The Forge Archives

I'm about to start running an Underground game (hopefully this weekend, but more likely in about a month).

Has anyone here played this game?

I've tried once before and it didn't really work.

The books are great to read (although poorly edited) and the core book really stands out as one of the funniest gamebooks I've ever read. I always have trouble handling contemporary or near-contemporary settings  for several reasons and this has kept me from diving into this rather unpopular RPG.

I'd love to hear other experiences related to playing (or even reading) Underground.

Greets.

Hi Sebastian!

Nice to see you.

Have you read the comic from the late 1980s called Marshal Law? It was published by Epic Comics, created by Pat Mills and Kevin O'Neill.

The first six-issue story ranks as one of the finest superhero stories I have ever read. (Contrary to some folks' perceptions, I don't think it's an "anti-hero" story at all, nor even an "anti-superhero" story.) I'm not too fond of the later stories.

As far as I can tell, Underground is an attempt to move Marshal Law into a role-playing game. It might be worthwhile to check out the comic to see what the authors are doing with the whole idea of "homeless superheroes."

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsHi Sebastian!

Nice to see you.

Have you read the comic from the late 1980s called Marshal Law? It was published by Epic Comics, created by Pat Mills and Kevin O'Neill.

The first six-issue story ranks as one of the finest superhero stories I have ever read. (Contrary to some folks' perceptions, I don't think it's an "anti-hero" story at all, nor even an "anti-superhero" story.) I'm not too fond of the later stories.

As far as I can tell, Underground is an attempt to move Marshal Law into a role-playing game. It might be worthwhile to check out the comic to see what the authors are doing with the whole idea of "homeless superheroes."

Best,
Ron

I concur. ML is the best...I wrote a paper on it back in school.

What's really, really odd is that Senor Winninger doesn't even mention ML in the credits page. He mentions other sources...but not ML itself.

Weird.

I would love to re-do Underground and make it playable...

- J (my copy has its cover signed by Geoff Darrow. Hah!)

I've never actually seen either of these games so I hope this post isn't absolutely useless, but how does it relate to GMS's Underworld?  Can atmosphere, adventure seeds, GM tips and such be drawn from that game to help run an Underground game?  There is probably a lot more actual play info from Underworld so if the games are remotely compatible, subject wise, you might be able to learn something useful from those sessions.

Pete

Hi Peter,

I applaud your enthusiasm, but as it turns out, we're talking about very different games. UnderWorld is mainly inspired by material like Neil Gaiman's Neverworld, or the TV show Beauty and the Beast, in that you have kind of a fantasyland in the sewers that stretches all the way into myth and legend. Underground is a harsh street-level setting in which gimpy cyborgs and war-traumatized superheroes beg passersby for small change.

Jared, what are Underground's flaws as a game design (relative to your desires in play)?

Best,
Ron

Quote from: Ron EdwardsJared, what are Underground's flaws as a game design (relative to your desires in play)?

Underground is all about the color in the game. The in-jokes, pop culture references and the whole set-up. It's all very good. But the game itself isn't.

The fact that you can make a character that is unplayable is a problem -- at the end of chargen you might find out that your character has gone insane and can't be used as a PC.

The game is centered around the "PCs are members of a secret group" yaddah yaddah that just serves to limit their in-game actions. The whole "fight to change the world" thing seems tacked on like in the various Cyberpunk games out there (superpunk?).

The game is pretty self-serving as far as the PCs go -- the characters are homeless superhero vets...fighting to change the world to make it better for *them*.  And the game sets it up so that the PCs can possibly win (or rather, that's a viable goal) even as the game slams home the idea that the world is a corrupt, evil, nasty, fucked-up place that doesn't deserve saving -- it's like Judge Dredd in that way...it's written as a satire but mis-interpreted.

And the game system is very, very concerned with accurately protraying superhero powers and combat. Which is just ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. I just think it needs a re-design.

- J

I'll second a number of Jared's observations.  Underground was the first RPG, to my knowledge, to directly connect the various "super powers" to various insanities.  A concept White Wolf included in Aberrant with their "taint" rules.

I've always thought Underground lives up to the theme inplicit in its title - rebellion from the 'underground' up.  

I ran an Underground campaign {and with the approach of Green Ronin's Mutants & Masterminds may just do it again} where all the players thought they were going to be playing a "traditional" super-hero RPG.  After 6 months {real time}, I had them all wake up in supe-tanks.  Technicians dragged them forth, causually telling them their 'remembered' lives were a lie. Then they had to go to a jungle hell hole and kill people for the corporation that "built" them.

To me, that's what Underground is truly about - 4 color superheroes being dropped into a shades of grey world.

Thanks for the comments, after searching on Google I started wondering whether anyone had in fact played the darn game.

I heard about Marshal Law just recently (in connection with Underground). I DO have Hard Boiled which has the same "atmosphere" as the game but isn't exactly about the same thing (Frank Miller does get some credit in at least one of the books and Geoff Darrow has -awesome- illustrations ina few as well).

I can imagine myself having everyone create their characters, and then basically going "what now?". I can smell it's a "hard-to-play" game, in all the bad ways.

