The Forge Archives

Tim, just not really in the scope of the project, and also I suspect that some wouldn't want to include a bio. So just to keep it all nice and even, just comments about the game that I can provide even if the author doesn't want to say anything, and the links.

Of course there will be URLs to the posts here with the original games as well.

Mike

Someone needs to poke me outside this thread to remind me to re-edit my entry before sending it to Mike.

Also, reserve me a half-page for an ad. I think I need to advertise Unsung somewhere.

You can put me down for "definitely yes."

I'm a yes for Dance & Dawn (which I might rename "Midnight Waltz", perhaps?). Dav, what's the deadline scheduling looking like? (I still want playtest / more comments / etc).

What I'd like to see from each contributor, as soon as possible, is a note on where they are with editing. Have you done anything with the text of the game? If not, fine, let me know. If you have done work, let me know where it's at. If you have a draft finished, let me know where I can find it, or mail it to me (PM me to get the address).

My intent is to make comment on each and every game within a couple of days and get the contributors back to editing if neccessary. I'll work with each of you, back and forth until we have what we want to publish.

At that point, we'll be sending them on to Jonathan for technical editing (spelling, grammar, etc). When he'd done, they go on to Dav for layout.

Is that clear? The "deadline" is yesterday for letting me know where you're at. When I respond, then I'll let you know further deadlines individually.

Mike

Where I'm at:

The most updated versions of all three of my games are in my Atheneum, which is pretty much my rpg Half-Bakery (to steal a pun from numerous sources):

http://www.twistedconfessions.com/atheneum.php

I've renamed Dawnstorm to "Albraxas", but otherwise, what you see is what you get.  What's up there is mainly just a cleaning up of terms and the like, but both Frigid Bitch and Dawnstorm have at least minor changes as, well, I typed them all up again basically from scratch to get them up there, and while I was doing that, I tinkered.

As you know, Mike, there's a Frigid Bitch playtest tonight in the indie-netgaming channel, after which there will probably be another critical look at the rules.  The other two are "as is" for the moment, and still very much in "raw form."

Let's keep the updates to PMs, please.

Alex, thanks for the update. I'll be at the game tonight.

Mike

So, I just discovered this thread and my intial reaction is confused and rather negative.  Here are my issues:

1. I don't want people to pay for a copy of my game.  I want it to be free for everyone.  I've already posted it in my RPGnet column, actually.  Honestly, I don't think it's good enough to deserve being printed, even as part of an anthology of other rough games.

2. So, if my games aren't in the "Iron Game Chef Anthology," that would seem, in some ways, to invalidate my participation in the Iron Game Chef competition, especially if I'm the only one who doesn't want their games included.  It would also seem to invalidate the title "Iron Game Chef Anthology" (or whatever) because it wouldn't include all the games that participated in the competition.

3. In effect, I feel trapped by the whole concept.  I feel bad for not wanting my game included, both because of peer pressure, because everyone else seems excited about it, and because it feels like I'm retracting my game for being printed alongside the games it was created next to.

4. Honestly, the way you guys seem to be going about organizing this thing seems bassackwards and presumptive.  Instead of putting forth the idea, seeing if people were interested, and going from there, you've basically decided you're going to publish all the Iron Chef games and then, after the fact, thought to ask us what we think about it.  Dav's whole attitude of "this is going to happen, whether you like it or not" is a complete turn-off.  No thank you.  I don't think I want to be involved in something that's going to show that little concern for what I want to do with my own work.

Quote from: Mike HolmesFor those who don't like the idea of the fact that Dav is going to have his logo on the product, I suggest that you publish on your own. Dav is putting up the money, and considerable other resources to make this possible, and I think that a logo is a small price to pay to get this product out.

Um, no.  I respectfully disagree.  I'd much rather contribute my own money to help pay for the project than let Dav pay for it and get his logo on the cover.  Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that's an option.  For a work that's so obviously collaborative to be published under the "imprint" of one of the contributors, just because they were the first person to volunteer funds, is a shame.

