Perceived value of PDF vs. print

[Mike Holmes]

Ria, Ryan, you haven't really read this thread very carefully. Because if you had, you'd see that nobody here really disagrees with what you're saying. For example, I pointed out repeatedly how my personal predelictions for PDF had no bearing on their acceptability or percieved perceptions of the public - that in fact, the general public feels otherwise. I made no attempt to make Andrew think that the public wants these products more than printed books (and I don't think anyone else did, either). Again, if you think that's what I was saying, you weren't reading very closely.

Other of your assertments you make here have been addressed in other places. Take some time to read up.

As for my snarky comments to Andrew, the reason he didn't get up in arms about them is that he knows me, and I know him. The Forge is not some anti-social posting board with no personal context. So before you come in with all sorts of assumptions, you might want to get to know the place a bit. It's substantively different than other sites this way.

No, I'm not a moderator, just a concerned member, so take it as you will.

Mike

[Ria]

1) I think people have to work harder to get taken seriously if they do PDF only.

2) I think a lot of websites are not as professional as they could be, or aren't designed and laid out well, and they don't offer a perceived value. I have seen a lot of amateur looking websites or even really bad websites, and few top-notch ones. This makes the products seem cheap or, well, amateur. If I want to buy a product, it will likely be from a professional, not a hobbyist or perceived hobbyist. I won't give examples because this isn't a slam, but I'm sure one can find stuff out there that shows this example.

3) Even if the website is top of the line, if they offered me a hard-copy, I would buy that instead of a PDF. I don't think I am alone in this, and if one wants to reach the largest potential market possible, maybe one (as in any indie publisher) should make a hard-copy available.

Since this is supposed to be a forum for an exchange of ideas, I don't see how these points do not add to the conversation. I was under the apprehension that this topic covered a particular segment of the market and their preferences, which are largely based on the perception that PDFs are not worthwhile. I think if some of these issues were addressed, I, as one of these people who prefer hard copy, would feel my needs were being addressed. If those needs are not addressed, if one does not work to change my assumption, my assumption will remain as it is, and I will not buy PDF games. This is offered in the sincerest hope someone finds this feedback useful.

[Andrew Morris]

Since this is supposed to be a forum for an exchange of ideas, I don't see how these points do not add to the conversation.

The original topic was to discuss whether it's possible to make PDFs palatable to those who don't perceive them as being as valuable as a print version. Discussion along the lines of "you should also offer a print version," doesn't address that point. It's not a matter of stifling exchange of ideas, just of keeping them on topic.

To make an analogy, it's like asking for strategies to make people who instinctively dislike motorcycles consider buying one, then pointing out "you should also sell cars."

While I'm not a moderator, I suggest that this thread has served its purpose, and all further discussion should take place in new threads.

[gatekeeper]

Since this is supposed to be a forum for an exchange of ideas, I don't see how these points do not add to the conversation.

The original topic was to discuss whether it's possible to make PDFs palatable to those who don't perceive them as being as valuable as a print version. Discussion along the lines of "you should also offer a print version," doesn't address that point. It's not a matter of stifling exchange of ideas, just of keeping them on topic.

To make an analogy, it's like asking for strategies to make people who instinctively dislike motorcycles consider buying one, then pointing out "you should also sell cars."

While I'm not a moderator, I suggest that this thread has served its purpose, and all further discussion should take place in new threads.

Once you and your friend Mike begin to understand business and marketing, you will begin to realize that many times a meeting about "X" can end up being a meeting about "B" which becomes equally and sometimes more important. In the case that "B" might become too far off topic and be a discussion for another meeting, then you can kindly guide people back on path. Your comments above are not only hypocritical, it's completely off topic and offers nothing to the discussion, nor does it encourage people to speak their opinion.

I usually ignore amateurs as yourself, because I realize not everyone understands business or even basic social skills. You both should take your own advice, and likewise spend more time offering valuable feedback, and less time condoning. Believe me, sitting behind a computer, you don't sound intelligent, or make yourself look important by offering criticism, in fact in my business meetings, I make it a point to highlight that criticism and complaining is for weak minded individuals, but solutions, and encouragement is what will turn you into a leader.

Ria
 Your information was valid; please let me know any market research you have been able to come up with on this topic. I would be interested in anything additional you could add.

Thanks, and lets just move on please

[Valamir]

Ryan.  That is entirely enough attitude from you.

For future reference as to how the Forge works, Andrew created this thread.  Therefor Andrew can determine what is and isn't on topic for the thread.  Not you.  If you have additional comments to make that Andrew has declared to be off topic, you are welcome to start your own thread and set the topic as you please.  You don't get to ramrod your opinion on what is and isn't on topic through on this thread.  And you sure as hell don't get to use some "professional vs. amateur" bullshit to pretend like you have the authority to do so.

I don't know what your "professional" credentials are.  Or how you've acquired your "business sense" but if you are as skilled in the areas of business and marketing as you claim, then I'm sure you have alot of great suggestions and advice to contribute to this site, particularly in the Publishing forum.

