Fast but realistic firearms RPG-system?

[jone]

Hi.

I'm searching for a RPG-system for modern combat (=firearms). I'd like to find a system that works both with a WW2 and a present day (~year 2000) campaigns. So auto- and burstfire rules should be included.

I'm trying to find a system both realistic but also fast and playable. I was almost comfortable even with the Twilight:2000 system, until I spent a year in the army :). Now I need much more realism. More realistic injury-rules, range and recoil calculations and so on. But I'm not looking for anything like Phoenix Command either...no, not 'that' realistic.

I have tried out some systems, I'll list them here:

1. Twilight:2000

- too long combat turns (5s, you can shoot 50 rounds in that time!)
- too unrealistic weapon damages and recoil calculation
- injury rules suck! You can blow up a hand grenade in your hand and still recover in a few days


2. GURPS

- too slow (combat turns are only 1s long)
- a bit too complicated
- 3D6 doesn't work very well imo
- range and recoil calculation for weapons could be much better


3. Millennium's End

- too much numbers (in combat, in character skill/stats/attributes)
- range calcultaion sucks (you hit extremely easy at short distances but need to very good to hit a human at 150m with an assault rifle (and that is not very difficult if you are aiming properly)
- I don't like how basic attributes are calculated... way too much calculation to be done


4. Phoenix Command

- superveryextra realistic........and slow



---

The best system of those above is Millennium's End (imo). Although it really sucks in some parts, I really liked the "silhouette" HIT-table and the lenght of combat turns (2-3s).



So, does anyone know a Rule-system to recommend? I'm really desperate! :D


jone

[Chris Geisel]

Realistic usually means different things to different people. Can you describe what you want more?

To give you an example of what I mean, to me, realistic rules for guns might mean that when you are shot, you roll d6. Anything but 6 means you're dead. To me, that's realistic because most people die when they get shot. It's also pretty fast.

[M. J. Young]

Chris (Welcome to the Forge) is right: realistic has a lot of different meanings. I like what we did with Multiverser, because an ordinary person picking up a gun probably can't kill you with it without firing a lot of bullets, and an expert probably can kill you with a single shot.

You might take a look at a couple articles by Charles Franklin in the e-zine http://welcome.to/cggzine/">The Way, the Truth, and the Dice. I remember Hitting Them Where It Hurts dealt with how to get the kind of results in play that match military statistics, and The Fog of War attempted to suggest ways to bring the confusion of battle into the game. If that's the sort of "realism" you mean, Franklin is a veteran marine and a veteran gamer (he was at Origins when Dungeons & Dragons was introduced), so he's pretty solid on this.

I hope that helps.

--M. J. Young

[jone]

Realistic usually means different things to different people. Can you describe what you want more?

To give you an example of what I mean, to me, realistic rules for guns might mean that when you are shot, you roll d6. Anything but 6 means you're dead. To me, that's realistic because most people die when they get shot. It's also pretty fast.

I think the actual damage isn't that important... the part I'd like to be "realistic" is the whole combat before the hit is taken; shooting different rates of fire (single, burst, auto), shooting at different distances, aiming bonuses, recoil penalties, hit location, etc.  But still, I think GURPS and its 1s-turns is too slow.

And I don't think that stats for each weapon model is needed, just the for different weapon types: light pistols, heavy pistols, submachineguns, assault rifles, rifles, sniper rifles, heavy sniper rifles, light machineguns, heavy machineguns, greaned and other explosives ETC.

So the actual system... that's what needs to be good.

Chris (Welcome to the Forge) is right: realistic has a lot of different meanings. I like what we did with Multiverser, because an ordinary person picking up a gun probably can't kill you with it without firing a lot of bullets, and an expert probably can kill you with a single shot.

Multiverser?

You might take a look at a couple articles by Charles Franklin in the e-zine The Way, the Truth, and the Dice. I remember Hitting Them Where It Hurts dealt with how to get the kind of results in play that match military statistics, and The Fog of War attempted to suggest ways to bring the confusion of battle into the game. If that's the sort of "realism" you mean, Franklin is a veteran marine and a veteran gamer (he was at Origins when Dungeons & Dragons was introduced), so he's pretty solid on this.

