Spell: Fountain of Youth

[Adrynian]

I realize that on page 106, under Growth:Maturing it says, "As time may not be reversed, making things younger is impossible," but I think I've still figured out a reasonable way around that when it comes to reversing - actually, 'reparing' - aging on people and other living things.  

So, here goes:

FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH
Spell of Many
CTN = 13 (casting time: 13 hours)
T) 3 R) 2 V) 2 D) 0 L) 6 (3 +1 +1 +1)
Vagaries: Sculpture 3, Growth 2-3, Conquer 2-3, Vision 3
Effects: Intricacy 3, Composition 3, Maturing 2-3, Repress 2-3, Clairvoyance 3, and Divination 3

This spell restores a living body to a 'youthful' state; that is, one without the damage, lost structural integrity, lost functional integrity, and proximity to death of an aged state of being.  Effectively, the recipient of the spell's effects regains youthfulness and life equivalent to one decade for every success of the spell, as far back as puberty.

·   Intricacy allows the caster to reorganize cells and the intercellular matrix in a manner that restores a body's structural integrity

·   Composition allows the elimination of toxins, artery-wall plaque build-up, and other damaging chemicals - such as free radicals - from the body at the same time as it allows - in combination with Intricacy - the integration of molecules into sub-cellular structures, such as the telomeres on the DNA of [stem] cells, to restore youthful cell functioning

·   Maturing provides the time necessary to let cells replicate themselves as replacements for those lost from aging and scarring

·   Repress exists to eliminate the pain that would be experienced from undergoing such a radical reorganization of the body's state of being

·   Clairvoyance lets the caster 'see' what they are doing

·   Divination allows the caster to feel out the consequences of each action they take before they take it.  Changes in complex systems have complex results, and as a result, the caster needs to be able to identify what the likely consequences of an action will be



Justification of Spell Possibility:  Aging is an anomaly; actually, it is a necessary function of living things, presumably for the purpose of evolutionary adaptation of organisms to their surroundings.  But, it is not necessarily a fact of life.  For example, there are cancer cells that were taken from a woman back in the fifties – I believe it was – that have been kept living in a petri dish ever since.  As long as they're provided with food and air, they keep on living and replicating, without any change in their structure or function.  Aging appears to be a combination of a number of things:

1.   Pre-programmed cell death from telomere length on a strand of DNA; at every cell division, the telomere is shortened and when it's too short, the cell can no longer divide, so that as cells hit the telomere limit, more die than reproduce, and the aging starts to show up

2.   Environmental damage to the body from toxins, sunlight, and things like free radicals; eliminating toxins and free radicals from the body, as well as restoring the body to pre-damage conditions should undo much of the damage and health danger

3.   Structural damage such as scarring and damage to the body's intercellular matrix (which causes wrinkles)

4.   Possibly changes in the functioning of the dynamic, non-linear (i.e. complex) system that is a living organism.  Switches from one strange attractor to another in the multi-variable system, where some strange attractors are associated with youthful-body functioning and others with elderly-body functioning, seem to occur – puberty and menopause being examples of switches at the system level, with cancerous cell functioning being an example at the individual cell level.  It should be possible to 'switch' the system back into 'youthful' behaviour with the right 'tweaking' (this is a key area where divination comes in with the spell – it's practically impossible without it to know what will happen when you start disrupting variables in a complex system)

There is nothing that says we can't regenerate the body and restore its vitality to a youthful state of being.  In fact, quite the opposite: it seems entirely possible that rudimentary forms of such a real-life technology may exist within, at most, the next hundred years, assuming no major disruptions to technology's advancement.  Doing so would seem to grant the recipient an extended life span, as if the body had not suffered the damage and debilities of the intervening years.  Notice that one is not 'turning back time,' but merely restoring the body to a youthful state; that is, a state where it looks and behaves and exists as it did before old age set in.  It truly would be a 'fountain of youth.'  It even seems likely that some 'internalized' form of this spell is what keeps the Fey youthful, although they apparently can't sustain such in the face of the shocks and disruptions to the body from heavy magic use.



