Anachronistic SciFi - the beginings of an idea

[Ring Kichard]

So far the reason given for the lack of ubiquitous supertech has been that it would be too easy for malicious Oddsmiths to wreck. How about going the other way with it? Oddsmiths, who twist quantum reality by their existence, involuntarily make anything fail that relies on that level of detail.

Quantum computers would be the most obvious point of failure, if the quantum reality kept shifting in improper ways. This would limit computers to transistor technology, and large ones at that. Modern American technology is already close to worrying about quantum tunneling in chip fabrication and operation. The end result on computers is a growth limit.

The one exception to all of this could be the Unobtanium. Due to its super-robust quantum lattice  (or some other unobtainable property) it acts as a proper Schrödinger quantum region (kryptonite). Unobtanium would both prevent intentional Oddsmithing against an object thus shielded, and also prevent the ubiquitous accidental quantum shifts from wrecking delicate electronics.

This would result in two major outcomes, I think. First, Star drives and supertech might be possible, but would be outrageously expensive and only used sparingly. In a world where everything is measured by cost / effectiveness the lower tech methods would likely be much more effective.

Second, I think this is a large flavor opportunity. A shield of unobtanium, onto which vacuum tubes might be grafted, would shield the occasional computer from quantum disruption. The tubes would be impervious to the low scale disruption of far off Oddsmiths, and allow humans to interface with the more fragile supercomputer lurking beneath the surface. Unobtanium gas might be used in stardrive buffers to prevent the unstable quantum polarizations from tearing the ship apart. The quantum disruptions of Oddsmiths might cause small telltale changes in their environment. (I remember in Scientific American a while ago they did the calculation of several hundred trillion years – or some equally unlikely amount of time - for a can of Coke-a-Cola to fall over on it's own quantum motion).

[Balbinus]

[quote="BailywolfI never much cared for Fading Suns- I don't like the 'society in decline' or the 'last act of the morality play' or whatever angsty justification is given for an archaic society in a scifi setting therein.  I wanted a sociaty which is vital, rich, and complex without descending uneringly into oblivion- the damn suns are fading.  If all I wanted gloom, I'd play Vampire In Space.[/quote]

After this post I will have some comments on the oddsman idea.  I just wanted to mention as an aside though that I think you may have misunderstood the point of Fading Suns.  The idea is that the characters may discover why the suns are fading and stop it.  It's not supposed to be angsty at all, it's supposed to be about grand passions leading to redemption.

There is no unerring descent into oblivion, that's the whole point of the game.  We can do something to stop it and the characters are the people who will.  Angst ridden characters really don't fit into the Fading Suns setting at all, it's not that kind of game.

Anyway, as promised I shall repost later today with some comments on Oddsmen, which is after all more on topic.

[damion]

Another idea:
Overuse of some sort of technology, say FTL, or powerful quantum computers damaged the fabric of space & probability. (I lean toward computers)
OddSmiths can actually work with this damaged space. Either they can manipulate it somehow, or perhaps they can just see probabilities, thus they can navigate the probablity dimension.  

This makes the oddsmiths not responsible for everything. Thus, very limited high tech is possible, but two much starts opening up dimensional rifts or possibiliy probability goes hayware, events at the extrems of probability become more likely than common events. Elements may spontaniously decay, people may turn to giant tumors, ect.

[gizem]

I think the only difference between "oddsmithing" and garden-variety-psionics is "colour". Oddsmithing is psionics with quantum mechanics talk. The colour makes the difference between fantasy and science fiction, but it does not "explain" anything or make it scientific. Like Dune, which attempts to justify some of its psionics by genetics talk. But fails in explaining it scientifically.

As I said Dune has its own scientific problems, but the Butlerian Jihad idea is brilliant and before its time in science fiction. Herbert saw that humans would be obsolete in the far future, when he wrote Dune (it was before computers got big). That's why he has the Jihad, I believe. If you have anything near todays rate in technological progress we'll all be obsolete rather soon. In my game the expiry date for homo sapiens was 2030, for example (it'll take more time in reality- I hope). Anyway, Luddite attitudes like the Butlerian Jihad are a good solution for epic, retro-style science fiction, where humans are under the spotlights.

