like the early humans -- omnivores and hunter-gatherers.

Quote from: gobi
I agree, see my revisions earlier in this post.

BL> I like the idea of them being able to scavenge batteries from ancient ruins, though...  Perhaps they get juice from a wide variety of sources, but solar is just not sufficient to power them?  (for more thoughts on Solar energy, see below.)

Quote from: gobi
Do mean this in the DBZ sense? With fiercely fetished warrior oniks screaming feedback howls as their fuses burst and gears spin madly under the strain of overjuicing? Could be interesting, but I wonder if there's another way to do it. I'd want some very clear things about what can be done and not done with juicing. I don't want it to overshadow rituals and fetishes.

BL>  Not necessarily DBZ levels of silly power-- just that some things are difficult and require extra effort.  The idea here is mainly to make juice supply even less of a sure thing.

How about this:  Every time you have a Complication, you lose 1 Juice?

Quote from: Ben LehmanI want a strong avatar and more simulationism, honestly

Quote from: gobi
How would you suggest this playstyle be implemented? Maybe this would help me better achieve my goals.

BL>  Again, this is more what I would do with the, rather than what you have said you want to do with the game.  I think of the Obiks and I would rather play their tough day-to-day struggle for survival than completely-over-the-top heroes.

Here is how I might start out character creation in such a system:

Name your tribe -- tribes are important, this comes first.

Choose how well-off your tribe is -- this shapes the sort of game you will play -- are you defending your utopia from barbarians or are you struggling to survive day-to-day?

Choose a Caste -- this has no system effect, but it informs the next three steps.

Choose a frame.  Light frames are faster (and drain less juice / day?), but heavier frames hold more juice and can have more peripherals.

Choose peripherals -- movement method, manipulators, sensors, battery, engines, other kewl powerz.  Peripherals either control basic stats like juice capacity (battery) and burn rate (engine) or give specific, incontravertible powers (legs mean you can walk, hands mean you can lift things, jump jets mean you can jump so far.)

Choose lore -- things that you know how to do.

Name yourself.


Also, a setting idea:

Black vs. Green Trees -- There are two types of trees in the world -- green trees and black trees.  Black trees are big columns with plates radiating out from them.  Don't tell the obiks, but these are also robots -- solar powered ones.  Over time, they have become increasingly settled, and now merely grow and reproduce themselves without movement.  This raises the cool idea of "treespeakers" who have the proper protocols to communicate with the black trees.

This is not entirely my idea -- it is somewhat lifted from "The Invincible -- " a very good book by Stanislaw Lem which you ought to read if you want to seriously develop this setting.  Honestly, all Lem is good to read.

caveat:  like with Ben, this is "what I'd do" and might be nothing like what you want, though I like what you want (mythic style robots):

I like Ben's Frame (light vs. heavy) idea, and I think that, without too much trouble, it can be expanded to other potential components (and perhaps "shinelinks" simply harvest mythical components from their dead onik ancestors?).  Components could include:

sensors
memory
recall
strength
reflexes
motor control
intelligence

Then, one could literally harvest these items off defeated oniks, or in the course of combat, damage them (probably a combinatino of both).  "Damage" could be applied against any of these.

Unlike Ben, though, I wouldn't have Smiths.  I'm kinda stuck on the idea of a circle of life, with factories being part of it.  They'd churn out the mechanical "animals" that are hunted for their parts (and their shine).  Scrap metal would eventually be carried away by some sort of Animal You Do Not Hunt, which would bring it to the factory for reprocessing.  Thus, you have a "circle" of life.  Which feels more mythic to me, so to speak.  Even if I did have Smiths, I'd keep the factories.

On the other hand, his green vs. black tree thing was really, really cool.

Plus you have sacred sites in the form of the factories, many of which are probably shared by numerous onik tribes in the same area.

On Scavenging

Some sort of solar power makes sense, even if it's tertiary.  Some sort of "they get 1 juice a day as long as they sit there and do NOTHING, and are hit by sunlight."  That's nice and small enough that players should be very happy when they come across a meal.  Either that or just never, ever use fetishes.

Beyond that, I like the idea of scavenging ancient batteries (or "places of power" where there's even capacitors).  That shouldn't be common though, more like the subject of some great quest.  "We need more juice, we're dying, rumor has it..." yadda yadda.

I think Ben's suggestion for building a tribe is a very good one, especially since these things are presumably all over the planet, and it seems silly to design only a few tribes for players to choose from.  If you haven't already (and maybe this is where Ben has gotten some inspiration?) you should read Ork World: generating the tribe, and the tribe's place in the world will really effect what kind of game you play.

I'm not sure how keen I am on defined parts (the Strength parts, the Movement parts, et cetera), given the resolution mechanic. I'd like to leave character traits completely in the realm of the myth/history.

I also can't see how day-to-day struggle would be nearly as interesting as being a tribe-hero would be... unless said daily struggle involved being a hero full-time. In which case the point's moot.