The Forge Archives

Hi all!

I just thought I'd post and offer to answer (or at least try!) any questions people might have about Gen Con So Cal.

The show will take place in the Anaheim Convention Center, just across from Disneyland, on Dec 11-14. We have over 90 exhibitors signed up, over 1000 gaming events, over 20 artists, and our special guests include William Shatner and Tracy Hickman. Okay, I'll stop there or this starts looking too much like an advertisement.

One thing that might be particularly interesting to discuss on this board is how we as convention organizers can better support smaller, independent games companies at Gen Con conventions--not just So Cal, but Indy too. (Oh my...I can hear it now, "We want indies at Indy!")

Anyway, just thought I'd post and emphasize my availability in case anyone had any questions, comments, or suggestions.

Hi Peter,

This is an excellent topic for this forum (I just posted a mean Sticky about that sort of thing).

The reason it's good is because it's about how to approach a given convention for maximum impact. To do this, we have to look at the convention in two ways.

1. The convention may include specific rules or opportunities that help small press publishers, which describes most of us here. (GenCon offers a reduced booth price for first-time publishers, for instance.)

2. It may include rules that don't do any such thing intentionally, but have loopholes that permit a certain kind of marketing or play experience. (That describes the Forge Booth multi-publisher tactic, which uses Exhibitor Badges essentially as booth buy-ins.)

So what's up with GenCon SoCal in this regard?

Here's one possible issue, although by no means the only one to discuss. The trouble with the Forge Booth tactic is that it's pretty hard on Adept Press cash flow for a limited time, and I can't afford two such "times" in a single fiscal year. Can anyone come up with a better model for such an effort?

Here's another: do registered and payment-requiring game demo sessions really accomplish anything of direct profit? I've found informal hallway or booth sessions to be far more effective in terms of sales. My standards for good sales, by the way, are measured in the dozens, not in ones and twos. A good day means forty or fifty books passed the register, not five or ten. Is a four-hour demo really good for a dozen clear and unequivocal sales?

Can anyone suggest a GenCon policy or activity that would allow more effective integration of play and sales?

Best,
Ron

Quotehow we as convention organizers can better support smaller, independent games companies at Gen Con conventions--not just So Cal, but Indy too

Well, one thing that immediately comes to my mind that distinguishes the independent game companies from other exhibitors, is that other exhibitors actually have a budget for booth and convention expenses which is expected to be written off as a promotional expense.

While Indies are often very profitable (potentially more actual $ in the owners pocket than a "big" company) they accomplish this by very aggressive cost control.  Indies are often profitable, but we lack the volume to absorb large fixed expenses.  

So the current means and expense of exhibiting at a booth at a big con like Gen Con is a much different proposition for an indy publisher...or at least it should be.  We've all seen the brand new booth sponsored by the brand new game company and staffed with eager game designers who sadly while away the con with little attention and little sales.  Maybe they linger on for a year or two before giving it up many thousands of dollars poorer with little to show for it.

That simply can't work for an indie publisher seeking to be profitable.  

I'm not suggesting that there should be a special discount rate for indie publishers or some such thing...I don't think I'd like it if there were as the implication is that we need handouts to be profitable.

But organizationally I'd like to see some convention level support and encouragement for booth shareing.  A revamped way for publishers to find adjacent booth space and a locator system to find other publishers wanting to share the space.  A centralized payment system so that the various participants sharing the booth all pay the convention directly for their share rather than the much riskier "1 guy pays the convention and hopes the other guys don't stiff him" method.

Friendly accessible and advertised open play areas are also a great help for the guerilla marketing tactics of the indie publisher.

So, really, I think the way to make a convention as big as GenCon more "indie friendly" is to first understand the significantly different business model we operate under and take that into account when making organizational, administrative, and structureal decisions.

As an example, while most exhibitors are at the con to sell, they are also there for exposure.  Most exhibitors rely on distributors to sell the bulk of their games.  For the typical indie publisher all of our sales come from us.  We don't have the name recognition and such of the big publishers, so by and large our booths aren't going to be "destination spots".

For instance at GenCon 2003, everone knew Mongoose was releasing d20 B5.  Everyone who wanted it, made a bee line to Mongoose and bought it.  By contrast at the Forge booth (which in its second year has become something of a destination itself) we actually had to actively work to get interest, and demo our games to make sales.

What this means is that a booth like the Forge is effected differently by "loud neighbors" than other booths.  Being positioned next to a PC game demoer with music and lasers blasting...or the travelling side show that was the Yu-Gi-Oh booth has a defineable negative impact on our ability to market our game.