Motivation for Designing This Spell: I actually don't think that humans would have the knowledge or the patience to cast such a spell, though mostly just not the knowledge.  The Fey, on the other hand, are ancient, and what's more, they have every reason to develop such a spell.  Imagine if you will, having eternity at your doorstep.  Now imagine being able to handle magicks from a very early age (what's in the book, like age two?).  Let's assume that the average Fey participates in a yearly celebration/festival where it is expected that they cast some form of spell, let's say something to 'keep the natural balance.'  Let's say that each Fey casts only one such spell each year and, with a conservative estimate, it ages them one month – and this is the only aging they experience.  Then every twelve years, they will age effectively one year.  By the time they are 1200 years old, they will look like they're about 100 years old, basically, like their time is just about up.  Yet, the Fey are supposed to be immortal.  Even if you'll live 1200 years, there's still a great deal of incentive, right around the time you're 400 years old on this time scale (i.e. equivalent of 40years old – when penalties start to kick in) to start trying to design and learn the necessary knowledges and skills for a spell such as above.  Of course, if you did start looking, you probably wouldn't have another 800 years left, but with entire societies of such people, the odds of discovering and using such a spell go up dramatically.

[Adrynian]

Oh, sorry, the CTN for that spell should be 11, cause it's a Spell of Many (meaning -2).

It was too late for me to edit the post by the time it occurred to me.

[Jem]

Batufiul peice of work eh, I've been trying to figure out a way to reverse aging for some time, eh, nice

[Fleinhoy]

Not bad at all. The only change I would have made to it is that it can not affect the ageing cause by using magic. Mages in TROS are powerful enough as they are, and removing the one thing that makes spellcasting dangerous sends them way over the top.

As a result of this I would also change the background info to somehing like this: human mages have deviced a way of keeping old age at bay through magic, they cannot stave of the effects caused by casting their spells, but they can remove the natural years coming on top of this.

Most fey, however, would not have any use for this spell since natural ageing has no effect on them, partially because of this they see this spell as a profanity against nature and they generally view those whom they know to have used it with distain.

[Adrynian]

My line of reasoning was exactly the opposite, funnily enough.  I couldn't see the Fey sitting back and allowing themselves to age, even just a little bit, if they had the opportunity for immortality.  If you have nearly eternity at your doorstep, why wouldn't you try to find a way to reverse the aging process you were forced to undergo by using an ability so completely inborn and natural - to you - as sorcery?  That way, you could enjoy eternity as a strong, healthy youth.  

Hmm, I remember reading that the Fey believe they`ll just be reborn again, so maybe this spell is a new development that started after all that warring reduced Fey numbers and aged the rest (pg 196); they used the spell to restore youthfulness to the remaining Fey and keep their Houses large and strong.  Forgive me, game designers, if I'm stepping on toes here, but I think in my games I might tie a spell such as this into the rarity of new Fey births.  Perhaps, when this spell was designed, the sorceror(s) didn't take into account all the possible effects on the reproductive system and they somehow screwed that part up, but because they were only using the divination aspect of the spell to avoid major body meltdowns - when they`re manipulating system functions - and because Fey births are so rare anyway, they didn`t notice what they were doing and now it`s come back to haunt them.  So the two go hand in hand: the current generations are getting older and the Houses want to stay strong so people have their youth restored, and there are fewer and fewer births so there`s more incentive to restore youthfulness to the current generation, and the whole thing leads to a downward spiral of rejuvenation and reduced fertility.

Also, the way I see it, this spell isn't actually complete as is.  (Personally, I think it should have a higher CTN than it does, but I'm not sure how to do it.)  I would also add something like a surgery roll for every hour of the casting; each failed roll reduces one success from the casting, while a botch could kill the patient.  Better yet, make it something like a 'humanoid physiology/biology' roll, which virtually no-one would have.  There's no such thing as the scientific method, so only a few people who devoted their lives - or in the case of the Fey, a few hundred years - to learning about it would have the necessary skills to even attempt such a spell without seriously risking death for the recipient.

I just don't see humans learning this spell (maybe the Nine? - in the book it said Ouja was 10,000 years old, and in the story he was throwing magic around like it was nothing, pg 101, but there's no way someone could just casually toss that much magic around and survive very long).  I don't think anyone would spread this spell around even if they did know it.  Could you imagine all the people - powerful people (e.g. sorcerors, kings, assassins...) - who would want to either get their hands on this spell or have it cast for them if they found out about it?  This would be a rare, difficult to perform (come on, four vagaries at Master level!), nearly impossible to create-on-your-own spell.  And while I think the Fey would know it - or at least a select few, who may or may not perform it for others, probably depending on whether they liked the person or thought they were responsible with their sorcery use - I don't think its use would be wide spread.