I'm going to try a few things I hope will get the game into better shape:

1) Bypass the random stuff in the chargen. I'm not very fond of random charge in the first place, and for Underground it's so long that a bad roll could REALLY cause serious frustration (unlike D&D where you start by rolling and just re-roll until you get it right :-) ).

2) Stress their Slumberland memories (superhero memories) as dramatic elements. I had in fact once thought of running a campaign such as TSL describes, but I think I'll rather cut to the chase and periodically re-visit their 4-color pasts (maybe even splitting sessions in flashback/present-day halves and try to emphasize the moral contrast).

3) Revamp (a little) the codes and traits tying them in deeper with the mechanics (perhaps having effects on Stress and Tolerance). I hope this makes them more central and important to the characters. I also plan on making Karma points a more dynamic force than what seems to be implied in the rules. I'm hoping for about 3 to 5 Karma points expended per player, per session, as an average. I'll probably tie that into the Codes & Traits deal also.

4) Since we (the players) aren't located in the US and I'm the only who has ever lived there (and only until I was 10), we already have a rather acid view of US culture. I'm not sure if this will enhance or hurt the satire of it all. It's definately something I'm going to have to keep an eye on. Somthing similar happens with the anachronism of the game... I'm not sure if it's a good idea to "update" some historical events. Probably better to just suppose the world as we know it forked off into Underground-land circa 1980-something.

My main concern is effectively placing the character's moral issues in central place. I might eventually equate to rising the Premise of "In a diametrically different world, can you still be the same person?" or ".. is it worth/does it make sense to be the same person?". Person in the moral sense.

Regarding setting, it kinda feels like the books go a little too far. I think I'll try to concentrate on having the characters feel like "superheroes in a world that doesn't want superheroes". Tha hard part might be not making it to bleak or hopeless.

Even if the game breaks (and I think it has quite a chance of doing so), if enough stuff feels like it kinda works, I might try a complete makeover starting from the stuff that worked.

I'll let you all know how it turns out.

Hi Sebastian,

As far as an acid view toward the U.S. is concerned, it will be hard to out-do the British creators of Marshal Law. To say the least, the story is uncompromisingly critical of U.S. policies and self-image, especially in the height of the 1980s Reagan-Thatcher era, when it was written. I'd suggest permitting your acidity to express itself in no uncertain terms during play, as it will mesh well with the subject matter.

Best,
Ron

I ran and played Underground (having removed Cannibalism elements)--it was quite fun to watch the erswthile heroes including "Chainsaw Joe" whose brother was nicknamed "Screams-like-a-girl" by their street tribe friends--as they hunted for the insane criminal/psychopath White Spider.


Me I was rather fond of the system, the Karma system was an elegant and worthwhile thing of balancing factors of /society/ to improve not the character--but his "world"

Underground really was the best damned game that nobody played. I only ever ran a short con game in which the garbage was just piling up in the vets' neighborhood in high summer.

Marshal Law was a fine thing, but doesn't directly relate to Underground in my opinion. Underground, to my mind, was in spirit about the fallout of the Vietnam War, and about the erosion of American founding principles through commercialism and capitalism.

Seen in that way, an "acid" view of America generally is pretty much essential.

Though the game is certainly dark, it need not be hopeless. There are mechanics for effecting change in the game world, and in an America where a vote counts for nothing, it's an appealing thought that you can solve problems by capping the right person.

Don Lag, I think your idea of being a superhero in a world that doesn't want superheroes, and dealing with the conflict between your heroic self-image and your mentally impaired, downtrodden war-vet reality, is the way to go with this game.

Dave

Quick question: judging by the description some have made of the game, does it bear any resemblance to The Maxx? Homeless guy/superhero, insanity and shifting reality, Slumberland (The Outback?). Sounds cool to me. I haven't had the opportunity to read any Marshal Law, but I'm told it's good.

-- Ben

I haven't actually read The Maxx, just seen a few episodes of the TV Series way back when.

From what I remeber though, The Maxx was rather surreal. The Underground isn't really.

Also, in Underground the characters aren't "really" superheroes. They have superhero-like powers, but they're vets that have come back from a pretty violent war. As part of the process of making them into superpowered soldiers is that they live an artificial life (in a VR thingie called Slumberland) in which they become superheroes ala DC/Marvel. They have kids, wives and a succesful career as superheroes in this artificial experience. Suddenly, they're taken out of this "dream" and thrown into war. After war, they come back to a somewhat anarchic society that is ripe with capitalist abuse, streets with violence even harsher than in the wars and no morality whatsoever.

Or at least something along those lines :-)

I've heard of Underground before in forums and the like, but I have NEVER heard that it was a superhero(-esque) game.  Or anything about the premise of the game for that matter.  It weirds me out.

Anyway this looks like a good candidate for a conversion to Wild Talents (mmm... tasty).  Then again a lot of things are looking good for conversion to Wild Talents for some reason... and the game isn't even out yet.

Underground isn't still in print is it?  Hmm... I'll have to hunt it down and give it to myself for Christmas.  :-)

-Joshua