Another retro-scientific solution could be obtained from the fact that a high-tech society requires a widespread industrial base. So it goes like this, somehow men are not rendered obsolete and nanotech, ai etc don't get realised. Humanity discovers ftl tech (again somehow) and expands very fast very far. But something changes (hyperspace storms? unforseen side effects of the ftl technology?) and suddenly ftl travel becomes much slower, expensive and rare, making export of mass produced goods out of question. Only luxury goods are traded, such as Mexorgian giant squid juices, Blurdian mega cherries, etc. And the locals use whatever they find, animals, knives etc. Any imported core-worlds technology will eventually fail as there are no local means to maintain it. Also what good are cars where there are no gas stations? Cellular phones where there is no network? etc. So each planet will have its own industrial/technological level and humans will be the only constant features. This may increase the value of flexible individuals who can both fire megablasters and duel with swords. You can get near psionic effects with superior training and conditioning techniques such as the Bene Gesserit "voice" and Guild Mentat training. These are scientifically possible, even though hard to believe, they are no psionics.

Finally, I think the "Unobtainium armour-wearing knights ruling the universe" idea has cartoon/manga level of realism. Many holes can be punched in it (through scientific criticism), but I won't do it here because I don't know the intended level or realism for that game. It will probably work well for a light-sf/manga space opera. Like Star Wars, but not like Dune. Dune is not so hard, but not so light either.

I hope I don't sound too negative,

Regards,
Gizem Forta

[Matt Snyder]

I think the only difference between "oddsmithing" and garden-variety-psionics is "colour". Oddsmithing is psionics with quantum mechanics talk. The colour makes the difference between fantasy and science fiction, but it does not "explain" anything or make it scientific. Like Dune, which attempts to justify some of its psionics by genetics talk. But fails in explaining it scientifically.

This hits just what I was getting at in an earlier post. I don't want to see Oddsmithing "color" veneer for psionics. It isn't just color. I envision it as hard-coded, if you will, into the game's mechanics. Oddsmithing isn't telekinetics or weirding modules or whatever. It's probability manipulation, which on the one hand is easy to include in game mechanic and on the other hand difficult to inject personality and style. In other words, the challenge is to make it more interesting than just tweaking dice rolls and having darned lucky characters. The power's got to have a little more pizazz than that, but I'm not sure what that is.

Now, I think gizem's making a slightly different point, namely that oddsmithing wouldn't really hold up to hard science criticism. That's ok with me, because I'm not interested in such a hard sci. approach.

[Mike Holmes]

I think the only difference between "oddsmithing" and garden-variety-psionics is "colour". Oddsmithing is psionics with quantum mechanics talk. The colour makes the difference between fantasy and science fiction, but it does not "explain" anything or make it scientific. Like Dune, which attempts to justify some of its psionics by genetics talk. But fails in explaining it scientifically.

Hmmm.. I agree that without further explanation that the Oddsmithing is pretty soft. As far as the abilities in Dune, I think that they are given a spiritual caast and that this often causes them to seem softly Psionic. However, there is also a constant underlying sense that some of the characters are aware of just how hard (technologically) and limited their abilities are. If yo can buy the mentats, then it's not too big a jump to assume a hyperintelligent human who can just extend normal intuition to heights not before seen. After all we're dealing with the human mind, and that's something that we are really unaware of the capabilities of. Especially when you start to include the addition of such things as exotic drugs (the sixties analog of LSD is not overlooked). As such, I don't see anything in Dune as all that far out.

In any case, there is a difference between actually hard, and hard-sounding. I'm noit sure exacly where BW wants his game to end up.

Another retro-scientific solution could be obtained from the fact that a high-tech society requires a widespread industrial base. So it goes like this, somehow men are not rendered obsolete and nanotech, ai etc don't get realised. Humanity discovers ftl tech (again somehow) and expands very fast very far. But something changes (hyperspace storms? unforseen side effects of the ftl technology?) and suddenly ftl travel becomes much slower, expensive and rare, making export of mass produced goods out of question. Only luxury goods are traded, such as Mexorgian giant squid juices, Blurdian mega cherries, etc. And the locals use whatever they find, animals, knives etc. Any imported core-worlds technology will eventually fail as there are no local means to maintain it. Also what good are cars where there are no gas stations? Cellular phones where there is no network? etc. So each planet will have its own industrial/technological level and humans will be the only constant features.

Cool idea. The only downside to this is that after a time each planet would likely achieve it's own high tech base. So you can't have an ancient tradition bound society. Instead you'd have a more wild west sort of atmosphere. A cool idea in and of itself, but might not work for what BW wants.