Also, I have to say I'm kind of enamoured with nsruf's idea for a corruption mechanism for sorcery, anyway.  Except, I think I would make it based on the level of the spell and I'd make it automatic: no resistance roll allowed.  So, if you cast a spell that used level 2 conquer and level 2 summoning (or something), it would cause 3 points (2+1) of automatic corruption upon casting of the spell.  (That way, even if no aging occurred, there would still be a risk and a consequence.)  I really like the mechanism nsruf layed out in page two of "TRoS game mechanics; game worlds other than Weyrth" for dealing with that, and I'd probably add that as an additional consequence of casting.  (I don't really think there's enough of a deterrent against frivolous magic use, and with magic this powerful, I really, really think there should be... especially with an anti-aging spell.  Yes, the magic`s powerful; yes, it's unbalanced; that's fine, but that's why it's so RARE!  Reality couldn't survive widespread use of this kind of power; it would be like everyone on the planet having their own personal nuke...)

Ok, so there`s my two bits and then some.  I eagerly await the firestorm...

;)

[SheWolf]

Sounds reasonable, except that the game even the magic is supposed to feel more "Real" This brings in too much of a D&D feel to the whole mess by allowing a spell that goes against so much known physics. IIRC Einstein said that time is like a river, flowing one way. Now, the spell explanation did well in showing that it doesn't go against that, but it still "feels wrong" to me. *shrug* I dunno, now that i'm posting i find i really don't have an argument other thatn "But the book says you can't DO that!!"

*returns to lurkerdom*

JoAnna

[Adrynian]

Ok, I'll try to answer that.  First, however, let's be clear that we understand the distinction between TIME and AGING.  This spell never actually tries to 'reverse time;' I tried to make that clear, but perhaps it was as clear as mud ;) so I'll try again.  "Time" is the unidirectional flow of the 'time dimension' (notice 'unidirectional' - I'm not trying to reverse the direction of time with this or any other spell) and that is as it should be.  "Aging" is a process that living organisms undergo as they exist and interact with the universe while travelling through "time" (actually, spacetime); it is a purely biological phenomenon - and *that* is what I'm trying to counter with this spell (actually, repair).  (Personally, I think the game designers confused the two terms when they said you couldn't make things younger - of course you can't!  But that's not what I'm trying to do...)

We also use the term "aging" to speak of inanimate objects, and what we generally mean in these cases is that as some object travels through spacetime it undergoes certain chemical processes that change it from one moment to the next.  So, for example, a chunk of iron "ages" when it rusts as it sits outside in the rain and sun and weather.  That is a purely chemical phenomenon - which would also be reversable if one pulled the oxygen atoms apart from the iron atoms and put the iron atoms back into the original crystaline structure with whatever remains of the original piece of iron.  Notice I haven't said a word anywhere in there about 'reversing time,' but rather I spoke more of 'undoing' the *effects* of time's passage (this merely requires energy and the knowledge of how and ability to apply the energy in the most appropriate manner).

So, let's get back to "aging" as it pertains to biological organisms - or at least a relevant tangent thereof.  A biological organism is a complex system (yes, even prokaryote bacteria are extremely complex!) that takes energy from its environment and uses that energy to maintain/sustain itself - its structural and functional integrity.  A complex system 'builds order' where there was none (or less) before.  Funnily enough, this would seem to violate the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, that the universe tends towards increasing entropy (aka disorder or chaos).  However, it doesn't and here's why: even when a complex system (living or not) takes energy from its environment and uses that energy to build order 'within' the system, it comes at the expense of decreased order (or increased entropy, to use the lingo) 'outside' the system.  In fact, as a complex system increases its own order it creates an even greater amount of entropy outside of itself, thus maintaining the 2nd Law - always an increase in entropy.