Its hard to explain why My Life with Master isn't d20 with some guy doing card game stand-up for a bunch of kids two booths down.  I don't think this is as much of a concern for "destination" booths where people are going to go specifically to buy a certain product regardless of the area distractions.

So alot of the "indie friendly-ness" I think can be obtained at the organizational or structureal level in the way things are set up rather than any sort of discount or anything like that.

At other shows I've taken part in for non-gaming reasons, 1-2 person shops have exhibited in specialized areas sponsored by larger companies, so they end up paying subsidized costs. (e.g. the Developer Zone sponsored by Sony-Ericsson)

In those cases, the larger companies have usually acknowledged the likelihood that the smaller companies' products (e.g. ring tones) are helping sales of their own products (e.g. cell phones).

So what we need is a "small press games zone" sponsored by somebody like Mountain Dew. We can give out "dew20" stickers or something with the regular brochures and all that, and visitors can register to win 12 packs and those giant mugs and that sort of thing.

Does gaming help sell Mountain Dew? I bet we could make that case pretty easily.

Ralph makes some very interesting and salient points.

Understanding what indie game designers do at a con is key to helping us (help you):

We promote like mad. We hand out our own fliers and stickers to (dis)interested passerby. Why do I note this? Because while we are promoting, it is likely we are not selling. It's a one man show, so you can only do one thing at a time.

We need help promoting our presence and generating exposure.

Having a "promotions area" isn't the solution for this. Bigger companies will always out-strip us with flashier and more plentiful swag. Perhaps there could very well be an indie-rpg protected zone. Dedicated space for game designers to hang their hat and shuck their wares. Perhaps with a rental fee attached (and proof of your published game)? 4x4 Tables right in the exhibitor's hall, $100 a day. Set them all up in a corrall and see what happens.  But give them a place to play in view of every one else.

Also, Ralph points out the physics of promoting indie-rpgs. We require intimacy and a relatively sane surroundings. Video screens, sound systems and mics destroy us every time. I was just at an event where I was shouting over Grand Theft Auto for the whole day. It was nerve-wracking, distracting and tiring. And I really failed to make an impression in comparison to the mass murder taking place 4' from me. The Forge's location next to Earth and Beyond at GenCon was doubly nerve wracking.

Lastly, if one really wants to support indie-rpgs, one must realize that we don't have any money, we do this out of love, and we work very hard at it. Without Ron's generous offer to be a part of the Forge booth, I would not have made it to GenCon. If the costs can be mitigated in anyway for the attendance of indie-rpg designers, this would go a long way toward improving our presence there.

just a final note:
after a year of promoting BW here is what i look for when i go to a con:
a table to accomodate 4-6 people.
a relatively quiet room, talking is fine, music and video is not.
a location that gets some gamer traffic
time to use the space--generally 8-10 hrs.
and many places to advertise and promote (boards, walls, signs, etc)

thanks for asking!
-Luke

A dedicated demo room for indie games (maybe even an event in the program book that really amounts to "spend 3 (or 4, or 6)  hours here and demo 3 (or 4, or 6) small press games") would be ideal, except:

1)  You'd have to able to sell at this out-of-Exhibition-Hall location.  I understand this is a big issue for the convention organizers.

2)  The Exhibition Hall is where the action (traffic) is.  While demos and informative/sales-oriented conversation are better suited to another location, getting the real people to "fill the seats" means - by my understanding - being in the Hall.

Even if Peter/GenCon could come up with a solution to 1, 2 would still be an issue.  That is, if we had our own place more compatible with our goals, would anyone go there?  Maybe some sort of hybrid would work, at least as a test - if a booth refers people to another location with demos and details, do people actually go there?

I'd love to see more indie/small press games show up in the event listings of convention program books, but given the choice between doing that or actually SELLING, the indie guy probably has to sell.  In the Hall.  Even if the booth is in front of a loudspeaker blasting away at intentionally-attention-grabbing volume.

Gordon

Cool posts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! I don't have much yet in the way of definitive responses, but I've printed off the thread so far for my sales & marketing manager and we're going to go through it together here soon. But at this point, sorta mid-thread perhaps, I thought I'd respond to your posts about what it's like to be an indie publisher with some insight into what it's like to be a large-show convention organizer. The more we all understand about the indie business model and the Gen Con business model the higher the likelihood of coming up with ideas that work for everyone.

