Non-Standard RPG Components

[Valamir]

Shoot...dice shmise.  Take a gander at any of the RPGNet reviews of Capes and you'll see an avalance of narrow mindedness trying to put RPGs in a box.  You could put nothing but dice in a game and if it doesn't look like D&D some schmuck will tell you it isn't an RPG no matter what randomization system you use.

Welcome the criticism of fools, for it shows thou art on the right path.


BTW:  Seth and I are happy to offer any insight we might into Luna...but don't you dare design it to make us happy.  Design the game that YOU want to play.  Not the game that you think someone else wants to play.  Sometimes you need to tell even the best intentioned critics to shut the hell up.

[GreatWolf]

Seth,

I am not at all concerned about the availability of the stones. That isnt' the issue. The issue I am brining up has more to do with the little gremlin that lives in most gamer's heads and tells them that Real RPGs only use dice. I guess that this is type of thinking isn't too uncommon among people in general...Once you find something you like, you tend to stick to it.

See, in that case, you're not really dealing with a publishing issue.  You're dealing with a more fundamental concern:  will people think that my game sucks because it uses stones instead of dice?  To that, my response is largely, "Who gives a rip?"  When you're designing a game (or undergoing any creative endeavor), the first question is always "Am I satisfied with what I am making?"  Because if you're not persuaded that your work isn't junk, then no one else will be persuaded, either.

Don't worry if other people will go for the idea or not.  That is a concern for much later, when you've finished designing and playtesting (nudge nudge) your creation.  First, you sell yourself on the idea.  Then you sell a playtest group (that would be our gaming group) on the idea.  Once that's done (and only then) should you worry about trying to sell a larger audience on the idea.

You are being far too tentative about this.  Don't be.  Do you think that your game should use stones?  Then use them, and use them proudly!  And if someone else thinks that it's a dumb idea, then he is obviously not sufficiently enlightened to see the true possibilities inherent in the idea.  And, really, who cares what dimwits think?*

You will not be able to make everyone happy, so don't bother trying.  Be true to your creative vision first, then everything else will follow.

[*]This is obviously different from someone who is trying to assist you in bringing your idea to fruition.

[GreatWolf]

And once again, Ralph and I end up on the same page.  Spooky...

[Keith Sears]

BTW:  Seth and I are happy to offer any insight we might into Luna...but don't you dare design it to make us happy.  Design the game that YOU want to play.  Not the game that you think someone else wants to play.  Sometimes you need to tell even the best intentioned critics to shut the hell up.

Thank you for the support, Ralph. I think that the biggest personal hurdle I have concerning game design is that I am picky... damn picky. I also like to play with ideas. After we played DitV, I started thinking about the back and forth dynamic it had when resolving conflicts. It was quite similar to what I orginially had with the dice version of Luna. I'm working on a method to work this into the stones version.

I've posted this very same question to the GPA and WZL mailing lists and on the RPG.net forum. The reaction has been fairly positive from all sources except for RPG.net. It hasn't put me off of the stone idea, but it does reinforce the other advice that I have gotten. Whatever game I apply this to will have to be damned cool in order to succeed.

[Keith Sears]

And once again, Ralph and I end up on the same page.  Spooky...

::Plays the Twilight Zone Theme::

[Valamir]

Thank you for the support, Ralph. I think that the biggest personal hurdle I have concerning game design is that I am picky

The hardest lesson I've ever learned and that I still have trouble with today (and which is partially responsible for the slow release of R&R)...


Be picky AFTER you have something playtestable.

[jdagna]

I am not at all concerned about the availability of the stones. That isnt' the issue. The issue I am brining up has more to do with the little gremlin that lives in most gamer's heads and tells them that Real RPGs only use dice. I guess that this is type of thinking isn't too uncommon among people in general...Once you find something you like, you tend to stick to it.

Well, at least half of gamers say that D&D is all you need to run any kind of game you want... I suspect they're the same ones who insist on having dice.  You're not going to please those people except by buying WotC from Hasbro.

[Keith Sears]

Well, at least half of gamers say that D&D is all you need to run any kind of game you want... I suspect they're the same ones who insist on having dice.  You're not going to please those people except by buying WotC from Hasbro.

You can make any game you want with the D&D rules?? Jiminy Cricket!! Why am I wasting my time trying to create an RPG when there is one ready and waiting??!! ; )

Thank you for the support.

It may be possible to come up with any kind of setting if you spend a hell of a lot of time hammering it into shape. However, it is the same game underneath whatever trappings you invent.

Traditional RPGs take long hours to prepare and provide very little entertainment value when played. One of the groups I play with are Dyed in the Wool D&D fanatics. I'm not counting on any of them to even try this game out.

[LloydBrown]

Have you guys been in game stores lately?  They all have these stones already.  CCG players buy them every day.

While you're there, ask them if you can buy their Marvel RPG that used stones for 80% off retail because they never sold their original copy.  You might get it.

[Keith Sears]

Have you guys been in game stores lately?  They all have these stones already.  CCG players buy them every day.

While you're there, ask them if you can buy their Marvel RPG that used stones for 80% off retail because they never sold their original copy.  You might get it.

Yes, the stones can be found in gaming stores, but one can't rely on them having them available, or having enough of them.

I already bought the Marvel RPG when it was still considered to be a hot commodity. It has some interesting ideas, but the system reli8es entirely on resource allocation. It looks like it might be fun to play in a one-on-one-beat-each-other-up scenario, but it might be a nightmare for a GM to run in a traditional RPG group.