Nice article. This is certainly something I will use for determining damage etc. First I just want to find a system to use before damage calculation is needed :).


jone

[Darksmith]

R.Talsorian had a book out called Compendium of Modern Firearms (Edge of the Sword Vol. 1) that had a firearm combat system built into it, but I'm not sure if it will be to your liking. The system was kinda slow, but realistic...

Well as realistic as rolling a die to shoot someone with a gun that doesn't exist can be. But it was geared to be used with multiple systems and not locked down to one style or genre.

Hope this helps.

[M. J. Young]

Multiverser?

Well, I'm not exactly certain what the question is, but I'll try to give a brief answer.

Multiverser is a campaign system in which player characters move from universe to universe, most commonly by dying in one. It stipulates that there's no such thing as "fiction", only the truth of another world, and thus provides a framework of rules to cover just about everything one way or another. Firearms is covered, but not separately from, for example, lasers and kinetic blasters on the one side and crossbows and slings on the other.

The rules use a single skill system for everything, from lighting fires to firing weapons to operating spaceships to performing magic to communicating telepathically to walking tightropes to becoming non-corporeal. There are nuances in different areas, such as specific categories of modifiers that impact magic, and specific ways of interpreting rolls in combat, but sufficient consistency is maintained such that if you're using magic in combat the nuances integrate rather than interfere.

In connection with the statement concerning firearms, there are a couple of aspects of the skill system in combat that make a difference.

[*]The single roll hit and damage system says that you must roll below a certain number to hit successfully, and your roll determines the amount of damage done. Thus if you have a better chance to hit, you also can do more damage, because a higher roll will be successful.[*]Rather than defining weapons with fixed damage ranges, weapons are placed in damage categories. For example, a damaging weapon does the roll divided by twenty (that is, d100/20, a range of one to five), while a dangerous weapon does the roll divided by ten (d100/10, one to ten). (All values are rounded up, so the math is pretty easy.) A more skilled user of a weapon gets several benefits, one of which is a damage category bonus, kicking him up to the next higher level of damage for the weapon; a particularly skilled individual will also get damage points, added to the die roll after success has been determined but before damage is calculated, raising the minimum and maximum damage he can do.[/list:u]There are other features of the system that make experts particularly deadly while keeping amateurs somewhat limited, but these two leap to mind. I'd be happy to discuss it in more detail, if you've got questions.

--M. J. Young

[contracycle]

IMO Conspiracy X has an excellent combat resolution system that is both fast and deadly.  But it does not have detailed hit locations or the like.  The spread of gunshot wound results looks very plausible to me, and it easily allows a pistol bullet to wound slightly or grievously without taking too much calculation or calling for special exceptions.

[Kaare Berg]

Conspiracy X is a good one, I've found Blue Planet v2 to have my favourite combat resolution system, but then I am an abstract rules fan.

also check out Godlike if you can find it.

I'm trying to find a system both realistic but also fast and playable. . . snip  . . . I think the actual damage isn't that important... the part I'd like to be "realistic" is the whole combat before the hit is taken; shooting different rates of fire (single, burst, auto), shooting at different distances, aiming bonuses, recoil penalties, hit location, etc. But still, I think GURPS and its 1s-turns is too slow.

IMO you can't do this without going abstract. The more detail you pile on, the more knowledge you need to have of the system and its options, tabels and so on.

I've used DP9 Core Silhuette system both for CP2020 games and Aliens homebrews. Two types of games where high realism (read:brutality) need to be combined with speedy resolution, while still letting you count bullets.

On the other hand, as a recent convert, I'd say you can achive the same by using Dogs in the Vineyard.

[jone]

IMO Conspiracy X has an excellent combat resolution system that is both fast and deadly. But it does not have detailed hit locations or the like. The spread of gunshot wound results looks very plausible to me, and it easily allows a pistol bullet to wound slightly or grievously without taking too much calculation or calling for special exceptions.

I have to check this out. Thanks!

Well, I'm not exactly certain what the question is, but I'll try to give a brief answer.

You gave a correct answer :)

There are other features of the system that make experts particularly deadly while keeping amateurs somewhat limited, but these two leap to mind. I'd be happy to discuss it in more detail, if you've got questions.