"What does this mean for aging people?" you ask, and so I shall explain.  "Aging" as a biological phenomenon is, or at least appears to be, a decline in the 'internal order' of the complex system that is a biological organism.  That is, as time passes, the organism undergoes various stresses to its system that damage its structural and functional integrity.  So, for example, wrinkles are in part caused by a breakdown of the intercellular matrix that supports the body's cells and provides shape to the larger organism.  In addition, because a biological organism has its own "software," that is, instruction sets that tell the cells how to behave under given circumstances, the overarching functioning of the system can also change over time.  (It's not quite this simple, but for the sake of the argument, think of it this way: genes switch on and off according to current internal states in combination with various external stimuli, and as different genes become functional or non-functional the behaviour of the cell can change - kind of like a finite state machine for you computer buffs out there.  As you get many cells changing their functioning in concert, you observe an overall change in the functioning of the larger organism - like a person going through puberty or menopause.)  

So, we start our lives as 'fresh' little order making bundles.  I say 'fresh' because we have all the right lengths of telomeres, the system is in its initial stages, ideally there are no toxins that will inhibit the system's functioning, and so on.  As we travel through time, the system maintains, and even increases, its internal order.  We undergo functional changes at the system level - like puberty - and we eventually experience damaging environmental stimuli - like free radicals, too much sunlight, and toxins that inhibit the system's ability to function properly.  "Aging" seems to be the eventual 'wearing out' of the system.  That is, as we build up toxins and free radicals in our system, as our telomeres shorten and the amount of dying cells outnumbers the amount of cells created to replace them, the structural and functional integrity of the complex biological system degrades, and we "age."

Not all of this is necessary, however.  We have a finite telomere length seemingly because as we age there is a greater potential for 'copy errors' the more times a cell divides.  It wouldn't do - from an evolutionary perspective - to have an organism capable of reproducing when it was in danger of passing oncogenes (potentially cancerous genes) on to the next generation; this would reduce the chances of survival of that following generation.  Toxin and free-radical buildup, while seemingly a fact of life, doesn't HAVE to be irreversible, and if removed, this should restore some of the functional capacity of the system.  Additionally, it seems possible to me that a complex system that has undergone systemic changes in its functioning (puberty, menopause, etc.) could be 'switched back' to a previous state of functioning.

I'm not certain of how to do this last bit with a human, but an example at the planet-wide scale is weather.  In either "Chaos," by James Gleick, or "Complexity," by M. Mitchell Waldrop, there's an example of how our weather system seems to have two 'stable states,' one being 'normal' weather as we understand it and are currently experiencing it, and the other being 'ice age.'  Extreme jolts to a complex system can cause it to switch between stable states (i.e. switch between a system's 'strange attractors').  Personally, I think we are providing just that kind of jolt to our weather system with global warming, and as a result I expect we'll probably throw the whole planet back into an ice age (probably sooner than it would otherwise occur, though I doubt anytime soon in human time-scales).  This is a natural feature of our planet's weather patterns: long periods of ice age punctuated by short bursts of warming.

Hmm, back onto the topic of the biolgical system 'wearing out.'  I don't mean this in the sense of a human-built machine, where a part of the machine gets damaged and either the part gets replaced or the whole machine gets scrapped.  What I mean is the system is unable to perform at a level necessary to repair itself - its structure and functioning - and thus continue to exist.  So, as toxins build up and telomeres shorten, cells die and the intercellular matrix breaks down, etc. and the system can no longer function at a level necessary to repair all the damage, so we wrinkle and we aren't as active as before, and eventually we die.  If one can sustain or restore an organism's functional capacity, it could continue to repair itself and thereby restore its structure and continue to exist.  Personally, I don't think the amount of time you've lived is a very good indicator of how 'old' your body is.  I think how hard your life has been is a much better indicator (e.g. how much stress, toxins, poor nutrition, poor sleep, etc. you've experienced/been exposed to).  I've known twenty-year olds who looked like they were fourty and I've met sixty-year olds who looked like they weren't even fourty.  

What I'm saying is, this spell doesn't 'reverse time,' but rather it repairs the damage your body has suffered and restores it to a greater structural and functional integrity, effectively making you look and feel 'younger.'  It repairs the *effects* of the "aging" process, thus extending your lifespan, but it never actually 'reverses time.'

I know that was long, but I hope it cleared a few things up for people.