So, I guess this is the first "I'll take my ball and go home" post, and I'm sorry about that, but if you guys don't want to play nicely, you can leave me out of it.

Jonathan, although I can see the merit in some of your points, let me make a few small points:

1.  Who says your game doesn't still get to be free for everyone?  I'm sure as hell not taking my IGC games down from my website, even if I put them in this compilation.  It's not an either/or choice, and I don't mind a few people shelling out the money to see the results of the contest, since mainly they're paying for the privilege of having the book printed and compiled and edited, rather than for the games per se.

Heck, to divert attention a bit to the other anthology, Snowball is showing up in the NPA, sold for good money, but I'm not going to stop making it free from my site either.  Nobody's asked you to make your game not-free, just to print your game in a book that will be for sale.

2.  I wouldn't say that removing your games from the Anthology would invalidate your participation in the contest.  A partial listing would make note of that fact, and it would definitely (in my opinion) point anyone and everyone to the thread itself, where your game will still be.

I also don't think the title is invalidated by only having some entries, any more than, say, an anthology of "Fairy Tales" is invalidated by not having a Hansel and Gretel tale, despite it being a fairy tale.  So, in short, there's not much invalidation going on here.

3.  I'm really sorry you feel trapped.  There's not much more I can say about that, other than "I don't want to see you feeling trapped, and if the only way not to feel trapped is to not publish, well, don't."  Although personally, I'll miss seeing Seadog Tuxedo in print form.

4.  Um, I suppose yeah, they did things sort of backwards, first deciding to compile and then going ahead with it.  I think that's enthusiasm rather than lack of thought.  They are specifically asking for everyone's participation individually (Dav's first post is "this will happen - if the authors don't mind" and I really think that's the attitude that's continued from there).  Sure, Dav is aggressively pushing for answers, but that's just 'cause if he wants a GenCon release, he's on a tight schedule and, well, sorta has to keep people on their toes.

The numbers they're saying are expected and/or are hoped for (20-25) is a significant chunk smaller than the 35 games that could be submitted (since Dav's 2nd game has already been excluded).  Sure, they're putting some emphasis on wanting the winners and runners-up, but that's only because those are sort of the 'face' of the competition.  Certainly the "upper crust", insofar as they were the highest rated.  

Even so, it's obvious they ARE expecting some "no" answers.  Whether or not they were expecting your 'no' is up to them, but they're prepared for it.

---

Finally, for whatever reason I was thinking that Dav, like most book publishers, would have his logo on the back or spine, not on the cover.  But (a) I might be wrong, and (b) you might be defining cover as "both front and back" in which case, yeah, that's the cover.

That said, obviously Dav having his logo on the book bothers you more than it does me.  It hasn't even really concerned me, apart from my saying "you know, maybe the No Press logo might make sense, isn't that effectively an open source logo?"  (Which, apparently, turns out I was wrong about)  I am, however, assuming that I'm going to be able to hawk my game company in the interior of the book, at least in the "author's blurbs" preceeding my game(s).

Thanks for your reply, Lxndr.  Let me see if I can clarify my motivations:

Quote from: Lxndr1.  Who says your game doesn't still get to be free for everyone?

This isn't really the issue, but my first post was vague.  It's not that "I don't want people to have to pay money for this game" (I realize that it could still be free), it's that "I don't want to sell this particular game, as it stands."  If Seadog was going to be published and sold, I would want to do some pretty drastic things to it, and that's against the spirit of this anthology, I think.

Your second point is well taken.  Nevermind on both those issues.

Quote3.  I'm really sorry you feel trapped.  There's not much more I can say about that, other than "I don't want to see you feeling trapped, and if the only way not to feel trapped is to not publish, well, don't."

That's exactly it.  I don't want to feel dragged into this, and I do, so it seems like the only good choice is to not be involved.

Quote4.  Um, I suppose yeah, they did things sort of backwards, first deciding to compile and then going ahead with it.  I think that's enthusiasm rather than lack of thought.

