Fast but realistic firearms RPG-system?

[Vaxalon]

...the part I'd like to be "realistic" is the whole combat before the hit is taken...

You still haven't told us what you mean by realistic?

Do you want to be able to believe, at the table, that the things YOU know about modern combat are handled by mechanics?  That' SEEMS to be what you're asking for... I call that Versimilitude.

Do you want the mechanics to support a vision of the gameworld that fits with things like action movies or adventure books?  That's another thing entirely, and I don't have a good word for it... I'm sure there's a Forger word for it, though.

[Tom B]

I'll chime in with a recommendation for CORPS.  It's been our system of choice for modern and SF campaigns for over 10 years.  The few times I've gone to a firing range, I usually ended up discussing CORPS with a friend, and it seemed to reality-check very well when dealing with firearms.

(You can even buy the PDF version for only $10.)

Tom B.

[M. J. Young]

The system sounds like it's worth testing. Of course, if you want to tell me more about it...here's what I'd like to know:

- Is there combat rounds/turns? How long?
- For firearms, what kind of rules are there for shooting at different ranges, recoil, shooting at a  prone character and while being prone, shooting while moving, etc?

There's a standard one minute combat round. It covers all combat in any milieu, and attack rates are based on the number of times that an ordinary amateur user can aim and fire the weapon in a minute, assuming no limit on ammunition. (A faster fire rate with short ammo can impact ratio of shots between sides.) Incredibly skilled users with weapons can nine times that rate.

All ranged weapons are given five range categories. The referee assigns these based on his perceptions of the specific weapon.

[*]Point blank is described as sticking the barrel in the target's ribs and pulling the trigger; it is rarely more than ten feet, and always has that feeling of "can't miss at this range". It is bonused 20%. Weapons that combine martial and missile functions (e.g., knives) do not have a point blank category.[*]Short range is the unmodified range in combat. It is described as that range at which there would be no benefit gained from practice against ordinary sized targets.[*]Medium range takes a 10% penalty in combat situations. It is described as the range at which the user ordinarily practices target shooting.[*]Long range is the normal maximum range for the practical use of the weapon. It takes a 25% penalty.[*]Extreme range is any effort to hit a target beyond the normal maximum range of the weapon. It takes the 25% penalty for long range, plus a 1% penalty for every 1% of the weapon's normal maximum range beyond that maximum range. It also takes a damage category penalty for exceeding maximum range, and another each time maximum range is exceeded (that is, at 201% of the weapon's normal maximum range, there is a 126% penalty on the chance to hit, and the weapon's effective damage is reduced two categories). Penalties may be offset by bonuses, such as target size.[/list:u]
Recoil is not handled directly. It is assumed to be part of the fire rate, in that an amateur will be slower because he must compensate for recoil while a professional will already be compensating (and so doubles the fire rate of the amateur). If it were particularly powerful, there are a number of ways it could be reflected in the system.

Prone position is treated as a target size adjustment; it's recognized that the main reason for shooting from prone position is to reduce the target area available to the opponent. Shooting from prone position is not specifically treated, but the use of equipment such as a tripod to steady a weapon bonuses the chance of success.

There are only a few factors involving movement; some are treated as skills.

[*]The impact of movement on aim creates a penalty if there is a relative difference of at least ten miles per hour between shooter and target.[*]Characters can learn defensive skills such as evasive tumbling and dodging techniques which can create penalties against an opponent's chance to hit. The game is very flexible in this regard; it is quite possible to devise skills in driving or flying that are geared to reducing the enemy's chance to hit. Driving or flying straight only does so to the degree that the relative movement is at least ten miles per hour (laterally)--a car driving straight at you at ninety miles per hour is not considered a moving target.[*]There is a strike and run rule specifically covered, by which an attacker takes a penalty on a chance to hit in order to get a bonus on a chance to escape.[*]There is a 10% penalty for attacking while in pursuit, assuming the attacker has to maintain the pursuit course himself. This includes running, driving, flying, or any other form of pursuit. It does not apply to someone else in the vehicle who can focus entirely on attacking.[/list:u]There is an incredible flexibility within the game, in that a creative player can make just about any skill matter in combat if he wishes to do so. I've had characters perfect such techniques as firing guns out of a forward flip or tossing a weapon to the left hand and firing it while drawing another with the right. It's difficult to say "the game doesn't cover that"; generally, the mechanics are in place for just about anything you can dream up.