Finally, I think the "Unobtainium armour-wearing knights ruling the universe" idea has cartoon/manga level of realism. Many holes can be punched in it (through scientific criticism), but I won't do it here because I don't know the intended level or realism for that game. It will probably work well for a light-sf/manga space opera. Like Star Wars, but not like Dune. Dune is not so hard, but not so light either.

Ouch. I'm wounded. Well, to be fair, I did present it that way so as to display the underbelly of how it would work from a game mechanic sort of perspective, and thus failed to put forth any explanation of how it might potentially work. But if you really want me to display it in such a way as it makes harder sci-fi sense, I can do that. It'd have to do with force fields, and inertial conversion. Stuff that scientists are pondering as we speak.

In any case, anyone who points to the softness of such technologies while tacitly accepting FTL is making an odd point, IMO. Somehow that one always is allowed.

Mike

[Bailywolf]

I didn't want really hard scifi... rather a setting which held together by its own rules- limited but broadly aplicable weirdness.

Matt has it spot-on.  The kind of game system which underpins this thing has to be fully blended with the setting.  Characters will of course be drawn from the oddsbending eliet upper classes- masters of a speciality or descended from a noble line etc.  

The galactic society is complex, tradition bound, intricate... the characters are complex, dynamic, ambitious, and innovative... and by their nature they make change more likely.  Dynamism vs Tradition...

I have this really hinky idea that Social Conventions can be generated through some kind of mechanical process... perhaps with a donjon-like "discovery"process whcih will allow players to construct the societies thye interact with and move through... I can see a multi-point matrix with differeing ratings in things like Openness, Adaptability, Censure, Stability etc...  each with a color-filled discriptor....

Mallkandor Prime
Description: An old Core World renowned for its dedication to all things carnal.
Openness: 9 (nothing is hidden- let your deepst self out.  Keeping secrets is taboo. )
Adaptability: 4 (dependent on its status as a Core World, tourism, and the Imperial Endowment to maintin its exotic lifestyle)
Censure: 3 (very little is punished- only robbing another of their pleasure is considered a crime.  And any taste can be cartered to for the right price...)
Stability 8 (an old and entrenched Council of Astetics rules this world- they deny their flesh so as to rule a world of libertines.  Very stable).



These are just larks (and not great ones), but you see where I'm going.

[gizem]

Matt-
You're right about the point I was trying to make. I used the word "colour" not in the sense Ron uses it. It was not really related to game design.

Mike-

If yo can buy the mentats, then it's not too big a jump to assume a hyperintelligent human who can just extend normal intuition to heights not before seen. After all we're dealing with the human mind, and that's something that we are really unaware of the capabilities of. Especially when you start to include the addition of such things as exotic drugs (the sixties analog of LSD is not overlooked). As such, I don't see anything in Dune as all that far out.

I agree with this in general. Mentats don't break the rules of physics, so I buy them. I don't think it's possible to break those no matter how much drugs you take. You'll think you are breaking them, but it's not quite the same thing. :) For me that's the limit, the laws of nature. You are correct in saying that Dune is not so far out. Where Dune fails is biology (Ron may correct me here if I'm wrong :))- the child having her mother's memories, for example. Also foreseeing the future with 100% accuracy is impossible. But to make good guesses not so, when you have a properly trained, hyperintelligent human (i.e. a mentat) on spice, etc. It is less impossible than, say, the child having all her ancestors' memories and skills.

Cool idea. The only downside to this is that after a time each planet would likely achieve it's own high tech base. So you can't have an ancient tradition bound society. Instead you'd have a more wild west sort of atmosphere. A cool idea in and of itself, but might not work for what BW wants.

You are right in saying that this state is transitory. Especially when knowledge can spread so easily from one planet to another. One solution could be to make this more difficult. Left to their own resources, a pre-industrial society is bound to stay that way for centuries at least, which would be enough time to have some traditions. Still selective Luddism a la Dune seems to be a better solution.

Ouch. I'm wounded. Well, to be fair, I did present it that way so as to display the underbelly of how it would work from a game mechanic sort of perspective, and thus failed to put forth any explanation of how it might potentially work. But if you really want me to display it in such a way as it makes harder sci-fi sense, I can do that. It'd have to do with force fields, and inertial conversion. Stuff that scientists are pondering as we speak.

In any case, anyone who points to the softness of such technologies while tacitly accepting FTL is making an odd point, IMO. Somehow that one always is allowed.