Cool. The system sounds like it's worth testing. Of course, if you want to tell me more about it...here's what I'd like to know:

- Is there combat rounds/turns? How long?
- For firearms, what kind of rules are there for shooting at different ranges, recoil, shooting at a  prone character and while being prone, shooting while moving, etc?

Thanks for your previous answers!


jone

[DevP]

The system on my "realistic pure system" shortlist: BTRC's CORPS. It seems like it might be just what you want:

[*]Generally fast, often not needing rolls (If Skill >= Difficulty, autosuccess; if Difficulty-Skill>5, autofailure; otherwise, a probability on a 1d10 of success)
[*] Realistic: 1 second rounds (you might dislike that, or you might find it more reasonable that TW2K; there are rate-of-fire limits and the like to keep rounds sane)
[*] Nonrandom initiative system, based on the skills used in combat
[*] Fixed damage
[*] Optional rules for autofire + instant (NPC) kills
[*] A rather gritty implementation of damage, based on impairments to the body
[*] and CORPS reflects BTRC's almost crazy dedication to accuracy of guns, recoil, etc.[/list:u]

In short, you're looking at a d10 roll for each action, and perhaps another d10 for hit location (if the person doesn't pick a target), and getting shot with a gun hurts, and with the right calibur will kill you. I could definitely see a mix of the optional rules (remembering to exclude the optional rules you don't want) that would give you something like the play you want.

Unfortunately, the BTRC site seems to down. If anyone could provide the Quickstart rules, that would be neat! Otherwise, I'll put them on my site.

[DevP]

An additional comment (to keep my post from sounding too much like a "Sell Me On ..." reply):

I appreciate where CORPS makes its choices about realism/not-realism. I guess I'll go point-by-point...

[*]Combat: In many games, you can count on always some passive dodge or saving throw against incoming blows, and using anaesthetic HP reflecting injury.. Combat in CORPS is notably harsh in both these realms, and would not support that style of play. Ideal combat (in terms of success) is probably preliminary maximization one's advantages in a given situation, followed by a quick and fast use of overwhelming force. Certainly, a different feel than some kinds of "heroic", drawn-out combat that you may seek in other geems. In other words, wuxia this ain't.
[*]Granularity & Probabilities: Greg Porter (designer) expressed his opinion that 10% granularity of probabilities was as much that was needed (i.e. that the 5% steps of a d20 were slightly unnecessary, and a d100 granularity was totally unnecessary). If a 10%
[*]Charts & Fixed Damages: Damage is always fixed, which I feel is acceptible due to the coarse granularity of impairments; and various charts are used, but are often based on rather simplified numerical patterns (he's a big fan of squared numbers). I've seen the detail he puts into statting out guns & real-world phenomenona (more than I'd ever care about), so I have faith that it jibes pretty well with reality.
[*]Stats & Skills: The relationship between a raw attribute and a learned skill is often argued about in terms of realism. The tack that Porter takes is a raw attribute is not additive towards a skill (as in stat+skill systems), but rather makes learning a given skill "cheaper" while increasing your ability to do unskilled tasks. (Sidenote: he has some interesting choices for "base attributes". They seem slightly different from what you'd expect, but they make more gaming-sense upon further reflection.)
[*]Fixed-point character build: This is arguably a concession against "realistism" in favor of "gamability", especially if you believe that persons can be inherently unequal. Especially when natural min-maxing tendencies come into play, some odd combinations are likely to come about, like my friend who had a Level 5 Enemy with UNICEF in order to earn 25 SP. (Given my current play-preferences, I would probably have players build their characters WITHOUT a fixed-point total, freely building characters as they like, although I'd use the total for some other in-game purpose.)[/list:u]

[DevP]

Found CORPS nutshell. http://www.btrc.net/files/nutshellc/nutshell_v15en.pdf

[jone]

Wow, I really appreciate you shared this much information to me (and others). Thank you.

Nice link, looks cool. I think I have to take a closer look at this game system.

[jone]

CORPS seems very good at first look. I really have to check this up.

[Ben Lehman]

Since people seem to be doing the "just throwing things out there" thing, I recommend you check out Friday Night Firefight, the combat system for Cyberpunk 2013 and 2020.  It is extremely playable, and very realistic in terms of providing a fear of guns, nastiness of injuries, and resolution between, say, a sniper rifle and a saturday night special.

yrs--
--Ben