Any more questions?

--M. J. Young

[jone]

Thank you M. J. Young. No more question at this moment. I have to consider taking a closer look at your book.

About CORPS.
Does anyone get annoyed by having only 5 different succeeding persentages?

9 - 90&
7 - 70%
5 - 50%
3 - 30%
1 - 10%

This seems pretty few to me, as I'm used to D20 or D100 systems. And even though this is a D10 system, it ignores half of the D10 results (2,4,6,8,0).. so it's more like a "D5" system.

What do you think about that?

[DevP]

Hey jone,

As for the probability, I never had a problem with it. This was on of those "concessions" to what you'd expect from reality (coarse resolution) in favor of Greg's decisions about better gameplay (not bothering with d%). Mitigating this seemling coarse range is that these reflect a relatively narrow numerical range; many tasks in the system are autosuccesses or autofailures, and for this reason CORPS is sometimes called semidiceless. I gotta say, the resolution system is one of the speediest for a game as complex as that.

Okay, secondly, I *would* like to go into Fred's pointed question, since aside from "Our Favorite Game" and such, there's an interesting question here:

...the part I'd like to be "realistic" is the whole combat before the hit is taken...

You still haven't told us what you mean by realistic?

Do you want to be able to believe, at the table, that the things YOU know about modern combat are handled by mechanics?...

So, let's just put aside "realism" as a criteria, and instead try to unpack what that word means to you. When you imagine an ideal "realistic" ruleset, which encourages "realistic" play (both realistic choices by players and realistic outcomes), what are you in fact hoping for? If you care primarily about combat fitting this vision of realism, then we can restrict this problem just to combat.

So: how do you want your players to react to this world? How do you want their characters to act? What happens when they act? What examples (from our world, from popular media/literature, from whatever) make up your vision of a real-world.

Here are three different examples of the kind of answers that would help nail down your wants of "reality":

Realism 1: Pain. When I mean realism, I mean that bad choices, or even good ones, incur unfixable and unforgiving consequences. If combat comes up, probably more in line with "If you're shot roll a d6; you die on anything but a 1."

Realism 2: Tactics. I want to encourage planning and tactics, since from what I've read, combat is all about the higher-ground, better weapons, etc. So, my realistic combat is about comparing each side's advantages. Winners roll 1d6 each, losers roll xd6 where x is the number of advantages the winners have over them, and the player dies on any 1s.

Okay, now where do you find yourself?

[Tom B]

About CORPS.
Does anyone get annoyed by having only 5 different succeeding persentages?

9 - 90&
7 - 70%
5 - 50%
3 - 30%
1 - 10%

This seems pretty few to me, as I'm used to D20 or D100 systems. And even though this is a D10 system, it ignores half of the D10 results (2,4,6,8,0).. so it's more like a "D5" system.

What do you think about that?

Actually, that's one of the things we like the best about it.  It's very easy to remember and apply, and we always use the 'open-ended' option, so you always have the longshot chance of success.

"9,7,5,3,1" --quick and easy, and we've never suffered from a lack of crunchiness...

[jone]

Ok.


Well, I'm not searching for super-realism here...the playability is priority number one.

But I want bullets to be deadly (unlike in tw:2k), but still allow players to survive some of the hits (to keep up the playability of the game).

And since I want bullets to hurt, I also want the actual firefight to be detailed enough. In Tw2k, you can fire 50 rounds with a machine gun, in a sinle turn before any of the elite soldiers you are shooting at can even think about dodging or dropping prone.

Now I've got my hands in CORPS core book and read through some parts of the game. It seems good, but it seems somewhat complicated too (1s turns, initiative calculation etc).

So, is it complicated? Or/and is it slow? How difficult/slow is it to solve a close quarter firefight with 10 persons engaged in it (of which only 3 or 4 are player characters and rest NPCs)? Will a situtation like that kill the GM?

