d20 D&D supplements: Are they "Indie supplements&am

[Andy Kitkowski]

Well, I'm going to push that aside and give my opinion anyway; if you don't want to read it, I believe Alt-F4 will close the window on a PC.

Hey, man- Where's the love? We're all peers here.

Seriously, though- what happened here was that I started getting a flood of d20 stuff and needed some quick advice - Fast - on how to deal.  Even though I made up my mind for these awards (with the help of everyone who posted), I certainly don't consider the issue as to whether d20 games are indie or not closed... For my awards, they are decided for this year. The debate at large, and how I handle it next year, are always open.

First, although a D20 designer must use some D20 material <SNIP> should the fact that it can't have a different chargen system even be relevant?

Very astute*.  My thoughts exactly, although from a different angle.

So I could argue that any D20 game or supplement that logically could or should have a different character generation system is not indie, because that's something that can't be altered.

Yeah. The game with these awards (and other fields) is to draw the lines to include as many people as possible while still retaining the spirit of the community you're aiming for. If you draw the line here, the natural continuing argument is that ANY game based on an existing system, like Fudge or Action! or Fuzion or GoO's "Licensed TriStat" or Risus, cannot be an "Indie" game because at some level to use these systems you have to agree to certain standards beyond your control (whether it be the specifics of the system or the words of the license that you have to post in your game, or the rules you have to follow to use them).  While that argument could be successfully made, for my purposes it would turn the award towards a more closed, select group of eclectic games.  I wouldn't like to go there quite yet.

[joke]I might as well at that point rename the awards: This is the Best Ron Edwards Game of 2002 Award, This is the Best Jared Sorensen Game of 2002 Award, and over there is the Best Clinton Nixon Game of 2002 Award...[/joke] :)

On the other hand, it could as easily be argued that the designer made a design decision to commit to the basics of D20, including character generation and the main engine, and could as easily have chosen not to do so, going for the OGL or a completely original design or a different licensed product instead.

Exactly.  This is the argument I was trying to make from my artist metaphor above: Some people suck at art or design, so they make up contracts with artists. It stands to figure that some people suck at system design (or, more honestly, choose to use a system because of its strengths and closeness to their ideals) so they should be allowed to make social contracts with existing rulesets.

As much as I'd like to say exclude D20 products as they really aren't independent, the argument doesn't seem to hold.

Me too.  I don't want to say "You all are down on the d20 system because you think less of it than games with their own systems (or deisgners who "obviously" use the system to make games that will sell easier, not not to make Better games). So you make up excuses to exclude them".  It's not true, of course.  But it is a little true for ME personally, and I admit this prejudice.  Which is one of the reasons I came here, to kind of fight off that prejudice and find a way to include these games anway. I'm just more excited by homebrew works than d20 works.

In the end, though, the spirit, to me, with indie is the process of design, supplement/game building, testing, rules modification and creation, then putting it all together (often with outsourced art and the like), and putting it online or on the shelf, having had all the expenses come out-of-pocket.  This above is as true for d20 supplements as it is for other indie supplements.

Everyone's made really good points on both sides.  Even though I had made a decision on my stance, maybe we can split off this thread or just turn it into a general discussion of whether d20 games ARE indie games or not? I don't want to say "case closed".**

-Andy

* to audience: No, I don't mean to use astute here to mean "You have said something that I agree with". ;-)

** then again, I also don't want to start a flamewar...

[Mike Holmes]

Good comments. I think that the most important reason to allow D20 games given this context and the arguments presented so far is that to do otherwise would surely threaten to imugn the integrity of the award. Those who would want to say that it's just an award for games created by Forge participants would have a stronger argument. As it is, I still think that this is problematic. How many of the games submitted so far are non-Forge (and non-D20, now that the D20 community has been informed)?

The broader the base from which the voters come, the more legitimate the award will seem. And that's as important as the prize. I think that any designer who has faith in his system would rather see it compared to an unrestricted cross-section of games rather than one that was limited even in a moderately contentious way.

Mike

[Valamir]

Actually there are quite a few non Forge games on the list...I didn't count but I'm guessing as many or more, and not many of those seemed to be d20 related.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

This is by no means conclusive as far as Andy's award criteria are concerned, but by the wholly economic definition of the Forge, many D20 products are independent, and many are not.

No one seems to believe this, but Clinton and I are just as committed to helping the independent D20-publishers as to helping anyone else.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Snyder]

Hey,

This is by no means conclusive as far as Andy's award criteria are concerned, but by the wholly economic definition of the Forge, many D20 products are independent, and many are not.

No one seems to believe this, but Clinton and I are just as committed to helping the independent D20-publishers as to helping anyone else.

Best,
Ron

Ron, can you either restate or direct me to the definition for the Forge. I'm actually glad to hear this, and relieved to learn that I've completely misinterpreted the definition as it applies to D20 products (boy, that sounds weird!). I looked for a clear, concise definition from you and / or Clinton, and the one I found still left me scratching my head (it wasn't a complete definition, I think, just a quick clarification in some thread). My search for "indie" and "definiton yielded something like 1245 hits.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Matt,

The About the Forge page states its piece, but perhaps I should rewrite it or lay it out differently.

The three criteria are:

1) Creator has full executive control over the property.

2) Creator is the publisher - responsible for printing costs, art costs, etc. (Note that this does not preclude organizing venture capital or startup stocks.)

3) Profits are received and managed by the creator.

I've stated these three quite a few times, but most recently, in the What indie RPGs came out in 2002? thread. The criteria were further discussed, again pretty recently, in Discussion of 'what is independent', in which I hope some perceived ambiguities were clarified and some inaccurate assumptions were finally staked through the heart.

I ask everyone who is full of beans about some aspect of these three criteria to review all of the threads I referenced here, as well as any internal links within them, before posting.

Best,
Ron

[Jared A. Sorensen]

The three criteria are:

1) Creator has full executive control over the property.
2) Creator is the publisher - responsible for printing costs, art costs, etc. (Note that this does not preclude organizing venture capital or startup stocks.)
3) Profits are received and managed by the creator.

Ron's gonna hate me but I just gotta...

1) The Creator has full executive control over His property
2) The Creator is the publisher - responsible for all costs.
3) Prophets are received and managed by the Creator.

Haw haw...get it? Okay, this is where this thread is magically split... ;)

- J

[Andy Kitkowski]

Mike: Yeah, there's quite a bit of non-Forge (or, at least, non Core Forge) items that have been submitted.  This week I hope to get out and convince more folks to submit their stuff (maybe they haven't noticed the awards site yet): Both "Forge Folks" (Riddle of Steel gang) and others (Children of the Sun gang, others)
Ron: Thanks again for dropping The Def. Always helps.
Jared: Snork!