I suppose, but it seems more like enthusiasm is getting in the way of thinking things through, and that's what bothers me.

QuoteFinally, for whatever reason I was thinking that Dav, like most book publishers, would have his logo on the back or spine, not on the cover.  But (a) I might be wrong, and (b) you might be defining cover as "both front and back" in which case, yeah, that's the cover.

This just doesn't seem like a collaborative project among indie designers.  It seems like Dav licensing the printing rights for our games and publishing them under his imprint.  Nothing wrong with that, of course, but I would be much more comfortable with the former (but it would take much more time to organize and wouldn't be ready for GenCon).

Basically, I understand that Mike and Dav have reasons for doing things the way they did.  I just regret that they conducted this in a way that alienates me from being a part of it.

John (Walton):

If you don't want your game in, that's fine.  I'm not going to force you.  As for feeling trapped, there's not much I can do about that, that's your call to make.

I think one of the big problems with collaborating *anything* is that everyone will want to have a vision of the finished product.  I'm trying to do something that in no way precludes someone from taking their own stuff and doing it their way.  I see this more as giving anyone who wants it a chance to spotlight their stuff in a published form... end of story.  I want people to shamelessly point to other works and say: "this is what I did in about a week (some cases less), imagine what I do without the deadline... better yet, don't imagine, because it's right here."

There are plenty of people that have their own views about "image" or "professionalism"... personally, I don't buy it, and I don't care, so that has never been an issue for me.  I mentioned this idea to Mike a bit ago, we talked about it, and decided that it had merit, and thus, we moved to the next step: announcing the idea and seeking support.  

While I feel that people such as Designer X, who just said: "yeah, sure, have a blast, sounds fun and make sure it stays 'Designer X'," have the right idea, I don't see any reason to pressure people into this.  You may not like my attitude, which is fine, there are a good number of people who think I'm an ass... and I may well be.  I just think that anyone that feels pigeonholed, pressured, or what-have-you is putting far too much thought into this... or at least more than I am.  This is just a simple, fun thing, and I really don't want it to turn into some bizarre NDA-required, contract-signed nightmare.

As for licensing: no.  I don't want your license, I don't want anything.  I want no responsibility for your works, I just want to put them in a single form and print it.

When you say: "I don't think I want to be involved in something that's going to show that little concern for what I want to do with my own work," I become confused.  I honestly DON'T care what you want for your work, it isn't my work, it's yours.  I expect that the average creator should care enough for themselves, without my need for involvement.  What I want to see is more people getting their names, games, and ideas out to the public, and I see this as a no-risk, easily accomplished avenue... and I want to make it available to anyone that wants it.

And, as for the UD logo going on the back of the anthology, it was a request of mine for pushing my resources at the project.  I also want to include a Forge logo and an IGC logo.  I will also happily include anyone else's logo in the author's section for each game, as well as having openly stated that I am offering free ad space at the end of the product (and, incidentally at the end of the UDMMIV publication).  I feel that is more than fair, and if you disagree, well, boys will be boys.  

Your game will still be included in the full list of games submitted, as will all other games not participating, so you needn't feel excluded.  If you have an alternate venue for distributing your game and you feel that this project will in some manner detract from it, by all means, you should do it your own way.

I do have enthusiasm for this project, and I hate it when people insist on "thinking/planning/whatevering things out".  If there is one thing I have learned: too much thought stifles creativity (yeah, I know, seems counterintuitive, doesn't it?), and I refuse to have this project tied up in committee while people discuss every nuance they can get their hands on.  I just don't work that way.  (Hey, I'm making concenssions as it is, this will be one of the first products that I am involved with that doesn't have the line: "hey kids, smoking makes you cool." in the foreword.

Dav

Edited to note that I cross-posted with Dav.

Quote from: Jonathan Walton1. I don't want people to pay for a copy of my game.  I want it to be free for everyone.  I've already posted it in my RPGnet column, actually.  