To put on a show like what Gen Con fans have grown to expect requires about a million bucks. Obviously we need to bring in a similar amount of revenues, or more if we want to make a profit (which of course we do). The revenues are split about 50/50 between exhibitors (booth space rental, advertising, sponsorships, and exhibitor badges) and attendees (badge sales, event tickets, merchandise, and hotel rebates). Each of these two customers has different, yet complementary goals. Attendees want to game, be entertained, have exposure to insiders and celebrities, and shop. Industry people want to make money (perhaps), gain marketing exposure, network, and generally keep up with what's happening. With attendees we are like a traditional event management company, running an event for them to enjoy. With businesses we are more like a combination of a marketing services company and an opportunity for direct-to-consumer retailing.

Because many of our business customers are competitors with each other (and this is hardly unique--those of you who are publishers and sell to multiple distributors or retailers have the same challenge) it's critical that our policies be fair and consistent from customer to customer. While it is possible to have different prices for different customers, those prices have to correspond to some policy or practice that is consistently applied and hopefully reinforces the behaviors you want.

And, naturally, we need to protect our revenue streams, which is why some of the policies are the way they are. Two policies in particular are a bit controversial and warrant some explanation. The first is that we don't allow publishers to demo their games for free except in the exhibit hall. There's one fairly well-known publisher who, every year, refuses to buy a booth yet runs around trying to avoid us and demo his games for free. We don't allow it because we're not getting event revenue from the people who play his games, and we're not getting booth revenue from him either. We don't mind free events in the exhibit hall because the exhibitors are essentially subsidizing those games by paying premium prices for that exhibit hall space.

The other somewhat controversial policy (in that people often ask why) is that most other conventions don't charge attendees to play games. The reason for the charge is basically that people don't tend to place much value a committment that they don't pay for. With so many distractions at Gen Con, there's a very high no-show rate at gaming events. We've discovered (more accurately, earlier Gen Con managers discovered) that this is significantly mitigated by asking gamers to pay a nominal fee ($0.75/hour at the low end) to play in a game. And gaming event fees are further used to motivate gaming organizers to come and run events in that organizers can charge more than this and keep the delta.

So to bring this to some sort of point, in exploring ideas of things Gen Con can do to help independent publishers, I need ideas for policies, promotions, whatever that I can apply consistently.  A policy like "give independent publishers a price break" isn't very good because then I have to explain to my bigger customers why the smaller companies are getting an advantage, when in fact, it generally works the other way around (volume discounts are the norm in business). On the other hand, a policy like "have an area where companies can purchase a 4'x4' table" instead of having a 10' x 10' booth being the minimum might work since, if WizKids really wanted to, they could buy a 4'x4' table. Hmm...perhaps this area could have a centralized cash register system so that small companies don't have to bother with credit card machines and such...sorta like how we run the art show (we sell space, much cheaper than exh hall, plus take 10% of sales).

Consistency of policies is more important than actual money (within reason). I make my real money from the big exhibitors, especially the ones willing to purchase sponsorships (pay me to hang their logo everywhere--that's great $!). But I really want you guys at our shows. It adds a dimension of authenticity, and a lot of our attendees come looking for the products they don't get to buy easily at their local retail shop.

So what we need to help independent publishers are policies that can be evenly applied, but really benefit small companies.

This past GenCon was my twentysecond.  I was running a club-based track of games (If you saw LEGO, it was probably us) with six GMs.  I'm an educated con consumer.  And The Forge was my treasured find for the con this year.

When I was eleven, hiking out the the Gym at Parkside to see the unairconditioned dealer room was really the highlight of the fair.  I spent hours in the sweltering heat.  This year it took me hours to find anything of interest (Ron Edwards, as it turned out).  The dealers room is _way_ less appealing than it once was and it's not just a changing me.  It's too loud, too crowded, and oddly, too commercial.  (I know, I know...that's the point; but it was always the point before, too.)  I think that the con as a whole, and small/indie companies in particular would benefit by adjusting the whole dealer room experience to make it quieter and less hectic.  I love computer and console games, but they need their own corner...or at least a noise ordinance

Jay Tummelson, of Rio Grande Games (for whom I have demoed at four Gen Con's), is given demo space in the board game area and hooks up with a single dealer to make sure that his games are available in quantity.  I don't know the specifics of their finances, but he spends all his time demoing (and I don't just mean the restricted hours of the dealer room) and someone else handles selling his stuff.  It must work, it's been happening for years.  Why couldn't Forgies do that?

