[Dust Devils] Stud or Draw?

[Yokiboy]

Hello,

I know the rules refer to 5-Card Stud, but I get the feeling we're talking 5-Card Draw poker, which is correct?

Has anyone experimented with playing Stud rather than Draw? I love poker and although I know that Dust Devils resolution system really isn't a game of poker, I'd like it to be, and am thinking of the different poker variants and how they could be used with DD.

How do you handle the draw? Do you let players hold hands of over 5 cards when drawing? Say I have been dealt 8 cards, and after accounting for knacks and chips I get to redraw up to 3 cards, do I discard only 3 cards and re-draw up to 8 again?

In trying to keep this as close to poker as possible, while still allowing for breadth of in-game ability, I think I'll first have the player discard down to a hand of 5 cards, then go through the drawing process, filling the hand back up to 5 cards again. In other words I never want to have more than 5 cards in a players hand, except directly following the deal.

I am intrigued by playing DD using Stud rules, especially if my players go at each other at the same rate as in the other narrative games we've tried. It would be great seeing players being bluffed into folding by a few scare cards showing in their opponent's hand. I might even give 7-Card Stud a try, but I might have to first teach my players poker (yeah that should be read as swindling them out of their hard-earned cash ;).

TTFN,

Yoki

[Ron Edwards]

Interesting ...

It's wise to remember that poker is merely Color for Dust Devils. You don't play poker in any way, shape, or form.

Anyway, that said, my experience with the game has been strictly based on distinguishing between two types of hands. The first one is the whole total of cards drawn, minus those discarded and plus those added in. The second one is a five-card subset, chosen by the player.

I recommend this method because it puts a great deal of pressure on players when the best hand has all lower-rank cards ... but a high card is available if you are willing to give up the best hand.

Since narration depends on the high card, you often have to choose between the best five-card hard and a good chance of narrating. This effect was identified by Julie in our early play of an early version, and it found its way into the eventual finished rules. I think it's sufficiently strong to retain, and that your proposed changes would diminish its power.

Dust Devils resolution/narration is unique in role-playing games. You can choose what actual effects your damage does (the same numerical/suit result can stun a man or blow his head off, as you see fit). You can decide whether losing hands' cards take effect at all, and similarly in what way.

I'd suggest getting really familiar with this basic element of play before deciding to mess with the probabilities of the outcomes. As one of the early playtesters, I am pretty certain that we hammered the numbers into very usable shape ... and messing with that for the sake of Color seems risky to me.

Best,
Ron

[Yokiboy]

Very good points Ron, and I'm guilty of tweaking things a bit much and absolutely love poker. I will try the game as is our first go around, but I would personally enjoy a game with more of a poker feel, sort of what Mike Holmes was looking for in early DD threads. Now I just have to convince my gaming group to try a western game, they are very reluctant to play "cowpokes."

I would also like to share how I figured out how to play DD. It was one of the first narrative style games that I read, and was thrilled about reading, but I just didn't get it. The ideas within intrigued me, but I couldn't figure out what to make of them or how this narration business would affect things. I kept thinking that I should go back and re-read it, and did just that a few days ago.

My re-reading session came after having played FATE using the Sorcerer Relationship Map/Kickers/Bang setup, Primetime Adventures, and TROS. I have also learned a lot from reading Dogs in the Vineyard, Vincent's anyway blog, and Legends of Alyria in addition to tons of other games. And wouldn't you know it, the game just clicked - now I know what to do with it (well if I can only supress my tweaking instincts).

I think that Primetime Adventures is one of the finest gateway drugs into Story Now roleplaying, especially for us "experienced" (read: damaged) roleplayers. With a few more examples of gameplay it will be golden.

As Deadwood's finally airing in Sweden, maybe I can get some fans together to give DD a whirl.

TTFN,

Yoki

[Yokiboy]

Omaha! Omaha poker would totally work as a resolution mechanic in Dust Devils, but I promise to try it as is first.  ;)

Let me know if anyone's interested in how or why Omaha would work so well using the DD mechanics. Maybe I should just create my own RPG around poker, or simply play poker!  :D

TTFN,

Yoki

[Matt Snyder]

Cool, Yokiboy, glad to find you "returning" to the game. Fantastic!

My advice would mirror Ron's, so I'll just let his comments stand.

I'd love to hear how your game goes if you convince those dirty sonsabitches to play cowpokes.

;)

[Hans]

Hi:

It doesn't seem like Yoikboy's original question has been answered, perhaps because the answer is obvious and I am the only one missing it.  However, I will ask it in a slightly more detailed way.

The rules state that the Dealer's hand is a stud hand (either 3, 5, or 7 card stud).  It doesn't really state anything up front about exactly what kind of hand the player's get, but I am assuming that they are draw hands.

Now, typically, Stud Poker is poker where most of the cards are dealt face UP, and there is no redrawing.  That is, in typical 5-card stud poker, play proceeds as follows;

All players get one face down card and one face up card
Bet
All players get another face up card
bet
All players get another face up card
bet
all players get last face up card
final bet and call

Now here are my questions, whether they were Yoikboy's or not:

* Was the phrase "X-Card Stud Hand" in the rules intended to be just colourful language, or was it really intended to mean that one or more of the Dealer's cards are dealt face up on the table for all players to see them?
* If they were intended to be stud hands, how many cards would be face down versus face up? (typically there would be one face down in 5-card, and 7-card would have 3 face down.  Since 3 card poker is not typical, I can't address it)
* If this is an open question, has anyone played with the dealer's hand being completely hidden versus somewhat revealed and how does it affect game play?  I would guess that if one or more dealer's cards are visible, it makes the question of when to Fold FAR easier to answer.
*

[Hans]

And to add an additional question: typically in Stud poker the cards are dealt one at a time, with betting between.  It sounds like Yoikboy is thinking about something similar in his own Dust Devil game, but since there is no real betting, I'm not sure if this really adds anything.  I can't think of any incentive for a person to Fold before all the cards have been dealt and they have access to maximal information.  Am I missing something?

[Matt Snyder]

Hi folks,

I'll try to clarify how I do it, and how I meant the rules to read:

Players draw their hands normally. (They may have large numbers of cards in excess of 5.) With Knacks, the may discard a number of cards up to the rating of the knack, THEN draw an additional equal number of cards from the deck. They DO NOT have to draw down to 5 cards first, THEN discard again. The only requirement for 5 cards is that they PLAY five cards from however many they hold in their hands (For example, a player could have 9 cards, and choose from those 5 cards to play. The other cards are irrelevant after that).

Meanwhile, the Dealer is drawing a "stud" hand. All I mean here by "stud hand" is that he draws a simple number of cards, and that's it. He draws 3, 5 or 7 based on his judgment of difficulty for the situation. He draws them as part of the deal normally. And, he does not discard and redraw any cards. He plays 5 (or possibly fewer) cards from his hand.

There are a dizzying number of poker variations. I love to hear about people tinkering with Dust Devils and these variations. I've been toying with a Texas Hold 'Em style mechanic for larger group games. But, like Ron says above, keep in mind that it's not about the betting and bluffing in Dust Devils, it's merely a resolution mechanic with lots of atmosphere.

[Hans]

This answers my question, which was whether or not the dealers cards are visible (as the word "stud" implies to my mind) or hidden.  It sounds like you intended them to be hidden.  Thanks for the reply.