-

Btw, I took a look at Friday Night Firefight combat system. It seems pretty fast (!) and realistic (not as realistic as CORPS) too. But I only have the combat system, no character generation (Skills, etc) included. Any opinions on this one?

Sorry for the huge number of questions I once again spammed here :)

[jerry]

Well, I'm not searching for super-realism here...the playability is priority number one.

This is what I did for Men & Supermen (which is not in any sense realistic):

1. Skills are rolled against a specific number calculated from the character's abilities.

2. Characters have a "bonus pool" which can be pulled out of to increase the target number (players generally must roll low).

3. All skill rolls have a 'quality' which is the amount the die roll is below than the target number. The quality can be used to increase various effects.

3. In combat, some of those effects are the damage done, bonuses to hit, and the number of targets affected. (Thus, for example, a combat roll can be successful but if the attacker did not allocate enough quality to overcome the opponent's dodge the attack still did not hit.)

4. So for automatic weapons, rather than increase the number of die rolls, additional bullets increase the bonus pool. The attacker's player can then allocate the additional quality to either be more likely to hit (spraying a wide area), or attempt to hit multiple targets, or focus more damage to a single target (but be more likely to miss that target) or some combination in between.

I control the deadliness of automatic weapons (and any weapon that exceeds normal variations) by damping how the bonus pool affects the skill's target number.

I think, when looking at some aspect of a potential game that is going to be complicated, it helps to think about how the solution to that one problem will also assist in other complicated parts of the game.

Jerry

[DevP]

But I want bullets to be deadly (unlike in tw:2k), but still allow players to survive some of the hits (to keep up the playability of the game).
...
And since I want bullets to hurt, I also want the actual firefight to be detailed enough. In Tw2k, you can fire 50 rounds with a machine gun, in a single turn before any of the elite soldiers you are shooting at can even think about dodging or dropping prone.

Okay, these kind of feel like you want tactics to matter (i.e. players have a reason to not just stand in the middle of the firefight and fire, enemies have actual means of dealing with unintelligent attacks), but you don't to reduce this to a wargame.

How about just putting death off the table, really? Unless there's something like a rocket-launcher or otherwise explosive, let them survive a bad fight scenario. Any levels of impariment at all will still put the players in very bad straits in future sessions (i.e. they had an incentive to play smarter), but they're still around to act on that and even try being heroic.

For your CORPS questions, you could try asking other folks at its mailing-list, but I'd guess that you can limit some things - for example, have people declare their entire move as a combo ahead of time, rather than stepping through the 1 second in great detail (and this will somewhat boil down to 1 action per turn), or even just go for randomize initiative if that feels better. For a complex fight, don't worry about optimizing/maximizing the play of the 10 mooks (and make judicious use of the autokill rules).

[jone]

Thanks for your answers again. I have decided not to use COPRS, as it is somewhat too slow and complicated (especially for GM who has to deal with all the NPCs).

Since people seem to be doing the "just throwing things out there" thing, I recommend you check out Friday Night Firefight, the combat system for Cyberpunk 2013 and 2020. It is extremely playable, and very realistic in terms of providing a fear of guns, nastiness of injuries, and resolution between, say, a sniper rifle and a saturday night special.

I decided to try this one out and it seems pretty good actually. Both sipmle but still pretty realistic. I have borrowed the book "Firday Night Firefight", but it still lacks the character generation rules...so seems like I have to get Cyberpunk too.


[/quote]

[jone]

I checked out Cyberpunk 2013 and Cyberpunk 2020.
The combat system (Friday Night Firefight) looks nice in Cp2013...: about 3.2s combat rounds divided in 3 phases, rules for burst and automatic fire, different hit locations (arms, head, torso, legs) but not too specific, deadly weapons, simple system. The only problem was the lack of examples in the rules...some parts weren't explained well enough (melee combat, for example).

Then I decided to take a look at Cp2020's combat system, as it is a second edition of Cyberpunk. Melee combat was explained well, that's good...even different martial arts schools were listed etc. But, for some reason this new edition of FNFF is much simpler than FNFF rules in Cp2013. The biggest change was in combat rules, which now last 3s and are not divided to phases. I liked the complexity of Cp2013 FNFF because it was more realistic but still far more simpler than f.ex. CORPS combat.

