Dagger stats

[Starshadow]

Hullo.

Just wondering about stats for different types off dagger.
The way I read the stats in App. 2 in the Book, the stats there are mainly for poniard and rondel daggers, but how about stilettos and dirks?

Will there be any significant chages in ATN/DTN or damage?

How about more exotic dagger types such as Kukri or Kris?

I guess a stilleto would have very little cutting damage (usually no edge) and a kukri a high thrusting ATN, but how about other types, especially DTN?

Edit: BTW, is there a special name for double-edged daggers?

[[MKF]Kapten]

If Im not totally wrong, the defenition of a dagger is that it has two edges, and a knife has one edge.

[Starshadow]

Rondels and stilettos usually have no edges, and poniards and dirks usually have one edge.

Are these not daggers then?

Of course, I'm talking about sharpened edges here, and I may be totally wrong... :)

Edit: Will dirks be used with the Dagger proficiency, or are they too long, so they have to be used with the short sword proficiency?

[Edge]

I would run Dirks as being the same as rondels in game effect.  i remember jake saying something recently about him using a dagger which may be considered by some as a shortsword but it depends on the game your in and the person running it

[Salamander]

I have a few things to say here on dagger stats.

At one point in my life I was a soldier. The nature of the specific job I had required that I know how to fight using a knife. I found that the knife was generally not very good for cutting people during our training, so we always used the point. The reason being is, regardless of how sharp an edge is, you will invariably use it on other things and dull it pretty quickly. Also, as I have had reinforced with my experience as a scholar of the longsword and recruit of the rapier, the blade geometry of what we would consider a commando knife/dagger does not have the correct/optimum blade geometry neccesary to create massive injuries with a cut. In short, regardless of how sharp the blade is, it will not cut like a sword, regardless of how sharp the edge is. There are of course exceptions, like the khukri I was issued, a definite and mean chopper. However, as its blade geometry is not anything like that of "conventional" blades, it falls well outside this discussion. I could prove this to you by doing almost the same amout and type of damage with a variety of weapons sharp and not, the majority of the cut relies upon the shape of the blade and the skill of the wielder, not the sharpeness of the edge.

As almost all of these blades share a striking resemblance in blade geometry, I feel that they are pretty well covered, except maybe the stilleto, which has an even suckier blade geometry for cutting, but will generally be much better at penetrating maille.

Also, as a side note, be wary of these fancy crazy looking blades with all these exotic shapes and wild handles. In my time as a soldier I found the optimum blade designs were already thought up over four hundred years ago, when they were using these things as a matter of life and death much more frequently than we do today.

[Caz]

Rondel refers to a type of hilt, which supported one of several different kinds of blades, the majority of which had at least one sharp edge.  Several different hilt types supported the same variety of blades, rondels being the most popular in the 15th century among soldiers and martial artists in europe.
   Some blades, particularly on baselard hilts could get long enough to use short sword stats.
   Most modern combat knives have excellent blade geometry for cutting and slicing, but lack the length (leverage) and mass (weight) to deliver an effective cut or disabling slice.  The point is used to best effect with knives, especially in war (modern or otherwise).

[Tash]

I don't know if it is correct to consider a Kukri as a dagger.  As a former practitioner of Bando I have some training in Kukri and can say they are capable of things that would not be possible with any dagger, in fact they are used (and viewed) more like a sword.  A kukri in the hands of a trained soldier (like the Ghurkas) is easily capable of taking off an arm or leg, or even behead opponents with a single swipe.  The cutting power of these blades in the hands of an expert is truly shocking, and I am speaking about the smaller (12"-18" of so) ones.

The large cerimonial blades (24") can literally take the head off a full grown water buffalo.  This is in fact the reason they are issued to Ghurka regiments.  

Regarding a special name for double edged dagger, I've also generally heard the term dagger reserved for two bladed weapons, and single bladed one classed as knives.

[Dain]

Hey Guys, since I don't see the words Main Gauche (spelling probably wrong here) in the book anywhere, does that fall into one of the listed two types, or is it yet another. I guess what I'm really asking is what DTN to use.

