lack of CRPG topics

[IdentityCrisis]

New here.  I'm very impressed with the forums, there seems to be an incredible amount of thought and work on RPG theory consolidated here.  However, I note that it mostly seems to pertain to table-top games, with relatively little thought given to CRPG theory.  Is there any site similair to this (with a high signal-to-noise ratio) on single player CRPG theory out there?

[Vaxalon]

Are you talking about theory regarding PLAYING CRPG's (such as MMORPGs where something approaching real roleplaying is possible) or are you talking about writing them?

[Jasper]

Either way, this isn't the site for that (unless it also ties into a tabletop game).  If anyone knows of some, which I don't, maybe they can send you the link.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

IC, welcome to the Forge!

Jasper and Fred, frankly, you're not helping much. Please back off a little, 'cause the Forge has a lot to offer about this topic, if indirectly.

IC, at the top of the page, there's a Search feature. It's not Google, mind you, so you have to be patient with it, but if you run a search on the term "CRPG" without specifying anything else, you'll get four pages of thread links. Most of them probably won't help, but just going by thread titles alone, you'll get some cool discussions - and some of them include links to mailing lists or websites in which CRPGs get discussed in high-powered ways.

Good luck! Let me know if you need further help with the search.

Best,
Ron

[Vaxalon]

Actually, I was asking because either of the topics I was asking about could find useful material on the Forge, and I was going to make suggestions based on the answer.  Please don't be so quick to jump down my throat, Ron.

[IdentityCrisis]

Vaxalon: I specified single-player games; MMO games don't interest me.  And I was more interested in the design aspects, although both interest me.  Links for either would be appreciated.



Jasper: Given all the discussion on RPGs in general, I' would have expected CRPG theory to have its own forum.  The lack of discussion on it at all is somewhat surprising.  Is CRPG discussion generally discouraged here, or is there just not much interest?



Ron Edwards: Thanks for the defense, but it's okay.  Their questions/comments are valid, and even if they had been giving offense I've had to grow a rather thick skin in my lifetime.

I already did the search, and it was getting only 4 pages of hits that prompted me to ask the question in the first place.

[Eero Tuovinen]

I guess that there's just not that much interest. I'd guess that most of us don't see CRPGs as roleplaying games at all, so although we might play them, they just aren't something that would get discussed. Most multiplayer designers, on the other hand, have clear preferences in the matter - they are wedded to transferring the single player culture to multiplayer platform, not to designing anything which'd actually support roleplaying. They don't discuss their work here because we don't offer them anything they'd know how to use.

Now, I'm not against CRPGs. To the contrary, they're my favourite kind of computer adventure game, and generally the type of computer game I play most. ADOM is a great game for example. I say this to make it clear that I have no bias against CRPGs.

That said, in what way would you think that any kind of single player computer game could be said to be a roleplaying game? And don't cite the fact that they're called computer roleplaying games - that's a historical coincidence, really these games have all the qualities of computer adventure games in general, and none of the particular qualities of a roleplaying game. Multiplayer games can be defended somewhat because the players can create imaginary social forms, but single player games don't even have that. They're just adventure games with qualitative statistics, just as much roleplaying games as Monkey Island.

So, I'd say that not having a specific forum for computer games is appropriate. If somebody posits a theory under which they can be viewed as roleplaying games, this could conseivably change, but as of now I see no reason. Doesn't mean that discussing these kinds of games would be out of bounds - that's ultimately a matter for Ron to decide, probably for each forum separately.

[Eero Tuovinen]

I guess that there's just not that much interest. I'd guess that most of us don't see CRPGs as roleplaying games at all, so although we might play them, they just aren't something that would get discussed. Most multiplayer designers, on the other hand, have clear preferences in the matter - they are wedded to transferring the single player culture to multiplayer platform, not to designing anything which'd actually support roleplaying. They don't discuss their work here because we don't offer them anything they'd know how to use.

Now, I'm not against CRPGs. To the contrary, they're my favourite kind of computer adventure game, and generally the type of computer game I play most. ADOM is a great game for example. I say this to make it clear that I have no bias against CRPGs.

That said, in what way would you think that any kind of single player computer game could be said to be a roleplaying game? And don't cite the fact that they're called computer roleplaying games - that's a historical coincidence, really these games have all the qualities of computer adventure games in general, and none of the particular qualities of a roleplaying game. Multiplayer games can be defended somewhat because the players can create imaginary social forms, but single player games don't even have that. They're just adventure games with qualitative statistics, just as much roleplaying games as Monkey Island.

