Non-Standard RPG Components

[Keith Sears]

This helps a lot. I think the unusual game components become a much bigger deal if everyone has to buy them. Of course, the GM could always run down to the local hobby store and get a hundred glass stones in a couple of colors, but that requires a "scavenger hunt" in order to play. If I were excited by the other aspects of the game, this wouldn't stop me from doing it, but I'd have to be enthusiastic enough to want to clear this hurdle.

That is going to be the real magic trick.. making the game so cool that it overcomes reluctance.

[komradebob]

This is something that I have been kicking around for a while. I think what finally kicked it over for me was when I noticed how readily available the stones were in craft shops and how cheap they are in bulk on the internet

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I fell in love with them when we were using them as blood points in Jyhad. I decided to use them for A Cauldron... after some freeform actual play with my daughter. For whatever reason, she simply didn't like using dice in our floor games ( she had no problem with dice in other games), and I decided that going diceless and largely paperless was desireable for these types of games. OTOH, I freely admit that aCoMB is a crunched down version of Universalis, so I wanted to keep some of the resource management/pacing mechanics of that game in my game.

Anyway, glass beads are just cool. I sthere any viable way for you to include them directly in your game?

[Keith Sears]

If your going to have non-standard components, I think it helps to have some sort of availabilty of those components at your site ( even if you aren't selling them, a link to a site that does would be helpful0 or alternately provide suggestions for substitutes in your game. If you've seen the old edition of D&D that had cut-out chits to substitute for the polyhedrons, you can see an example of a game company doing just that sort of thing.

Oh geez, that brings back some memories. Back in the 70's, the polyhedrals were a "non-standard" component. They were very hard to find, and the sets that were available were of terrible quality. They looked to me as though they were made out of soap.

I've brought this same question up on the GPA and WZL mailing lists, and several people have brought up the possibility of including stones with the game. An alternative that I would like to do is to make a kit available with the required stones and a decorative bag.

[komradebob]

Have you had a chance to do research on the costs to do this? Also, have you considered plastic beads as an alternative ( safety concerns?).

Does anyone have suggestions where HGD can find these sorts of items at low cost?

[Keith Sears]

Hearing the mechanic like this, it sounds to me like players could also use a deck of cards, with certain suits for the white/black and clear/blue colors.  Or, you need more than 14 of a given color, you could have face cards stand in for the temporary cards and divide them by red/black.  Players will certainly have cards already and they're probably cheaper than beads.

Cards could be an interesting substitute. The way I would do it is that red suits would be white/light and black suits would be black/dark. Whether the card is perment or tempory would be determined by the color of the card's back. Red-backed cards could be the permanent ones and blue-backed the tempories.

[Keith Sears]

Have you had a chance to do research on the costs to do this? Also, have you considered plastic beads as an alternative ( safety concerns?).

Does anyone have suggestions where HGD can find these sorts of items at low cost?

I haven't checked out the cost of plastic beads, but a quick check of http://www.yessupplyco.com/products/glass_rocks1.htm quotes the bulk price of $8 per 500-600 stones.  Assuming that I get a set of white and a set of black, mix them together, and divide them up into 10 sets of 100, my basic cost would be $16. I could easily sell the stones alone for $6 a set.

[Selene Tan]

Plastic beads are really cheap, although they're much smaller and generally look less snazzy than glass stones. Most bulk packages are in assorted colors. A quick search found http://www.joann.com/catalog.jhtml?CATID=101640 , which actually lists how many beads are in its bulk packs. (Most places state weight.) Joann.com has some black and white pony beads in packs of 900 for $1.88.

I'd probably go ahead with the glass stones, but maybe have a short section listing alternative methods.

[komradebob]

The black and white beads in a pouch with your game logo on it would look very cool.

Since they're black and white, could you use beads produced for Go sets?

