Non-Standard RPG Components

[Valamir]

Catering to retailers is a bit tangental at this point but I'll just say from my own experience that Justin's advice about having a small audience who really likes you vs. a large audience who barely knows you applies equally forcefully to retailers.

There are a number of retailers who LOVE indie games.  Many of us indie publishers who are in distribution can name names for which FLGSs stock and restock indie titles, give us prominent display racks, promote and push indie titles, encourage in store demos and so on.

Those retailers are worth their weight in gold.  The rest...like the multitude of gamers who won't buy anything not d20...can blow it out their ear.

So I think the idea of "catering to retailers" is a pretty impossible and unnecessary goal.  Build the best game you can, the game that gets you excited, gets your friends excited, gets outside playtesters excited, gets certain segments of the online community excited.  There WILL be retailers who will stock it and happily reorder it when it sells.  May not be the majority of them....but you don't have to move 10,000+ copies to be successful as a small press publisher.  Put a few hundred copies on store shelves and you've got your next print run paid for easy.  You only need a handful of indie-friendly retailers to do that...so don't even worry what the non-indie-friendly think.

[Keith Sears]

I don't know if innovation is necessary, but finding a niche is.

The example I always use is that you're better off getting 50% of 10 people to buy than 1% of 100 people.  Or, looking at it another way, you're better off with a little group of people who like you a lot than with a large group of people who like you a little.  There's just too much competition out there to really appeal to a large market without a big name, budget or both.

I think you really need to focus on whether or not the stones make for a better game.  If they do, then figure out how to emphasize this difference and market to the people who want it.

One of the things I have been studying intently since I published my first game has been marketing. The two books I have eaten alive has been "Positioning" and "The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing." Both books agree with you. Finding a niche is EXTREMELY important. The main reason I am trying to work with stone is because I think they would produce a superior game, but they could set the game apart from the others, perhaps even into its own category.

[Keith Sears]

So I think the idea of "catering to retailers" is a pretty impossible and unnecessary goal.

There is only one way to cater to the retailers...,to have a winner that is going to bring in a lot of money. There are ways to help make a product more sellable, but only success breeds success.

[Mike Holmes]

You won't be alone. More and more games are going this way for randomizers. Crux, which I've mentioned to you, if/when it gets finished is already going to be paving the way for you. So I think going with the beads is a slamdunk.

But this all assumes that the game is actually better with the stones than with the dice. I think you're going about this backwards (and why no mention of this discussion on the list, BTW), you should discover if the beads would make for a good game, and then go with it if it's true. Asking if beads are a good idea, to justify whether or not build the rules may result in a whole lot of wasted time. You will only know the answer once you've looked at the rules.

Mike

[Keith Sears]

But this all assumes that the game is actually better with the stones than with the dice. I think you're going about this backwards (and why no mention of this discussion on the list, BTW), you should discover if the beads would make for a good game, and then go with it if it's true.

I actually do think that the game is going to be better with the stones. In my dry runs, the stones play smoothly and are more mathmatically balanced than the dice. I also think they look cool.

I have brought up the subject of the stones on the Yahoo group. I just didn't phrase it as well as I did on this thread. It just didn't feel right to bring it up again.

I'm not doing this backwards, but in parallel. I've been working on the rules before I asked the question, and I am currently writing them up. While I doing this, the question about non-standard components popped into my head I felt the immediate need to have it answered by a broad sampling of people.

[komradebob]

As silly as it sounds, I really do think some of this will hinge on whether or not the stones are actually included in the package with the game. I fully recognize that the stones are widely available, very often at the game shops, but I think there is a sort of marketing issue coming in to play here.

[Keith Sears]

As silly as it sounds, I really do think some of this will hinge on whether or not the stones are actually included in the package with the game. I fully recognize that the stones are widely available, very often at the game shops, but I think there is a sort of marketing issue coming in to play here.

You are quite correct. The question that initially began this thread is indeed marketing-oriented. The way I see it, I can believe like hell in what I produce, but I can't be there in every store to infect people with my enthusiasm. So what I must do is get into the heads of the people that it might appeal to, and to overcome whatever inner objections they might have to buying and playing it.

The best suggestion I have had so far is to produce the book seperately (not in a box, so customers can peruse the rules) and produce a kit with the stones and bag as an add-on item.

[Mike Holmes]

I have brought up the subject of the stones on the Yahoo group. I just didn't phrase it as well as I did on this thread. It just didn't feel right to bring it up again.

I meant that you could have pointed us to this thread from there (as opposed to rehashing things there). I could easily have missed this.

Are you avoiding me?

;-)

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

You know, this discussion is just going around in circles.

I suggest calling it off for a while, and Keith, now that you seem to have settled on the stones, try posting something more concrete to your actual goals next time. Like, "Ways to package stones for sale" or something like that.

Best,
Ron