Sorcerer & Sword news

[Zak Arntson]

Don't cringe, but the demon/sorcerer take would work great for Tolkein's One Nasty Ring.

But thoughts go instantly turns to Karl Edwards' Dark Crusade novel (good Relationship Map and TONS of Destiny) and the Elric series, what with that sword and all.

Also after hearing about that French (?) rpg where you roleplay a weapon foremost, and its various owners second, I can imagine that S&Sword would work great for this. You play a demon first and various wielders (read: sorcerers) second.

[Bailywolf]

Oh wicked cool!  I too have heard and am anticipating Bloodlust (translation by Hogshead if I'm not mistaken).  And the sorcerer parallels... Hmmm....


What about a game in which all the players are demons- especialy well developed, more or less anthrocognizant (a word I just assembled- "think like people"), and immortal.  They are summoned and "bound" by pesky humans across the whole of human history to manipulate, corrupt, haggle, and persue their own wierd agendas.  Create a demon, then his Summoner... and instead of Need and Desire, the sorcerer might have Obsession and Weakness... obsessed with Wealth but Trustworthy for example....

Damn, but this could work...

Play the genie from the lamp, the fiend in the pentagram, the spectral ancestor... hmmmmmmm.

Anyone want to field this as a mini-suplement?

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

To be clear about this, before a bunch of expectations get going ...

Sorcerer & Sword contains no material for playing demons as characters.

I'm looking forward to Bloodlust too, and it's a FANTASTIC idea, but it was THEIR idea.

A mini-supplement about that would be OK, but I'd be concerned that it was merely a "conversion from Bloodlust." Of course, if same concept was applied in Sorcerer terms and it added, changed, or took a different approach from Bloodlust (whatever that turns out to be for us non-Frenchies), then a mini-supplement would be most welcome.

One last thing: all the Kane stories (books = Night Winds, Bloodstone, Dark Crusade, Death Angel's Shadow, and Darkness Weaves) are major 1970s influences on Sorcerer & Sword and I highly recommend them.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Snyder]

Ron --

Here I am again asking newbie questions. Ok, I understand the general concept of Sorceror. Intriguing, but I haven't managed to get a good look for myself just yet.

However, I'm not sure I understand Sorceror & Sword. Is it a kind of "add-on" to Sorceror, or a full game itself? What's the difference between the core game and Sorceror & Sword? I gather you intend it to be more in teh sword-and-sorcery genre vein?

Maybe I'm way off here. I'll shut up and hope you explain.

[Zak Arntson]

On 2001-11-08 13:07, Ron Edwards wrote:
I'm looking forward to Bloodlust too, and it's a FANTASTIC idea, but it was THEIR idea.

This is all too true.  The minute I heard their idea, I LOVED it and immediately my brain started thinking about how it would be executed.  If my vision doesn't match Bloodlust's, or Bloodlust comes off a little blah ... I'll probably wind up using Sorcerer mechanics if I ever play it  Or write my own.

A mini-supplement about that would be OK, but I'd be concerned that it was merely a "conversion from Bloodlust."

See what I wrote above.  I wouldn't see the point of a Bloodlust conversion if their game handles their Premise well.  But if I don't like what they do, say BRP or Rolemaster-esque rules, I'll fiddle with the Premise, bring it in line with the themes of Sorcerer, and do a mini-sup for yah  Of course, if the French handle rpgs with the same capacity they do comics ...

One last thing: all the Kane stories (books = Night Winds, Bloodstone, Dark Crusade, Death Angel's Shadow, and Darkness Weaves) are major 1970s influences on Sorcerer & Sword and I highly recommend them.

Wow!  I didn't realize there were more Kane books ... crap!  I've got to hit the bookstores tonight.  Dark Crusade was my favorite of the stack of books you recommended (I'm 5 to 6 books into it, almost halfway through!)

[Ron Edwards]

Hey Matt,

No need to be cautious about questions! I love them.

Sorcerer is the game, and Sorcerer & Sword is a supplement. It's not a stand-alone game. Its goal is pretty much what I described to Gareth earlier on the thread, which is to apply the Sorcerer rules in a way that brings a certain brand of fantasy into role-playing (where it's never been).

A group would use the supplement to create fantasy adventures from scratch (setting and all).

Hope that helps; ask more questions as needed.

Best,
Ron

[Bailywolf]

Hey Ron,

For pure fun, how would you write up a Stormbringer type demon sword for S&S?  Obviously Object Demon.  Desire- chaos and more bloody chaos.  Need- Souls.  Abilities?   Boost perhaps (to both stamina and will... just waving the thing in a demon's face would improve your chance for binding), confered Vitality, certainly Special Damage, confered Armor perhaps, maybe Hint to represent shocks of useful advice or some such.  Its high power would make it nicely lethal... and very difficult to properly bind...

I have the hankering for a bit of Doomed Antihero...

[Zak Arntson]

On 2001-11-09 11:25, Bailywolf wrote:
For pure fun, how would you write up a Stormbringer type demon sword for S&S?  

Its high power would make it nicely lethal... and very difficult to properly bind...

Again, I don't know how Bloodlust is handling their weapon/wielder interaction, but I just had a Sorcerer-style thought ...

What if the weapons were the sorcerers and the wielders the demons? That way Elric didn't bind his demon sword, the sword bound the demon Elric. In this case, you play a completely evil sword, and Elric's Need is Humanity. His powers granted on you are his ability to summon other Demons, mobility (lugging you around), &c.

I'm gonna put dibs on that as a S&Sword supplement ...