So, now it very much seems like I need to create some kind of a combination of these two CP FNFF combat rules. Gaahhh, more work...I hope it's worth it.

[cheeplives]

I would suggest Godlike (One Roll Engine). It's fast, but robust. The ORE (One Roll Engine) has Initative, To-hit, Location, and Damage all in a single roll (for non-combat you have Quality and Speed in a single roll).

Being a WW2 based game, it also has great rules for burst fire as well as surpression fire. The area effect, grenade, and other rules are also very nice. Plus, they have a lot of optional rules like Detailed Hit Locations (the basic system has basic hit locations encoded in the roll, the detailed system adds more detail still using the single roll) or Killing Disposition (determining if a group of NPCs would actually shoot to kill in a combat situation), most of which are availble for free from their web site.

The game is designed to be a gritty-superhero game, but can be played just fine without the supers aspect. I highly recommend this game for ease of play balanced against a somewhat "realistic" approach (i.e. you get shot, you're hurting... don't get shot...) to combat.

[smokewolf]

Try The Swing. It's a game system I developed and run it as a highly realistic combat system (the core game has magick in it, but it really is fun to ignore it and just fight it out sometimes and the next product we are working on will do just that all the combat and no fluff).

Anyways here are some highlights:

Here is the basic flow of a given combat round [10 Second Combat Rounds]:
1. Pick a Combat Mode
 a. Choose from Focused, Aware and Alert
 b. These modes will determine what Actions and Reactions a character can perform   
2. Everyone divides their Combat Points into two categories
 a. Action Points - AP (used to take actions)
 b. Reaction Action Points - RAP (used to react to another actions)
 c. Any number of points from their Combat Points can be set aside to either category. But once set aside they cannot be regained until the next turn's allocation stage
 d. Everyone declares their first move (before initiative rolls)
3. Initiative
 a. Roll Perception Check (just the dice in Perception)
 b. Ties going to those who have higher Perception die codes, if they have the same die code – highest Intuition, then Dexterity, then Intelligence, Wits, Attitude, Strength and finally Charisma
4. The character who won initiative acts first
 a. If their first maneuver is now compromised by the initiative results, the player can
   i. Continue with action and hope all works out
   ii. Spend two Combat Points to negate your first action (not including those APs for the action itself)
 b. Each character spends each of his actions points.
 c. Any actions points not spent are ignored until next round.
5. Damage is applied, if any, immediately
6. Then the character with the next highest initiative acts, then the next and so on.


Combat Mode
An individual can only act against or react to those events that transpire in their chosen Combat Mode's Area. A person can change modes only at the beginning of turns.
Characters cannot act or react to any rear events or events outside of their combat mode. Once a character has been attacked, successful or unsuccessful, and the character changes facing, the character may then act/react to events that were previously outside of their Combat Mode, as they are now within their Combat Mode.
If a character forgot to list a combat mode for the round, or for instances where the combat mode has not been chosen yet, assume the characters are in Alert Mode.
Focused – You are focused on a task or on an individual. Your attention is focused to just that area directly in front of your vision. Character may only make actions/reactions against those targets in the focused zone. Actions and Reactions receive a +2 step bonus.
Aware – You are at normal perceptive levels. You are aware of both your immediate frontage and your periphery. Character may make actions/reactions against those targets in both the focused zone and the aware zones only. Actions and Reactions receive a +1 step bonus.
Alert – You are on a defensive guard, more a paranoid stance than anything. Your head keeps moving from side to side keeping tabs on all those around you (except in you rear). Character may make actions/reactions against those targets from any zone except the rear zone. Actions and Reactions receive no bonus.