So, I'd say that not having a specific forum for computer games is appropriate. If somebody posits a theory under which they can be viewed as roleplaying games, this could conseivably change, but as of now I see no reason. Doesn't mean that discussing these kinds of games would be out of bounds - that's ultimately a matter for Ron to decide, probably for each forum separately.

[Jasper]

I can't say whether there's interest or not in general, but personally I've always been very itnerested in CRPG (and other comptuer game) design, and have been involved in those circles online.  But for me, they're almost entirely different animals, with only a few superficial similarities.  I imagine others may feel the same way.  So there's no specific reason why the Forge needs to have a CRPG discussion forum -- and if it came up, I think I'd be against it: there's no reason to be everything to everyone here.  

If you go to kanga.nu, there's a mailing list for the development of MMORPGS I know of. And while I know you're not interested in those per se, a lot of common issues to get raised, and all of the industry leaders hang out there.

[IdentityCrisis]

That said, in what way would you think that any kind of single player computer game could be said to be a roleplaying game? And don't cite the fact that they're called computer roleplaying games - that's a historical coincidence, really these games have all the qualities of computer adventure games in general, and none of the particular qualities of a roleplaying game. Multiplayer games can be defended somewhat because the players can create imaginary social forms, but single player games don't even have that. They're just adventure games with qualitative statistics, just as much roleplaying games as Monkey Island.

Actually, I agree with you.  Aside from a relatively few games like Fallout, I don't consider CRPGs to be true role-playing games.  Hence my surprise at the lack of CRPG discussion here; if you guys are so heavy into RPG theory and some of you play (and even write) CRPGs, why isn't there more interest here in figuring out how to turn them into true role-playing games?

So, I'd say that not having a specific forum for computer games is appropriate. If somebody posits a theory under which they can be viewed as roleplaying games, this could conseivably change, but as of now I see no reason.

Not on reasons to view the existing ones as RPGs, but on how to create new ones that *are* RPGs.  I have a couple of loose ideas on the subject.

Doesn't mean that discussing these kinds of games would be out of bounds - that's ultimately a matter for Ron to decide, probably for each forum separately.

Ron Edwards is the guy in charge here, then?

[LordSmerf]

Ron is pretty much the moderator of the forums here...  So i guess he is in charge as much as anyone can said to be in charge here.

Your question does raise an interesting question in my own mind: How do you design a game that develops Shared Imaginitive Space without dynamic interaction?  A way to successfully do that would seem to be the first step to making CRPS more like RPGs...

Thomas

[Vaxalon]

Well, one way is to use a SIS that's already pretty well shared outside the RPG universe.

Knights of the Old Republic plays very heavily on the themes already established in the Star Wars universe.

[Andrew Morris]

Hence my surprise at the lack of CRPG discussion here; if you guys are so heavy into RPG theory and some of you play (and even write) CRPGs, why isn't there more interest here in figuring out how to turn them into true role-playing games?

I do enjoy playing CRPGs, personally. I also enjoy playing Solitaire on my computer. I wouldn't expect to see discussions on the Forge as to how to make either of those activities more like table-top RPGs. They are simply different activities. Playing RPGs is an inherently social activity, while playing (single-player) computer games is no more social than watching a movie by yourself. Anyway, that's my take on it.

[LordSmerf]

I do enjoy playing CRPGs, personally. I also enjoy playing Solitaire on my computer. I wouldn't expect to see discussions on the Forge as to how to make either of those activities more like table-top RPGs. They are simply different activities. Playing RPGs is an inherently social activity, while playing (single-player) computer games is no more social than watching a movie by yourself. Anyway, that's my take on it.

Excellent point, Role Playing does seem to be necessarily a social activity.  That raises an interesting question:

Would it be possible/desirable to design a CRPG that somehow was not a solitary activity?  One that requires multiple players in physical (or not) proximity...

Thomas

[Andrew Martin]

Would it be possible/desirable to design a CRPG that somehow was not a solitary activity?  One that requires multiple players in physical (or not) proximity...

Wouldn't that just be another name for (role)Play by Mail (PBM), (role)Play by Email (PBeM) or roleplaying on message boards or Wiki? These systems are roughly equivalent to having a private bulleting board and pinning written messages on it, to be read by others and responded to by more written messages.