Adrynian

<*Edit*  Nothing about this is counter to 'known physics.'  If you're curious about complexity theory, read the two books I mentioned above, and if you're curious about how it pertains to living organisms, you can find some interesting theories in "The Web of Life," by Fritjof Capra.>

[Bob McNamee]

One caveat I would put on the spell  as GM is that you can never do the spell on yourself.

If I allowed it at all, I would also put in the complication that a failed roll by the spellcaster of this spell ages them (possibly even caster and recipient) by as much aging as the spell was meant to remove.

But that's because I'm not sure I would ever allow it.

Neat spell though...not more unrealistic than any one that allows you to reverse the damage of any other form of injury, since you've covered the areas needed to percieve and repair.

My problem with it is merely the undermining of one of magic's 'prices'. That's why I'd put in more restricitons before allowing in my games, just to make it have some real risk to deter some from trying it.

Well designed spell!

[Rick]

:)

[Adrynian]

I agree, Bob.  I actually think the magic system in TROS is waaay too easy to acquire and learn and progress in.  The designers do say it's rare, but personally, I'd make sorcery a lot more difficult to learn and progress with if I ever even allowed a PC to have it.  This is not a spell I ever expect humans to have, nor is it something I think most Fey would even be able to cast.  I think the few who *could* cast it would be very hesitant to do so - and most careful when they did - and I like the idea of not being able to cast it on yourself.  Since the Fey are effectively immortal anyway, they would rarely have need of such a spell so long as they were careful with their magic - and I don't expect the careless ones would be granted much sympathy from someone asked to risk their life to grant the careless a reprieve from old age (much more likely the foolish would be left as elderly for a few hundred years to see if they can learn some self-restraint).

I didn't actually design this spell to undermine the magic system of TROS; I designed it because I couldn't see the Fey just laying down and dying as they aged from doing something as natural to them as breathing.  The way I see it, this spell is probably a secret of theirs, and one kept for only those considered 'worthy' - however they measure that - or for those whose time 'is not yet up' - however they determine that - but who may have aged prematurely from their magic.  As I mentioned in a previous post, I might also include it in an explanation of how their birth rate has dropped so dramatically - from them using the spell more frequently to restore those aged in the great battles of the past.

I definitely don't take this spell frivolously, nor do I think aging is 'enough' of a deterrant from casual magic use (see post about corruption), nor do I think being able to acquire Master level in four vagaries should be easy by any stretch of the imagination.  I think this spell, as with any magic really, should be rare, difficult to perform, and have grave consequences should everything not go as planned.  Having said that, I also like how versatile and powerful the magic of this world is and I look forward to incorporating it into my games.

Adrynian

[Tash]

Adrynian:  Your earlier post is probably the best description I've ever heard of the defination of aging from a biological standpoint (at least one using layman's terms).  Its clear you are knowledgable on the subject, are you a doctor or biologist of some kind?

Personally I'm all for it as both a player and a Seneschal.  I honestly have trouble conceiving of a sorceror as someone younger than a few hundred years, because I think it should take one at least a full lifetime to master even the smallest sorcery...but then again I'm picturing sorcerors simillar to Gandalf and the Ten Who Were Taken from the Black Company novels.  As you said the book references one of the nine as being 10,000 years old...clearly he had some trick up his sleeve to keep his body together that long.  I thought long and hard about how he might have pulled that off but could think of nothing other than dramatic liscense.

Of course I'm not real good at making up spells using TRoS...it took a friend pointing out that sculpture can do more than just rearrange matter for me to figure out how the sorceror in the story on pg 91 started that inn on fire....

[Adrynian]

My girlfriend says I'm a geek with too much time on his hands who should be studying instead - but she loves me anyways.  ;)  Seriously though, I'm a student at Simon Fraser University in Cognitive Science and Biology with an avid interest in complexity theory.  (Hardly ringing qualifications for someone writing a treatise on aging, I know, but it's something I've been thinking and learning about for several years now.)  

Actually, despite sounding confident about the theory I propose above, I don't *know* that it's the whole story - in fact, I'm pretty sure it's not - but that's because *noone*knows* the whole story, not even the 'experts' in the field.  This was just a reasonable explanation that supports my desire to see an anti-aging spell for the Fey.  For those who are interested, Scientific American has a Special Edition out this month on aging, in which they discuss the likely causes of aging and some potential technologies to counter it - personally, I'm looking forward to nanotechnology's potentials in that regard (many years off), but I'm not so keen on all the very bad things that could come with it (which is, however, another thread entirely).