Initiative
Who performs their actions First? Second? Last? This is where Initiative comes into play. The Swing uses a Secret Initiative System. In real life you do not always know who has the upper hand, you therefore have to base your actions off of what you think of the situation will be. This is how Initiative works in The Swing.
First, everyone divides up their available Combat Points into Action and Reaction Points. Then every one must declare their first action, with a minimum of 1 AP cost. This action has to include an expenditure of APs, it can not be a free action (such as, I scan my immediate area or I look at my watch, in order to save APs). Then everyone rolls their Perception Die Code to determine the order of combat.
I. Roll your Perception Die Code only
II. The character with the highest total goes first, lowest total goes last.
III. In the case of a tie, the character who has the higher Perception die codes acts, if they have the same die code – highest Intuition, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wits, Attitude, Strength and finally Charisma.
A character must perform their 1st action (how else would we see those individuals sticking their heads out and end up getting shot at). A character might be able to alter their course of action. In order to cancel the action, a character must spend 2 Combat Points (these can come from any combination of Action and Reaction Points).  The action is canceled and the character has lost the APs set aside for the action (in addition to the 2 Combat Points cost for cancellation).
A character's first action must take place even before a dodge may be performed. Therefore, cancellation is a must for any character that is acted upon before their initiative has begun and wishes to dodge another's action. The character can opt not to cancel their action, however, and forgo the dodge.


Here are examples of how some of the mechanics work:

Burst Mode
Burst Mode is where the weapon is fired in 3 or 2 Round Bursts. Because Burst Mode essentially relies on one bullet missing a little to the left of the target and one bullet to miss a little to the right of the target so that one bullet may hit the target, the attacker may not aim while in burst mode.

Spread Patterns
Both an advantage and a disadvantage, automatic weapons fire tends to fly all over the area. As an advantage, you will be able hit multiple targets with just one pull of the trigger. The disadvantage of this is that sometimes those targets might be your own team.

Other things we consider:
Buckshot spread, supported fire, psychological effects, knockdown, full auto fire, 'walking the target', reading weapons, etc.


Unique things we do...

Dodge [Reaction Only]
When a target dodges or evades, they are actively seeking shelter from an attack. Without shelter from an attack the dodge is harder to perform. Shelter is defined as an object or objects such that the target can use to shield the attack with. Common shelter items are doors, walls, crates, tables and holes (must provide at least 50% cover).  
The dodge is good for a single attack from any one attacker against a character during that action phase. Meaning as soon as the attacker's action is over, the next action will require the target to dodge again. However, the target should now be behind cover, unless they dodged without shelter.

Aimed / Called Shots
When a character takes the time to fire at a target to guarantee that his shot will hit the target, then this becomes an aimed shot. When making an aimed shot the character not only chooses a target, but chooses the hit location that they are aiming at.


Weapons are deadly in The Swing. A shotgun to, well just about anywhere, will kill. No walking away from that. I made the weapons so they reflect a more realistic way of damage and death. Being shot is a very serious action in this game and there is no such thing as, "well his gun only does 1 wound and I think I can take it". Wound effects, even the smallest one, can make or break a combat session.


On top of all this, you may be wondering about the number crounching. Well the first few games might seem overwelling because I have covered tons of possibilies and options, but after about 3 session we have found that most people can follow along real easy. We are able to have big combat sessions of about 8 people now in about 1-2 hours total from start to finish, 3 if you take your time.

The difficulty system moves in steps of 4 (4, 8, 12, 16, 20 up to 44), but everything is listed as a -1 or +1 step with normal difficulty of 16. So a -1 step penaly would be end up being a 20, or a +3 step bonus would be a 4.

[smokewolf]

BTW, blantant plug here....

I am running a monthly special for The Swing. Get the pdf bundle for only $10 (regularly $14.95) and get two chances to win a print copy of The Reality Guide. But this is only until Oct. 31st. Get it at RPGNOW @ http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=3013

[GreedIsGod]

Just as a note of someone who is experienced with real firearms and their actual effects (as opposed to some game designer basing his opinions on some other game, as seems to be common) pistols are not very lethal and don't have a ton of 'stopping power' against a determined human being.  Bleeding out, CNS and heart-hits are the only way that pistols actually put people down, they have no jellying-tissue and shockwave effect of the rifle round.  So if you want 'realistic' then hit-points just aren't going to cut it - handguns stop many people they shoot, handguns kill very few people they shoot.  Rifles of .30+ tend to stop, kill and/or horribly maim people.
I could shoot an average person 4 or 5 times with a .357 magnum and he could expect to live and may not even have any permanent damage, whereas one shot from my Mauser 98 could very well collapse your lung or blow a limb off.