Non-Standard RPG Components

[Keith Sears]

Hi there, folks. I'd like to get some opinions about the direction I should take with an RPG I am working on. When I first began this project, the system used dice like any other RPG. However, I had an idea that would take the system a step or two away from conventional mechanics. Instead of using dice, the game would use a bag of colored glass stones for a combined currency system and randomizer. Bags and glass stones are by no means proprietary. Any dice bag will do and glass stones can be found at almost any craft shop.

However, I am worried that this idea would actually turn out to be a disadvantage in the marketplace. All the players of the game would have to possess a bag of stones in order to play. That means an investment of time and money before anyone can even play the game.Eight years of working in customer service has taught me that people are great lovers of convenience.

So I would greatly appreciate other people's two cents. Can novelty overcome lethargy? Or could a game that relies on a non-standard component die a horrible death in the marketplace?

[Eero Tuovinen]

Both sides of the argument are true. But first, are you interested in sales or play? Because the reasons to buy and the reasons to play are different, and therefore you'll get different attitudes towards non-standard components as well. Consider:

Sales:
- I want to buy this game, because it's components look kewl.
- I don't want to buy this game, because I couldn't play it anyway.

Which is more likely? That depends completely on your representation and marketing venue. There is no meaningful way to give a general answer - normal polyhedrals can be considered "novelty dice" in the right environment, so there's no definite limit to what's standard equipment and what's not. People will buy even games they don't have equipment for, if they look interesting.

Play:
- This is cool, I'll have to get some components to play.
- I don't care enough about this to get the components.

After someone reads the book, it's a whole different game. They either like it, in which case they get the components, or they don't, in which case they don't. The thing is, getting those playing pieces is a relatively minor investment compared to the time and other investments (space, snacks, character sheets, whatever) the player is going to invest anyway. Thus the decision to play won't be affected by what components the game needs. Most avid gamers own a dozen perfectly normal games they've never played, so you won't get play by just having simple components. On the other hand, D&D gets plenty of play, even when it requires constant book investments, figures, battle mats, all kinds of dice, time (especially GM time) and all.

So my angle is that in reality you have much bigger worries than the component needs. They won't affect sales in most venues any more than your chosen cover, if even that. And there's a customer segment that goes for novel and innovative mechanics, so they counterbalance the possible losses, too. I know that I'll take another look at a game that uses stones for combined resource/randomizer, if for no other reason than having myself designed such a game. Compare with the generic fantasy game, which I'll pass without a second glance.

Just remember that people are going to invest plenty of time and probably some money in the game if they're going to play, whether you use strange components or not. It's worth it to them! If they like the game, it'll be dozens of hours of entertainment. You, your game and your components are minor things compared to friends, playing time, actual play and all that. A system truly worth playing more than once is certainly worthy of getting some stones for.

--

One guy you should ask about this is Alexander Cherry. He sells a game which requires a friggin' roulette wheel to play. If he can do it, then so can we.

--

As for bag & stones specifically... I personally would think that they're a pretty standard piece of equipment for any hardcore gamer. If they're your target audience, you're golden. Don't just expect to get much newbie market.

... that is, if the game really is better with the stones. Never design away from quality, that's my advice. If the game is as good as it can be with novelty components, then that's by golly what should be used! You can always give a dice variant, if you want to; most stone-draw mechanics can be simulated pretty interestingly by an empty random table the player fills and uses for draws. It's even better in some rare implementations (mainly ones requiring multiple bags or strange stone-switching).

[daMoose_Neo]

Actually, look around for some posts on "Your Gods Are Dead", at least I believe that was it. Tobias of the Group Design/Shrodengers War was originally designing a game using a bag of colored tiles. He dropped it in favor of a DitV setting and moved on to SW, but he might have some insight yet as to how well it worked for him in his tests.

[paulkdad]

All the players of the game would have to possess a bag of stones in order to play.

I'm not quite clear on this. Does each player have a different color stone? Or are you imagining that you will need so many stones to play a game that everyone will have to bring their own? If the latter, then I could imagine that being a bit of a hassle.

I toyed with a similar idea recently, but for me the big deal was dependent vs. independent trials. Especially pulling randomizers and currency from the same bag, the odds are constantly going to be shifting... a lot. That puts an interesting spin on randomization, and definitely favors those who are not math-challenged. Players who can calculate odds on the fly are going to love it; others may not.

[jdagna]

There a lots of supplements for stones that people can use from their own homes.  Rice, beans, pennies, etc.  It might take a little work to mark or dye these items to represent different colors (I'm assuming they need different colors) but that's not a problem.  You could also offer a virtual bead bag over the net with very little programming required.

In fact, I'd argue that it's possibly a good thing.  If your system requires bags and beads, that's an extra product you can sell, which gives you one more way to make money.  You don't see the cost of a WH40K army stopping them from making money.  In fact, it's the other way around - most of their money comes from non-rules items.  And for cheapskates... well, I once played WH40K using squares of paper with symbols written on them instead of miniatures.  People who want to play will find a way.

Eero's major point is the most important though - the real investment is the time and energy to learn and play the game.  Last year at GenCon, a company near us was giving their core books away and I understand that they still took books back home with them.  That tells me that people considered the investment of carrying the book home and reading it more work than the entertainment value they'd get from it.

Once you convince someone to play the game, a $20-30 investment is nothing.  Using WH40K as an example, most people will happily plunk down $200+ for an army and then spend a month painting it.  Magic has addicts who still spend $50 a week on cards.