As for magic, I LOVE MAGIC!!!  Really, I always have!  And, I've always been peeved with DnD because the magic system is such crap (there's more to complain about than that, but my preferred character in any RPG is a mage, so that's my biggest beef, bar none).  I love magic in any story, and I've always been partial to fantasy novels: Lord of the Rings, Wheel of Time, Magician (by Raymond Feist), Recluse (by L.E. Modesitt), Tad Williams' "Memory and Sorrow" - I think that's what it's called, Lloyd Alexander's books, C.J. Cherryh's novels (fantasy and scifi - she's great!), C.S. Friedman wrote some good stuff, Terry Pratchett, George R. Martin, Steven Erikson, J.V. Jones, ahhh!!!  The list goes on and I know I'm leaving out some really good ones!

Anyway, it's no surprise to me that I would head straight for the magic system of any RPG, pick apart the biggest flaws I can find and try and remake it into something "better" in any way I thought it needed it; that's just the way I am.  I really think that TROS needs this spell (it's not for everyone, since I realize some will want to keep the magic system as it is) because I agree with you: I want long lived sorcerors like Gandalf, or the elves of Rivendell, or The Nine Who Were Taken, or the Prince of Darkness in Steven Erikson's novels, or the druids in the Recluse novels, or Pug and the elves in Feist's novels because that's what I love and what I've always loved and what I really want to play.  I also really like the idea of magic being this rare and mysterious and powerful force that alters people's lives in strange, often unexpected ways.

Adrynian

[Tash]

My older brother is a professor of Cognitive Neurosciences at University of Lethbridge in Alberta.  Its a fascinating topic that I just try and keep up with him on when we see each other.

Oh, and its the TEN who were taken: Limper, Howler, Shapeshifter, Moonbiter, Stormbringer, The Hanged Man, The Faceless Man, Bonegnasher, Nighcrawler, and of course Soulcatcher.

Eight more are added to the roster later by The Lady, though only Whisper, Feather and Journey ever play any real roles in the stories.

[Adrynian]

Yeah, I really like CogSci; it's really fascinating stuff!  I got into it initially because I became really interested in Chaos and Complexity theories, and I saw a lot of potential for tie-ins to that in CogSci... I'm not totally convinced of that anymore, but I still find it really interesting so I continue to study it.  I do still think there are a lot of connections between intelligence in general and complexity theory since all intelligent beings that we know of so far are biological organisms that function as complex systems, and intelligence seems to emerge out of that functioning somehow...  I'm totally captivated by it all and I want to learn as much about it as I can and maybe even make some contributions to the field if I can... so long as they don't get used by the military.

Oh, sorry about the mistake :)  I have read the first few books in the "Black Company" series and really liked them.  I have a few more that I plan to read, but I sort of fell out of reading it after the company practically fell apart and the remains decided to travel "back to their roots."  I'm sure I'll pick it up again as I did find it to be a good read, but for now I've sort of lost interest in the series because I couldn't really see where it was going and I didn't have that much time to read with my studying and all.  Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series is, I think, the next one I'll catch up on; it's sort of similar and I found the first book to be incredibly intriguing so I can't wait until I have a chance to read the next one.

Adrynian

[Tash]

The two "Books of the South" and "The Glitering Stones" series is great.  I'm on the 2nd to last one now.  The feel of the series changes a bunch but some questions that you have been asking all along are finally answered.

The only book I didn't like was "The Silver Spike", and that was mainly because Cook decided to go an kill off Raven (possibly the coolest character in the series) in a rather silly manner, without even attmepting to resolve or answer the questions about his background and family.

Still the rest of them are a good read and I highly recomend picking them all up.

As for the CogSci stuff if you feel like PMing me your email addres I'll send it to my brother, like I said he has his PhD in CogSci from UBC Vancouver and teaches it at U Lethbridge.  His specific area of expertise has to do with awareness, perception and sensory system, i.e. how do we go from raw sensor data to comprehension of an event.  

He might be able to point you towards some ways you could study and possibly be involved in the field that don't have millitary applications.