[Salamander]

I don't know if it is correct to consider a Kukri as a dagger.  As a former practitioner of Bando I have some training in Kukri and can say they are capable of things that would not be possible with any dagger, in fact they are used (and viewed) more like a sword.  A kukri in the hands of a trained soldier (like the Ghurkas) is easily capable of taking off an arm or leg, or even behead opponents with a single swipe.  The cutting power of these blades in the hands of an expert is truly shocking, and I am speaking about the smaller (12"-18" of so) ones.

The large cerimonial blades (24") can literally take the head off a full grown water buffalo.  This is in fact the reason they are issued to Ghurka regiments.  

Regarding a special name for double edged dagger, I've also generally heard the term dagger reserved for two bladed weapons, and single bladed one classed as knives.

I have worked with Gurkhas (2GR) and have never heard or saw any form of official martial art where they teach the use of a khukri. They just lived with the damn things and knew how to use them.

As for the ceremonial Sirupati (the honkin' huge khukri used during Dashain, the Celebration of Mar), they are pretty cool. But the Pandit is always very careful as to whom he chooses to determine the fortunes of the regiment for the year.

The knife-dagger thing I don't really get. I have used Commando knives with two edges and am getting a rondel dagger with one edge!

[Tash]

Bando isn't the official martial art of the Gurkhas, rather it hails from Burma.  During the British occpation of that nation many of the Gurkhas stationed there studied Bando and the kukri became incorporated into the system.  It retains that importance today, even though Burma is no longer subject to British rule, but Bando is not the offical martial art of the Gurkhas.

[Drifter Bob]

I point this out often, but it's worth mentioning that the Kurkri knife is descended from the ancient Greek Falcata / Kopis sword, (the former is probably identical to the larger Kurkri, the latter were up to three feet long!)  The weapon was introduced to India via Alexanders troops.  Another notable descendant of this weapon is the Turkish Yataghan (sp)

Don't forget, by the way, that TFOB may very well have many new weapons in it.

JR

[Valamir]

If memory serves, the Egyptian Khopesh sword actually predates the Greek weapons and given the level of contact between the two societies is the likely antecedent for them.

[Starshadow]

I really hate to brake into your discussion here, but if we could go back to my initial questions?

What stats should be used for different types of daggers/knives?

Are the stats in the Book only for rondel and poniard daggers?

[Valamir]

The granularity of TROS is too course to allow much differentiation between dagger types.  I mean when you have what...2 points of damage different between an arming sword and a long sword...how much room for different types of daggers is there really?

You have your thrusty daggers, and you have your slashy daggers.  I'd go with the stats that are there and call it whatever you want, honestly.

[Drifter Bob]

The granularity of TROS is too course to allow much differentiation between dagger types.  I mean when you have what...2 points of damage different between an arming sword and a long sword...how much room for different types of daggers is there really?

You have your thrusty daggers, and you have your slashy daggers.  I'd go with the stats that are there and call it whatever you want, honestly.

There is some limitation in how much detail you could go to, but consider this, you have thrusting specialist (rondel, poniard, stiletto) cutting specialist (bowie, kurkri, sax) general (baselard) then you have very large daggers (cinqueda, coustille, dirk, some saxes) which can play a more defensive role and even have a little bit of reach, versus smaller weapons.  Then you have some like the rondel and the poniard which are armor piercing, and some like the cinqueda and the old Roman puggio which are very wide bladed and may not penetrate as well, but would do much more damage if they did penetrate.  

You have cut attack, thrust attack, defense, cut damage, thrust damage, and armor piercing or not as factors to play with.

So you have a big and small awl type dagger, big and small cutters, big and small general purpose blades, armor piercing and not armor piercing.... you could have as many as 8 sub-types, perhaps.  Then there may also be some way to discern between single versus double edged, heavy (military) versus light (civilian) blades, etc. etc.  You have different kind of cutters, choppers like a Kurkri vs slashing or draw-cutting weapons like razors or arabic saber shaped daggers.

Not that I've been spending a lot of time thinking about all this... ;)

JR