If you ran shifts where someone with basic knowledge of the Forge wares and as many cashiers as were warranted (one?) were on duty in the dealers' room, while everyone else were demoing in a set-aside area, particularly if it were a high-traffic area (tables on the edge of the hall?), I bet the results would be positive.  How would this translate to all other small-press companies?  I guess if there were too many, it would break down.  Are there?

Also, What if the convention sponsored a give-away or something where attendees got a passport stamped for every different system that they demoed from a vendor?  And the folks with the most are rewarded or entered in a drawing or something.  (Has this been done?  It seems like I'm stealing the idea - maybe from an obnoxious WoTC card game promotion last year or two with an announcer (again, too loud) and a wheel of fortune kind of thing?)  It would be something that the con could offer the dealers that would encourage people to play demos and simultaneously be something that the con would be offering the attendees that would be kind of fun.

Chris

Hello,

Peter, thanks! That kind of breakdown and mutual knowledge is key, and I hope people recognize the importance of communicating about this stuff with the owner of GenCon.

I'd like to throw in my support for Peter's point: the last thing I at least am interested in is any kind of break for being an independent publisher. The entrepeneurial discount, for instance, is available to any first-time exhibitor with a single game, independent or not. I like it that way.

What I'm looking for are best described as opportunities that are exploitable. By "exploitable," I don't mean "to the detriment of non-independent publishers," but rather, "spot on for independent ones or for anyone else who practices the same strategies."

Here's an idea: bite-size demo tables set up around and about the exhibition hall. Any exhibitor can make use of them on a sign-up basis, and they don't cost a thing. No exhibitor can make use of more than one of them, for one session, per day. You run a game for a short period and hand out some promo, then head back to your booth.

This is useful for anyone, if their marketing strategy promotes play as part of the sales process. Everyone gets a shot. But it's especially handy for people who fall into the category that Ralph described so well above.

Are there identifiable potential problems? Sure! What if every exhibitor wants a slot and there aren't enough? What if exhibitor X cheats and sneaks in on other exhibitors' slots with the other guys' collusion? What if, what if, what if?  So, we enter into some dialogue about it and see whether some of these can be headed off with good policy design. If not, we try another idea.

Best,
Ron

QuoteSo to bring this to some sort of point, in exploring ideas of things Gen Con can do to help independent publishers, I need ideas for policies, promotions, whatever that I can apply consistently. A policy like "give independent publishers a price break" isn't very good because then I have to explain to my bigger customers why the smaller companies are getting an advantage,

Exactly, and truth be told I really wouldn't want one.  Its hard enough to gain cred as an indie publisher without others haveing the ammo that the only reason we could survive at GenCon is cause we're getting a hand out.

QuoteOn the other hand, a policy like "have an area where companies can purchase a 4'x4' table" instead of having a 10' x 10' booth being the minimum might work since, if WizKids really wanted to, they could buy a 4'x4' table. Hmm...perhaps this area could have a centralized cash register system so that small companies don't have to bother with credit card machines and such...sorta like how we run the art show (we sell space, much cheaper than exh hall, plus take 10% of sales).

There's some merit to this idea.  A quiet official place to demo would attract attention, and taking credit cards is always a difficult proposition.  I look forward to seeing this idea put into a more formalized format after you've ascertained what would be required to make it economically feasible to you.  At that point we'd be able to judge how worthwhile it looks from our perspective.

Oh, and thanks for stopping by.  Your consideration for us as publishers is greatly appreciated.

Chris, I like a some of your ideas a lot. That passport idea would be a much better idea than the freebies that people get for solving the puzzles all over the con, IMO. Same effect, more company exposure. I can't see how any company wouldn't want to be in on that, no matter how big.

Jay (Rio Grande) I believe just reserves a jillion slots. The con then nicely puts them all together in one spot, and they theoretically run them on the normal schedule. In reality he just grabs you as you go by and asks for generics. Anyhow, if we had enough games (and we do) we could put that many slots together, I'm sure. In which case the nice GenCon man might give us a room? :-)  OTOH, we've discussed the idea before, and there are other potential problems.

As far as Ron's idea, the problem I see is space. That is, the space costs GenCon in terms of opportunity cost. If they only set a aside a very little excess space in the Exhibitor Hall, then you have your scheduling problems moreso. If they use another space, well, then we might as well be running demos per the Rio Grande model above.

I do like Peter's idea of the little tables. I'm seeing an "Indie Market" sort of place (gotta love the idea of a bazar atmosphere). OTOH, assuming you can't merge booths, then we loose our co-op advantages. Which is problematic. I'd also assume that they'd cost more per square foot?