Then don't publish with us. Or publish with us, and in any other way that you like including giving it away for free. Publishing with us does't prevent you from doing anything that you like with your game.

QuoteHonestly, I don't think it's good enough to deserve being printed, even as part of an anthology of other rough games.

You're wrong. We'll be charging roughly fifty cents for your game, which the paper alone is close to worth. Certainly with the effort to print it, it's worthwhile. In any case it's worth more than some of the other games that are going into the publication. I would love to see your game in, but it's entirely your call.

QuoteSo, if my games aren't in the "Iron Game Chef Anthology," that would seem, in some ways, to invalidate my participation in the Iron Game Chef competition, especially if I'm the only one who doesn't want their games included.  It would also seem to invalidate the title "Iron Game Chef Anthology" (or whatever) because it wouldn't include all the games that participated in the competition.

Poppycock. As I've said, I expect only to have some of the games in the publication - I would have been astonished if everyone had decided to participate (my original estimate was 20 games out of 35). If you choose not to publish, you will not be the only one (others have already turned us down). If you're game isn't in it, I'll miss it, but it won't slow us down one iota.

And how does it invalidate your participation? Nobody is in any way being required to participate in the publication. It's entirely optional. Just an opportunity to get your name in print if you want to do so.

QuoteIn effect, I feel trapped by the whole concept.  I feel bad for not wanting my game included, both because of peer pressure, because everyone else seems excited about it, and because it feels like I'm retracting my game for being printed alongside the games it was created next to.

Can't help you there except to say that you shouldn't feel that way. Yes, I'd like it in. If you don't want to publish with us, I'll still respect you in the morning.

QuoteHonestly, the way you guys seem to be going about organizing this thing seems bassackwards and presumptive.  Instead of putting forth the idea, seeing if people were interested, and going from there, you've basically decided you're going to publish all the Iron Chef games and then, after the fact, thought to ask us what we think about it.  Dav's whole attitude of "this is going to happen, whether you like it or not" is a complete turn-off.  No thank you.  I don't think I want to be involved in something that's going to show that little concern for what I want to do with my own work.

This is entirely your own perception. If nobody wanted to publish with us, then we wouldn't publish. Basically the post here was asking if anybody was interested (we were pretty sure that some people would want to, but we had to ask given that it's all copywrited in their names). Many of the people here are enthusiastic about publishing in this manner. So we shouldn't publish their games because it makes you feel bad?

Don't feel bad.

QuoteUm, no.  I respectfully disagree.  I'd much rather contribute my own money to help pay for the project than let Dav pay for it and get his logo on the cover.  Unfortunately, it doesn't look like that's an option.  For a work that's so obviously collaborative to be published under the "imprint" of one of the contributors, just because they were the first person to volunteer funds, is a shame.

So, I guess this is the first "I'll take my ball and go home" post, and I'm sorry about that, but if you guys don't want to play nicely, you can leave me out of it.

OK. I'm sad that you feel bad about it, because I don't see any reason for you to feel that way. I have no hard feelings about you not publishing, so I'm not sure why you are having them. If you don't want to publish with us for any reason, all you had to say was "no." I completely respect that.

If you don't publish with us, I will say again as I've said in the past, that I'd like to see your games published in some form at some time. So, good luck with that.

Mike

Jon, what do you mean by "free for everyone"? Were you planning on putting it in the public domain, or something more limited?

Quote"I don't want to sell this particular game, as it stands." If Seadog was going to be published and sold, I would want to do some pretty drastic things to it, and that's against the spirit of this anthology, I think.

For what little it may be worth, Terminator Line doesn't deserve to be published & sold in its IGC-submitted form either, and will wind up in this volume with significant revisions.

Quote from: JamesSterrettFor what little it may be worth, Terminator Line doesn't deserve to be published & sold in its IGC-submitted form either, and will wind up in this volume with significant revisions.

Yes... I'll note that revisions are allowed, so long as the game doesn't go beyond about 150% of its original length. I know I revised my game quite a bit in reaction to Mike's comments.