[Ron Edwards]

Bailywolf,

I'm not really into demon creation in isolation. And the tendency with talking about Stormbringer in particular is to pile on tons of abilities in an uncritical way, because it's "so awesome" and so on.

Remember that the Elric stories were NOT written in chronological order, and certainly not with a pre-defined set of "established" characters with known capabilities.

I will consider Stormbringer ONLY in the context of The Dreaming City, in which Elric sacks Melnibone with the human armies; the "other" Dreaming City (later called Elric of Melnibone), in which he acquires the sword in the first place; The Dead Gods Book; and the novel Stormbringer. All other stories were shoehorned in later and frankly, most are pretty bad.

Stormbringer would have the abilities Special Lethal Damage, Armor (for itself), Vitality (conferred to Elric), perhaps NOT Boost Stamina, although MAYBE yes), Travel (to end up where it wants to, not sinking in the ocean, etc) ... I don't see any justification for conferring Armor to Elric, nor for Hint, although Taint might not be a bad idea. A couple of others will probably occur to me later.

Its Desire is Ruin; its Need is for love. No, its Need is not "killing people." This is Elric's mistaken notion.

It would also act as a Necromantic Token, with the Humanity of a killed person acting as a bonus pool. Its main use would be a bonus for the Vitality, and also for anything else that matches the sword's ultimate agenda (to bring about the destruction of the world). Please note that many of its other abilites (fighting by itself, one significant shape-change, e.g.) are so weird and confined to such isolated instances, that I will only consider them to be applications of the Token rather than "abilities."

Note that Stormbringer and Arioch have similar interests in the the earlier-set stories, but very different ones in the eponymous novel. (Again, I consider this entire sequence to be the "original" Elric story, and as such "earlier-written"). I regard these stories as a romantic triangle between Stormbringer, Arioch, and Elric. I regard Moonglum and Cymoril to be playing the roles of outside partners into the triangle.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Let's not forget the pre-and-during glam-rock context of these stories. Boy-boy-girl, drug-stuff, idealistic decadence, and deadly dandyism ... all there.

[Bailywolf]

On 2001-11-09 13:02, Ron Edwards wrote:

I'm not really into demon creation in isolation. And the tendency with talking about Stormbringer in particular is to pile on tons of abilities in an uncritical way, because it's "so awesome" and so on.

By 'in isolation' do you mean independent of a character or simply without concern for interfacing concepts with a specific character?  

I have to agree that most Stormbringer writeups I've seen don't take into account just how erratic its powers actualy presented in the stories.  Remember the old Deities and Demigods description?  Drains half or all life levels with every wack- ye-ouch!  

I was thinking more in gross terms than a perfect model of the blade for a sort of anti-Elric character.  All black magic and sudden death; less the Glam rocker and more the 80's thrasher- more Metalica than Ziggy Stardust.  In other words, Doom Laden and Loving It.  Pure cackling wish fulfillment.  No whining.  Better tan.



As for Elric.  Can you recomend a good resource for the actual progression of the Elric stories as they were first written?  I've been lucky enough to score a few copies of some pre-DeCamp Conan, and they are a treat.  I'd like to find some first run Elric stories if they exist.

[unodiablo]

Slightly off topic...

In the local sci fi bookstore I recently noticed some beautiful recent hardcover printings of the original Howard Conan stories. Pricey, but if you can afford them, you won't be disappointed. Full color inserted art prints too!

[Ron Edwards]

Hey there,

Sorry 'bout the line-by-line response. Time is getting short.

"By 'in isolation' do you mean independent of a character or simply without concern for interfacing concepts with a specific character?"

Exactly. Wait ... does your "or" indicate that you are presenting two alternatives? They read like the same thing to me.

"I have to agree that most Stormbringer writeups I've seen don't take into account just how erratic its powers actualy presented in the stories. Remember the old Deities and Demigods description? Drains half or all life levels with every wack- ye-ouch!"

One of my favorite anecdotes about gamers and fantasy comes from a conversation in the early 90s with a fellow who objected to my description of Elric as a "moral wimp." "No way," he protested, "Elric's a total bad-ass!" My questioning of him revealed that he was unfamiliar with ANYTHING about the character except for the Deities and Demigods description. He made no distinction between the writeup of a character in gaming terms and the actual story or existence of a character as a literary phenomenon.

"I was thinking more in gross terms than a perfect model of the blade for a sort of anti-Elric character. All black magic and sudden death; less the Glam rocker and more the 80's thrasher- more Metalica than Ziggy Stardust. In other words, Doom Laden and Loving It. Pure cackling wish fulfillment. No whining. Better tan."

Get out of the 80s, man. Although actually, there was a VERY obscure fantasy novel called Tower of Despair written in late-70-something that might qualify as the only punk-badass pulp fantasy ever written. It was surprisingly good. I'll track down the author when I'm near my bookshelf.

"As for Elric. Can you recomend a good resource for the actual progression of the Elric stories as they were first written? I've been lucky enough to score a few copies of some pre-DeCamp Conan, and they are a treat. I'd like to find some first run Elric stories if they exist."

Look for the DAW publications in the 70s. They represent the "chronological collection" in terms of Elric's saga, including the works I mentioned previously (which gained the original acclaim for the character) and the body of stories written afterward (which filled in some gaps, linked it all to the Eternal Champion material, and fluffed it up a bit). That's six books: Elric of Melnibone, The Sailor on the Seas of Fate, The Weird of the White Wolf, The Vanishing Tower, The Bane of the Black Sword, and Stormbringer.

The nice thing about these (aside from the stunning Whelan covers) is that the original dates and sources of publication are listed in the indicia. The original stories are found in the first, third, and sixth books.

Best,
Ron