Mike

Quote from: Mike HolmesJay (Rio Grande) I believe just reserves a jillion slots. The con then nicely puts them all together in one spot, and they theoretically run them on the normal schedule. In reality he just grabs you as you go by and asks for generics.

That's not so.  There are a host of RGG's titles run by GB7 as ticketed events, but the stuff that Jay (and his little helpers (of which there were none, this past year...sorry Jay!)) just pulls you into as a demo are non-ticketed events.  I'm not sure if he negotiates for a section of GB7 space these days and avoids dealing with the con, or what, but it is clearly good for the convention to have him doing that.  There were other companies (Ad Astra, at least) doing free demos in there this year too.

And I agree that it's exciting to see Peter pinging The Forge about this.

Chris

First off, thanks to Peter for his excellent enthusiasm and explanations regarding his business.

I want to give his comments and other ideas posted here some thought, but I definitely wanted to chime in with a perhaps-too-obvious point.

I'm deeply concerned about any solution that would put indie publishers in disparate locations. I could foresee small tables dotting the landscape. I see this as, unintentionally, divide and conquer.

From my perspective, the success of the Forge booth is the result of a critical mass of 1) staff 2) games 3) social energy level and excitement about indie viability. Not only were we selling because we had others helping us with "man-hours" in customer service and practical matters. We were selling well because we had a social verve unparalleled in any other small or moderate publisher's booth on its own. I argue strongly that we must have a common geography on the convention floor.

I realize this is probably very obvious, but I thought it was worth mentioning so that Peter might consider it. Thanks!

Speaking not as an independent roleplaying game publisher but as a player and purchaser of independent roleplaying games, I am rather fond of Peter's notion of a separate "indie room", run like the art show... a lower cost for vendors, showcased with other independents, and much more visible overall, at least in my mind, than individual or group booths hidden amongst the morass that is the Exhibit Hall.

Quote from: PeterAdkisonCool posts. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
A policy like "give independent publishers a price break" isn't very good because then I have to explain to my bigger customers why the smaller companies are getting an advantage, when in fact, it generally works the other way around (volume discounts are the norm in business). On the other hand, a policy like "have an area where companies can purchase a 4'x4' table" instead of having a 10' x 10' booth being the minimum might work since, if WizKids really wanted to, they could buy a 4'x4' table. Hmm...perhaps this area could have a centralized cash register system so that small companies don't have to bother with credit card machines and such...sorta like how we run the art show (we sell space, much cheaper than exh hall, plus take 10% of sales).

peter, since you seemed to like this idea, let's expand on it a bit.

A corrall of 4x4 tables set aside in the exhibitor's hall. Perhaps one booth-block's worth? Centralized register system run by GenCon. That's cool. A small take on sales is reasonable, so long as the set up fee is relatively low.

Toward the back of the hall this year, i noticed that there seemed to be a bit of dead space. Broader avenues and some open round tables for folks to sit at. I'll bet with a little arranging, something like the 4x4 table corrall could be squeezed in.

My one concern, where i break with most everyone else here, is that it should be a protected zone. Wizkids and Mongoose and WoTC shouldn't be allowed in. Not that I want to create prejudice or divide, but in "free market competition" we can't compete. We can't front the money or resources necessary to edge out Wizkids. Because a it isn't really a "free market." The buy-in is thousands of dollars. And a company like that can afford a booth. Individual game designers, generally, cannot. Having a cheaper, smaller option for said indies provides them the opportunity to participate without going broke. $100-$200 is relatively equivalent in our budgets as $10k is for WoTC.

Besides, the relative merits of having a booth quite possibly justify its cost for a larger company—better location, more space, no cut of the proceedings.  Small press publishers get special consideration and a nod of approval from the big guys.

And though we compete, WoTC and we indies are also mutually supportive. We encourage kids to roleplay and buy games -- we provide a very personable and intimate experience. A wholly different experience than the celebrity flash one recieves from the WoTC booth.  Both experiences are valid, and i'll bet kids would partake of both. (In fact, I know kids that definitely shoot for both when they go to GenCon.)

Look, I'm not asking for handouts either. But I am talking about the reality of being an indie game designer/publisher. Nearly every game in this industry has started with people like us -- a crazy dream, some badly printed copies, little money and a lot of energy. Supporting, fostering, glorifying and helping that role is not a bad thing, in my opinion.

all in all, just a suggestion
-Luke