Sorry Mike, no offense. I apologise for any taken. I did say that the idea would work fine as it is at Star Wars level. It may be possible to explain the idea in some other way, but I doubt I'll ever be convinced unless it is seriously transformed. Since I study physics it is not so easy for me to "suspend my disbelief" in these issues. Finally, I don't buy ftl "tacitly" for sure. I wrote something like "humanity somehow develops ftl flight" where "somehow" meant "don't ask me how". :) But as we all know it is very useful for science fiction (especially for space opera). Anyway, it is less impossible than, say, modifying quantum probabilities by thought. I'll have ftl in my next game too. And without any explanations. :) Maybe I am being hypocritical here. If so I apologise again. :)

Regards,
Gizem Forta

[Balbinus]

I propose Oddsmithing- a highliy evolved capacity inherent in sapient minds to alter or read probability.  Like Nivin's "psychic luck" seen in his Known Space but conscious.  A warrior Oddsman can- with minimal effort- warp the path of ranged fire because such vectors and things are tenuous and- a slight variation in degree of aim at the point of fire can mean a miss by inches or miles at the point of impact.  

He can also react instinctively to the actions around him- fighting as if one beat ahead of his enemies, dodging blows before the fall.  Against enemies with no ability to Oddsmith (most of the pleabian classes certainly) he could be nigh invulnerable.  Combine this well honed mind-body talent with the highest quality weapons & light unobtrusive armor and one man could devistate many thousands.

You can't poison him, drown him, sufficate him etc- he simply avoids your intended attacks by reacting to the probability of their success.  Without your own Oddsmithers to couter him, your technology will fail (complex as it is) and your armies will snarl into confused masses as every possible accident and battlefield folly befalls you.  

What is left are eliet units of Oddsman Comandos or Duelists who fight their esoteric battles both on the material plane, but also on the methphysical plane of quantum possibility.

On a grander scale- planetery politics- the competing influences of the various power blocs stable of dedicated oddsmiths counters out...but if one factions oddsman defected...or were assassinated...

Some facitons will treat their oddsmithers with nigh worship and privelege, others like most valued employes, still others like nothing but slaves or human merchandise.  The Empire will condition its oddsmiths for total loyality...and various training schools will instill similar ethical conditioning.  

Any profession can benifit from a dedicated Oddsmith- an oddsmith surgeon can expect his treatments to work as well as possible.  An oddsmith enginere can see his machines go for years without service.

And perhaps there are a rare few- part prophet, part mesia, part revolutionary- who can apply their powers to ALL things- from controling the reaction of a crowd, to the weather, to the harvest, to the function of a FTL drive....



Naturaly evolved living creatures are far more resistant to direct oddsmith interference- they have huge redundancy built in by millions of years of random mutation.  Innefecient, but flexible.  Most mechanisms fall sway to an oddsman's hex with disturbing ease.  When a Gravtank can be made to founder and explode among your own troops with a bit of focused attention from the enemy's Jinxers, those lancers astridse riding raptors look much better...

Not sure I wholly follow the logic here.  Is there a range component to Oddsmen's powers?  If I shift an asteroid out of its solar orbit so that months from now it will, by the inexorable laws of physics, spiral into your world striking with the force of a million H-bombs can the oddsman somehow stop that?  Is range irrelevant?

If you are invading my country and I arm my troops with simple sten guns, as used in WW2 by the British, will you make those fail?  If not we're right back to massed combat between opposing armies.

There is a lot of tech in between swords and grav tanks.  A lot of WW2 stuff was designed to work with high reliability and minimal maintenance.  Ok, I can't take out your oddsman but if I lob shells at your army I can still stop them from advancing to my position.  You need troops to occupy my territory, not just hypercommandos.  My old fashioned guns and bombs still work against your troops.

I suspect Oddsmen would lead to a high tech culture with superassassins and superbodyguards, not a low-tech interstellar empire.  I'm not sure how this development on it's own gets you where you want to go.

Sorry to sound so negative.  The thing is, players will try this stuff in play.  

Also, if living systems can reduce oddsmens effects by virtue of the level of built-in redundancy, we'll just build machines with as much redundancy.  I don't see what makes living things so special.  Build the gravtank with multiple redundancies, it'll be clunkier but still faster than a raptor.  If an Oddsman can stop me dropping dead weights on your armies from orbit why can't he stop my heart from across the solar system?  If he can make the gravtank fail, why can't he make my raptor suddenly turn on me?