So, as I see it, beads provide you with a possible revenue source and their cost is not enough to stop someone who likes the game from playing.  

The only concern I'd say you should have at this point in the discussion is this: do the beads add to people's enjoyment of the game or not?  A lot of people like the feel of dice, for example.  Or if people who play the game have problems with beads getting mixed up or lost, that might detract from it.  But maybe the beads simplify math (or some other aspect) enough to really appeal to people.  As long as you're confident that bags of stones improve the gameplay, I see no reason you shouldn't use them.

[Keith Sears]

One guy you should ask about this is Alexander Cherry. He sells a game which requires a friggin' roulette wheel to play. If he can do it, then so can we.

Kind of makes you wonder where you can pick up a roulette wheel.

[Keith Sears]

I'm not quite clear on this. Does each player have a different color stone? Or are you imagining that you will need so many stones to play a game that everyone will have to bring their own? If the latter, then I could imagine that being a bit of a hassle.

I wasn't planning on getting into the system. I've still got some major bugs to hammer out. I mostly want to see if this is going to be worth the effort or if I should play it safe and stick with dice.

I will go into the basic premise of the system. It might help people understand what I am up to. It is a major modification of Wyrd. Each player begins with a bag of black and white stones in a 50/50 mix.  The number of stones in the bag depends on the power level of the adventures.

The players can draw from the bag to create Traits for their characters. White stones create positive Traits and black stones create negative Traits. As play progresses, the GM will hand out Light and Dark (Clear and Blue) stones in accordance to the challenges and awards in the adventure. Taking on challenges gains the player light stones. Getting a reward gains the player dark stones. The light and dark stones act as temporary white and black stones. After they are used, they are returned to the GM. So the probabilty of the bag is constantly shifting.

[Keith Sears]

The only concern I'd say you should have at this point in the discussion is this: do the beads add to people's enjoyment of the game or not?  A lot of people like the feel of dice, for example.  Or if people who play the game have problems with beads getting mixed up or lost, that might detract from it.  But maybe the beads simplify math (or some other aspect) enough to really appeal to people.  As long as you're confident that bags of stones improve the gameplay, I see no reason you shouldn't use them.

Would beads enhance the enjoyment of the game? That is a question that I truly wish I had the answer to. I do know that it's going to come down to the taste of the individual.

What I am sure of is that what I have in mind will simplify the math. provide currency for some Universalis-type storytelling, and ease the use of the balancing mechanic I mentioned in a previous post.

[komradebob]

Is there something in the air recently regarding glass beads in different colors used in this way? My little floor games rules ( A Cauldron of Magic beans) over in the design column also uses these components in a similar fashion...

Robert

[paulkdad]

The players can draw from the bag to create Traits for their characters. White stones create positive Traits and black stones create negative Traits. As play progresses, the GM will hand out Light and Dark (Clear and Blue) stones in accordance to the challenges and awards in the adventure.

This helps a lot. I think the unusual game components become a much bigger deal if everyone has to buy them. Of course, the GM could always run down to the local hobby store and get a hundred glass stones in a couple of colors, but that requires a "scavenger hunt" in order to play. If I were excited by the other aspects of the game, this wouldn't stop me from doing it, but I'd have to be enthusiastic enough to want to clear this hurdle.

[komradebob]

If your going to have non-standard components, I think it helps to have some sort of availabilty of those components at your site ( even if you aren't selling them, a link to a site that does would be helpful0 or alternately provide suggestions for substitutes in your game. If you've seen the old edition of D&D that had cut-out chits to substitute for the polyhedrons, you can see an example of a game company doing just that sort of thing.

Robert

[Valamir]

That's a good point Bob.

Although at this point Glass Stones are so ubiquitous that I can't imagine too many people not being able to find them.  Pretty much every Bed Bath & Beyond, Michaels, MJ Design, and Pier One carries them now (often in a wide range of frilly frosted pastel colors), as well as most pet stores (in the Aquarium section where they've largely replaced gravel) and many Garden Centers.

As far as non gamers are considered, they're easier to find than polyhedral dice by far.  So I wouldn't spend too much time worrying about it.

[jdagna]

Hearing the mechanic like this, it sounds to me like players could also use a deck of cards, with certain suits for the white/black and clear/blue colors.  Or, you need more than 14 of a given color, you could have face cards stand in for the temporary cards and divide them by red/black.  Players will certainly have cards already and they're probably cheaper than beads.

[komradebob]

I think HGD's original question does point to something important:
Appearance matters, more than folks sometimes give credit to.

Colored glass beads in a bag? Well, you could use cards or marked pennies, or colored squares of cardboard. But really, colored beads are damn cool!

I think visual impressions do matter. Consider how Hasbro/WotC is marketing D&D these days. They kept the polyhedron dice and they went out of their way to emphasize the miniatures. Is D&D better for that? I dunno, but it sure has a whole lot of visual appeal. They could have just as easily gone with primarily books and a single type of die, probably a d6. But that does nothing for visual recognition.

I don't think that non-standard components are the issue. I think that having components that people associate with your game is the issue. Polyhedron dice (as a set) are still mentally "Dragon Dice" to me, even after playing many different games.

[Keith Sears]

Is there something in the air recently regarding glass beads in different colors used in this way? My little floor games rules ( A Cauldron of Magic beans) over in the design column also uses these components in a similar fashion...

Robert

This is something that I have been kicking around for a while. I think what finally kicked it over for me was when I noticed how readily available the stones were in craft shops and how cheap they are in bulk on the internet.