quoting lyrics

[rafael]

this may have been covered already, but i couldn't find any discussion of the subject anywhere on this site.

i've seen numerous game books quote popular song lyrics (a perfect example of this would be the core rulebook for vampire: the masquerade), and i'm wondering if this is something that indie rpgs can do as well.  aren't there fees?  isn't reproduction of copyrighted material (like song lyrics) prohibited without permission (which is usually costly)?  how is it that white wolf managed to include hundreds of quotes in one book alone?

has anyone had any experience with this in an indie rpg sourcebook?  just wondering.  thanks!

[Jared A. Sorensen]

has anyone had any experience with this in an indie rpg sourcebook?  just wondering.  thanks!

I have lyrics from songs and quotes from movies and books all over SCHISM. No lawsuits yet...

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

None of the following is to be considered legal advice.

I don't ask anyone's permission and I don't pay any fees. Instead, in all my publications, I include a line very much like this: "All mention of copyrighted works is for reference purposes only and is not a challenge of copyright or trademark." Or something like that; I'm not recalling the precise phrasing.

Then I quote as I please, giving full title and author credit. There are limits to the quoting - I try to stay within certain length limits (once or twice I've gone over), I never quote a complete song or a complete story, and I always pick a quote very carefully to accompany a given piece of my own text.

Again, I'm not a lawyer and this is not advice. For all I know, the only reason I haven't been sued eighty zillion times is because my work is totally beneath the radar screen of those folks who are watching for copyright infringement. On the other hand, some much more prominent game companies practice the same policy that I do, and they have not experienced any problems either.

Finally, I want to remind anyone who contributes to the thread that we are talking about quoting, not about using characters or passages as game content. The latter, used without acknowledgment or permission, is what usually gets people annoyed.

Best,
Ron

[Blake Hutchins]

And just to add a wrinkle:  my understanding (I have not researched this issue) is that you can refer to a musician or song by name in fiction, but quoting, say, a stanza of "Yesterday" in your story is verboten.  Assuming the story is for sale, of course.

Best,

Blake

[Paul Czege]

Hey,

I probably know just enough about this to be dangerous to myself, but I'll share. There are "fair use" laws that allow writers to quote from the copyrighted works of others without securing permission to do so. I believe you have to be very careful how much you quote though. If a poem is only five lines long, and you quote three lines of it, that's probably too much. You better get permission.

However, I don't think percentage is an absolute guide either. If a book is a hundred chapters long, and you quote two complete chapters, just 2% of the book, that's still probably a copyright infringement.

"Fair use" has not protected musicians who sample a riff from another musician's song and use it in their own. I believe Weird Al always gets permission, even though parody is recognized as an art form that doesn't require permission. I seriously doubt that Mad magazine gets permission.

I've heard people say that quoting from copyrighted works is fine if it's exposing the material to a potential audience. Like it's good for the copyright holder, free marketing or something. "I did him no damage. I didn't infringe him, I did him good." That's not true. Infringement isn't about intent to damage. My understanding of infringement is that it's about whether the owner of the copyrighted work deserves compensation, and whether the owner's right to control where his stuff is appearing has been violated.

But, y'know, this isn't legal advice. So don't subpoena me to your hearing.

Sorry in advance,

Paul

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Like everyone else - this is really not legal advice in any way.

I've read all morning about fair use, though, and here's what I've found: it usually applies to educational purposes. You could apply it to quoting in an RPG, though, especially if you could argue that the RPG is commentary on the lyrics/book quote/whatever.

Size of the quote does matter. One line of a book or song is not going to get you fined.

The major factor in this case, though, is that the quote would have no effect whatsoever on the market for the original. You are not only quoting a small amount of a whole, but you're doing it in a completely different format (music lyrics -> text, and even novel -> RPG flavor). No one is going to buy your RPG instead of that Def Leppard tape because you quoted the chorus of "Pour Some Sugar On Me."

Because of that, quoting song lyrics in an RPG should fall under "fair use" relatively easily.

I used a lot of sources, but the main one for this post is: http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellectualproperty/copypol2.htm.

[GMSkarka]

Actually, music lyrics have to paid for, no matter what the length.   Steven King tells a story that the only way that his publisher was willing to go to press with CHRISTINE was after King offered to pay the ASCAP licensing fees for all of the 50's song quotes out of his own pocket.  It was prohibitively expensive, apparently....although King at this point was already a millionaire, and went into his own cash.