[Balbinus]

The way I forsee an warrior Oddsmith's defesnive powers is two fold- he actively evades the most dangerous probabilities, and also actively warps and distorts others.  He not only moves in such a way as to reduce the chance that a rain drop will hit him, but also subtly alters the paths of the drops when they fall so that they are already highly unlikly to hit him.

I think this goes a little beyond probability control.  The probability of not getting wet if you are a man sized object not under cover in a rainstorm is basically 0%.  Not getting any rain on you gets a bit OTT for me.

Wouldn't it be better to say that Oddsmen can be taken out by field effects or massed fire but are careful to ensure that they are never in that situation to begin with?  The Oddsman doesn't get wet not because rain veers to avoid him but because he happens not to go out at the time it is raining.  Similarly, the Oddsman is not killed by the poisonous gas floating over the battlefield because at that moment he happens to be at base discussing tactics.

It seems more probabilistic that way.  A message arrives at base holding him up, so that he doesn't get to the front in time and isn't there when the gas hits.  All the gas suddenly swerving due to freak wind currents or whatever when it would have hit him seems less a use of probability control and more just generic super-power.

I like the probability control, I think it would work better though as a slightly lower key effect, just as powerful but less anime-esque.  A kind of controllable super luck, rather than a mixture of telekinesis and esp.

[Bob McNamee]

One thing about the Oddsmithing ability ...  since it effects probabilities and observable events it could lead to science never advancing really very much.

If oddsmithing has been around for a long time, science may never really take off, since the foundation of scientific research is verifiable repeateble observations... and the "observer" nature of oddsmithing may prevent much hard repeatable experiments... especially if some scientist have a touch of "odds power"...heck, even our scientists skew data for their own pet theories...their experiamenter can literally skew the data.

Bob McNamee

...course that interpretation would take it more toward fantasy than Sci-fi....unless some of the really Hi Tech stuff is leftovers from older civs that no longer exist.

[contracycle]

Well heres tuppence worth.

I liked Rings projections of unobtanium use, especially as an insulant.  What if the problem is reveresed and its not so much the oddsmiths radiating dynamism as the technology.  They have an absolutely free, large and infinite supply of energy in the form of a generator that operates on quantum fluctuations and virtual particles popping in and out of existance.  The problem is not having too little energy, but too much - it radiates in huge quantities from the planetary stations, disrupting "quantum" interactions at huge distances like thousands of kilometers.  Unobtanium is expensive and rare becuase so much of it is required as shielding for absolutely anything electronic that you want to work anywhere within these fields.  However, another use for all this energy would be a laser launch system to propel ships, by detonating reaction mass like ice attched to the hull of a ship.  Such a system would allow basically free access to orbit, and you can glide down at your convenience.  The only place to be on a planet would be near a space port, but being near a space port means you cant use any electronics and or other level of tech.

You could also use this as an argument for the social structure; perhaps the "radiation" has a subtle effect on society, at least thats an area to possibly explore.  Anywayway, you could structure a society that had limited high tech by making placement difficult; maybe the effects cover whole solar systems.  Around where the majority of people will be, tech has to be low to be functional or high priority to be shielded.  You might have a very high level of materials technology produced in shielded or remote production facilities, and mostly muscle power in its application.  Which would also pretty much create a high demand for personal services in the affected zone, in that a high tech diamand lattice cart drawn by a few guys or a horse only goes so fast.

Also, one of the best investments you can make with unobtanium is a ship, becuase the whole thing has to be a self-contained bubble anyway.  An unobtanium skin is easy to fit to something that has to be completely tight by design, and allows you to enclose a lot of high-tech hardware which you can fling into space with your free energy.  And in space you can get all the iron and water and everything else you desire from solar powered autofacs in planetary and solar orbit.   We live on planets becuase we like the wind in our hair and the grass between our toes.

As for warrior ideas, one decision that would have to made is to whether or not chemical and mechanical actions work, basically to address guns.  But with this setup it would be easy to have melee weapons made out of all sorts of exotic materials extracted from the hearts of gas giants and the like.  Its likely that with limited opportunity and even need for large scale manufacturing, many broad uses of technology would fall off the priority list in favour of general applications, like construction materail and household implements, and the extremely specialist, at the whim of the those who wield the unobtanium.