[Keith Sears]

Plastic beads are really cheap, although they're much smaller and generally look less snazzy than glass stones. Most bulk packages are in assorted colors. A quick search found http://www.joann.com/catalog.jhtml?CATID=101640 , which actually lists how many beads are in its bulk packs. (Most places state weight.) Joann.com has some black and white pony beads in packs of 900 for $1.88.

I'd probably go ahead with the glass stones, but maybe have a short section listing alternative methods.

Thanks for the lead on those beads! You are right that there should be alternatives suggested. I will definitely include that information.

[Keith Sears]

The black and white beads in a pouch with your game logo on it would look very cool.

I think it would, too. Here is the logo:



I came up with the name and logo long before I considered using stones. One of the things that really attacted me to the stones was the colors. Black and white in oppositiion and shifting back and forth like the phases of the moon. The imagery was perfect.

Since they're black and white, could you use beads produced for Go sets?

I imagine so, but they may be more difficult to find than the glass stones.

[GreatWolf]

Keith,

Don't sweat it.  As you might have noticed, at my house I have a huge bag of glass stones.  I've been using those things for years for numerous purposes.  Blood Points for Jyhad (as someone else noted), bits for Netrunner, Coins for Universalis...the list goes on and on.  Admittedly, I scavenged most of those stones from my mother, after she was finished with a given flower arrangement.  But still, I happen to know that a bag of those stones costs about $2.  A stop at any craft store or even your local Wal-mart (ward me from the evil eye) and an investment of $5 or so should provide all the stones that the average game group will need.

[ravenx99]

I bought three different colors of stones just to play Zendo (an Icehouse game).  And I recently ordered $30 worth of dice just to play Dogs in the Vineyard.  (I haven't played a game with non-d6's or Fudge Dice in years, and my polyhedral stock is very low.  And I'm picky enough to want all-numbers on the d6's instead of pips.)

Now I'm crazy about bits and pieces, so I'm not typical.  You will turn away customers because they don't want to buy a game without all the bits included.  But if you include the bits, I bet that you're going to turn away even more customers because they don't want to pay for you to include the bits.  (Because they may already have the necessary bits, or they can go buy simple glass stones for less than what it costs to get them with the game.)

On the otherhand, Wunderland Games did release a boxed version of Zendo with a standard set of pyramids and glass stones.  So after they knew they had a hit on their hands, they provided both options... you can buy the pyramids with or without the bits necessary to play Zendo.

[groundhog]

Dried lima beans and dried kidney beans could be used, or checkers if necessary. Inventive players will find a way to do this. One of the home-brewed games my friends and I used to play required eight colors of beads. We used plastic decorative beads that you see on fringed leather or denim clothes and accessories. You can get them at Hobby Lobby or even Walmart. We got ours at Walmart, and they were cheap and easy to find in the craft section.

[Chris Passeno]

I'd go with some bulk glass beads in a small ziplock bag put inside a box along with a 5.5x8.5 rules book.  Slap a wrap-around color copy label on the front and back and sell it as a boxed set for $15-$20 a piece.

Of course that all depends on what your cost would be, but you get the idea.

[Keith Sears]

But still, I happen to know that a bag of those stones costs about $2.  A stop at any craft store or even your local Wal-mart (ward me from the evil eye) and an investment of $5 or so should provide all the stones that the average game group will need.

Seth,

I am not at all concerned about the availability of the stones. That isnt' the issue. The issue I am brining up has more to do with the little gremlin that lives in most gamer's heads and tells them that Real RPGs only use dice. I guess that this is type of thinking isn't too uncommon among people in general...Once you find something you like, you tend to stick to it.

Playing with you and Ralph has given me the opportunity to widen my horizons when it comes to game design.  If I were to make an RPG that uses stones, I would have a hell of a fight ahead of me when it comes to capturing people's minds because it is so different.  However, if I were to come up with a system that uses dice...then the game would still have to be different enough so it isn't dismissed because it is just like all the others.

Quite the paradox, isn't it?