White Wolf pretty much started the whole lyric-quoting thing in the RPG biz...and a lot of other people followed suit.   However, the fact of the matter is, what WW did is a copyright violation---just one that ASCAP never noticed.  

I think that's the crux, right there:  even this industry's larger success-stories are too small to be noticed.  But if they are ever noticed, watch out.   Lawsuits will fly.

I'm only familiar with the song-lyrics side of the argument, through my experiences with ASCAP (long story).   Not sure how it applies to quoting film or written works.

GMS

[rafael]

thanks, all, for the feedback.  i'm not sure if it's something i even want to do, but it's best to know this sort of thing beforehand.

strange to think of white wolf as below someone's radar -- they seem vast.  but you're right.  they're not mainstream culture.  not really.

guess that makes me plankton.  i kind of like that.

[Seth L. Blumberg]

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is not legal advice. Seek advice of competent counsel before proceeding. Swim at your own risk.

The major factor in this case, though, is that the quote would have no effect whatsoever on the market for the original. You are not only quoting a small amount of a whole, but you're doing it in a completely different format (music lyrics -> text, and even novel -> RPG flavor). No one is going to buy your RPG instead of that Def Leppard tape because you quoted the chorus of "Pour Some Sugar On Me."

Because of that, quoting song lyrics in an RPG should fall under "fair use" relatively easily.

"Fair use" is completely irrelevant to RPGs. It applies to educational uses, parody, and reviews, and it never applies to song lyrics.

Since the lyricist is owed a royalty for every appearance of any excerpt of his work, you will be liable for damages if you quote a song lyric.

Whether it's worth ASCAP's time to sue you is another question.

[contracycle]

I don't think you'd be at risk, insert standard disclaimer.

As I understand it, copyright is not a form of intellectual property.  The media good you buy, in this case CD's, is the product retailed by the record company - at no point do you pay to hear the music, you pay for the medium on which it was published.  Because the motive you had for your particular purchase was the material on the media, it is right and proper that the author should get a cut, which is why the usual arrangement is perecentages and why some people think fixed deals are immoral.  Copyright is intended to protect the author from an unscrupulous publisher moving product and failing to give a due cut; however, this applies to the actual work i.e. the music.  Reproducing the music lyrics does not in any sense reduce anyones capacity to profit from the actual work rteailed on its media.  The time limit on copyrights reflects the recognition that certain works become public domain, as in the case of Jingle Bells.

I'm no lawyer either, but thats how they taught it in my cost and management accounting course; of course our primary focus was physical product.

[Skippy]

I may be mistaken, but, I think WW did have some repercussions.  I have a first printing of the softback V:TM book, which I believe was recalled from distributors because of copyright issues with the lyrics.  As I recall, the next printing had fewer quotes, because they couldn't get permission for all of them.

Anyone else who can confirm or deny this?

Skippy

[Seth L. Blumberg]

I'm no lawyer either, but thats how they taught it in my cost and management accounting course; of course our primary focus was physical product.

They were mistaken. Copyright most definitely is a form of intellectual property.

Audio recordings are a special case, and special rules apply to them. The publisher holds copyright on the published album as a whole, and phonographic protection (which is distinct from copyright) on the audio recordings that make up the album; the lyricist holds copyright on the lyrics, and the composer holds copyright on the music. Because the publisher does not own the music or the lyrics, the publisher must pay royalties to the lyricist and composer.

If you quote song lyrics, you are violating the lyricist's copyright.

[Matt Snyder]

Quoting lyrics is just Wrong.

;)

[Bailey]

First up, quoting lyrics is not bad, and you'll just have to register and pay a straight mechanical.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I'd like to see a little more signal in this thread. As usual with discussions of IP and copyright, a lot of opinions and impressions are coming up, but we're not really achieving

Ralph, a while ago, you looked up about ten tons of material on copyright issues. Any chance of insight from them regarding lyrics specifically?

I also want to state that I was not as careful as I should have been in my last post - none of the quotes I used in my books were actually music lyrics, and so nothing I said was actually relevant to the topic. I apologize for the carelessness.

In conclusion, I'd greatly appreciate it if folks would consider carefully whether their post really addresses and illuminates the issue at hand, especially when we're talking about the messy and prone-to-wander topic of IP and copyright.

Best,
Ron