In your reply to my post on RPG.net, your answer was "Don't do it."  I did take note of it because it was one of the few actual negative responses I have recieved.  This doesn't make your answer invalid, however. I realize what a big gamble I am taking by atempting to use something other than dice for my game. People tend to like what they like, and it is very difficult to break them out of that. I'm not going to fool myself about that. This game has a very good chance of tanking in the marketplace, but in order to have a chance of success, innovation is necessary.

[LloydBrown]

In your reply to my post on RPG.net, your answer was "Don't do it."  I did take note of it because it was one of the few actual negative responses I have recieved.  This doesn't make your answer invalid, however.

I don't want to downplay the advice of everyone else, but until you find another high-volume retailer, I've probably sold more games to customers than anyone here.  More in volume, more in variety.  Just take that into consideration and give it the weight it deserves.

But so as not to stamp on a creative idea, I have to admit that I loved the idea when they announced how it would work.  As with all things, the execution matters at least as much as the concept.  Maybe in your setting, with your presentation, couched in your graphic design, it could work.

Just understand that a retailer who remembers that previous versions of this mechanic have done poorly will be LESS likely to pick up another experiment than they would another, generic game that promoted its content and setting over its game mechanic.

[daMoose_Neo]

WalMart. $.99 Bag of 100+
Card stores, 2.99, 15-20. Found this out at GenCon when we realized we forgot our bags back home ^_^
I use them for damage counters for Final Twilight (probably going to do a "Pack" with a softback case and counters for perks. Cheap to assemble, cool to have).

Suppose this is the question: are you aiming for retail or are you aiming for self distribution & sales?
Retailers won't, as a rule of thumb, give a rats back side if the game really rocks, this much is true. Does it sell, yes or no. D&D operates on d20. Majority of hobby store shoppers are D&D players. New product, d20, likely to sell to that majority. Lloyd's point as a due one for retail sales, yes. Those with a sour taste in their mouth about one design will apply it to all future designs. "I'll never cary an indie title again! I'm up to my ears in "Groundhogs & Gophers", the quality of which sucks! Whats this? Dogs in the Vineyard? Must be another indie P.O.S! Oh look, Rodents & Rascals d20! oooo..."

But the question remains, are you designing it for retail or are you designing because its a damn cool idea that plays wicked awesome? If its wicked awesome, do whatever it takes by golly!

btw Lloyd, retail considerations don't seem to play as big a part of consideration here as they might at RPG.net. A lot of games here only see PDF release, meaning the retailers are the likes of RPGNow, Indie Revolution, DriveThruRPG, etc. A shopper at these stores is more apt to look at indie anyway, be it stones, roullette wheels or buttered monekys as the randomizer.

[LloydBrown]

btw Lloyd, retail considerations don't seem to play as big a part of consideration here as they might at RPG.net. A lot of games here only see PDF release, meaning the retailers are the likes of RPGNow, Indie Revolution, DriveThruRPG, etc. A shopper at these stores is more apt to look at indie anyway, be it stones, roullette wheels or buttered monekys as the randomizer.

So I've noticed.  I just can't help thinking in terms of commercial success.  And with retail of some kind still accounting for 96% of all sales, retail success is important if you want to achieve commercial success.

Retailers won't, as a rule of thumb, give a rats back side if the game really rocks, this much is true.

Not true at all!  Good games equal strong backlist sales.  Bad games equal Decipher's LoTR.  Unfortunately, they don't all realize this, and when the cash is tight, it's easier to cut back on a product that will make you $40 a year than one that will make you $16,000.

[jdagna]

In your reply to my post on RPG.net, your answer was "Don't do it."  I did take note of it because it was one of the few actual negative responses I have recieved.  This doesn't make your answer invalid, however. I realize what a big gamble I am taking by atempting to use something other than dice for my game. People tend to like what they like, and it is very difficult to break them out of that. I'm not going to fool myself about that. This game has a very good chance of tanking in the marketplace, but in order to have a chance of success, innovation is necessary.

I don't know if innovation is necessary, but finding a niche is.

The example I always use is that you're better off getting 50% of 10 people to buy than 1% of 100 people.  Or, looking at it another way, you're better off with a little group of people who like you a lot than with a large group of people who like you a little.  There's just too much competition out there to really appeal to a large market without a big name, budget or both.

I think you really need to focus on whether or not the stones make for a better game.  If they do, then figure out how to emphasize this difference and market to the people who want it.

I would use Amber as an example.  It's clearly not a "mainstream" game and never will be, but it has had multiple printings and clearly qualifies as a successful product.  The diceless nature of it turns many people off, so can't appeal to most of the market.  However, you have to ask yourself: if Amber had come out with just another dice mechanic, would it have been as successful as it is?  Even people (like me) who know nothing about the books or how the game works hear the name and think "Oh, yeah... the diceless one."

[daMoose_Neo]

Not true at all! Good games equal strong backlist sales. Bad games equal Decipher's LoTR. Unfortunately, they don't all realize this, and when the cash is tight, it's easier to cut back on a product that will make you $40 a year than one that will make you $16,000.

Might have something to do with the stores I deal with. They'll stock the latest craptacular d20 class-supplement and sell 3 copies of 6 ordered, but wouldn't stock a small press title and learn a little bit about it to sell 10 copies and *having* to restock the title. Course too, my area caters to tourism, so they'll stock the blatant titles (D&D, Magic, YuGiOh) because its easy to sell to fudgies passing through. Owners may care, but many of the shelves *I* see don't reflect that. Lazy owners.
Point duely noted though ^_^

Developing a title soley based on retailer & consumer expectations is still a trap though. Justin's got a solid bead on it- 50% of 10 and all that.