But leave the condescending attitude at the door.  Whatever chops you think you have elsewhere don't make you anything special here.

[gatekeeper]

To be honest, It looks like you all are doing great, and don't need help from me or the companies I work with. Our reason for coming to this site was based on a recomendation from a very fine author of books on game design, and we thought our recent market poll could use some research from beginner, amateur, and professional game designers. Speaking of which, the only thing that seperates anyone is passion for your product, and the ability to listen. I have collected the research I needed from this site, and I will return as promised to post the nearly 10k results we received, to help anyone who can utilize them.

I bid everyone good luck, and look forward to seeing your products on the shelves.

Ryan

[Ria]

This is off-topic, but in direct response to a question I was asked. I'll be brief.

I'm sorry Ryan, but I have no hands-on market research. I go from my own reactions and my gut, and that is that you can't make someone want something they perceive as valueless or a bother.

The only way to fix that is to find a different way to give them what they want, make a concession so to speak. If you're only going to give a PDF, then make it seem as good as a book, or better. I think this reassures the customer and encourages them to make future purchases even if they normally wouldn't, because they perceive that you give them what you want. In other words, make a promise and deliver. The web-site is the promise, your product is the delivery. DON'T PROMISE MORE THAN YOU CAN DELIVER, or you shoot yourself in the foot!!!

The question a publisher has to ask his or herself about their website is, does this show the product (in whatever format) to its best advantage? Does it reassure the consumer that their money will be well-spent? Does it answer any questions or leave doubts or sow confusion? ANYTHING you sell where the consumer has to take your word for it (instead of like where they can handle it, in a store) puts the risk on the consumer. Reduce that sense of risk, and you make a sale. I only like to gamble in Vegas, so to speak.

I think a website can boost sales if done well and can really instill a sense of value and desire in someone if done right. Look at a few movie sites with their trailer. They have to get someone into the theater, and a lot of someones, because they put all the money up up-front. Their web-designs MUST tease the viewer, and also answer questions, what's it about, what's in it for you, why would you like it.... If more people did their game sites in a similar fashion, I think people would be more game to try new games, again in whatever format. Based on these movie sites, I plan on watching or buying something; a website is like an online commercial -- but I can look at it whenever I feel like it, as often as I want, and I can send a copy to all of my friends if it's really cool (!!!).

The other thing to remember is having teasers before something becomes available (an ad for a pre-release item) and eventually a page for the newly released item. Make sure a release date is on the pre-release notice. Don't ever forget the drama of anticipation -- people get excited about things, and mark them on their calendar. If you're excited about your product, other people get excited too.

Finally, if it works for the big boys, why wouldn't it work for the little guys? I feel it's important to let the people who can afford to do the market research do so, and I just learn from what they do. It's important to remember we don't live in a vacuum, and not to design things as if role-playing was so different from anything else. It's an entertainment product, and needs to be marketed as such.

An example of a movie site I'm talking about is: http://www.eternalthemovie.com/default_f.asp

I am not saying you need to have a trailer on your website, I am saying look at what they did here. Look at the information they packaged to the audience. How can you do the same thing for your audience? Unless you convince me I want your product, PDF or not, I won't buy. Convince me I want your PDF - sell me on what it's going to do for me. Isn't your PDF the same as all the other thousand PDFs out there? Convince me it's not.

I'm done posting on this topic, since it seems to just irritate people. My apologies in advance to those who find this irrelevant. Thank you for your time. I wish you well.

[TheLe]

My question is whether publishers who offer PDF games have found any good strategies for winning over individuals such as myself, who can't get past the gut-level aversion to paying for an intangible product. Any information or theories would be welcome.

I have had great luck just giving them away for free. I have some 25+ pdf products on sale at Rpgnow.com, and I give away at least 3 a week.

All for the sake of promotion. I have strengenthed relationships with current customers with this, and have gotten many new ones.

Yes it works, but I get 1 new customer for every 10 books I give away, sometimes less.

~Le

[Travis Brown]

Well naturally there are many different values which both formats present, and I do believe that the more means of exposure you have, the greater your chances of gaining a customer.

I do agree with Mike Holmes that reading at a computer screen is generally more comfortable and easier to navigate in some ways. I do however feel that I can more easily get a point of reference by viewing an entire page in hand, whereas in PDF format it's a bit hard since the formatting does not allow for clear viewing of full pages unless your LCD monitor has flipped landscape capabilities (and very few do).

Then of course there is the physiological argument of it. Print just provides a higher material value for most people. If you can't physically feel it or see it's perceived value, most people are less inclined to get it. this is the exact reason that most people decline extended warranties when buying electronics and other items when the warranties are offered. There is no tangible value, it;s the same thing with insurance.

I think the bottom line of PDFs is that they are an excellent promotional tool. If a publisher has PDF version of their game at less than half the price of the full version, more people will be willing to take the plunge and take a chance on that game since the cost is much less. Throw in the "discount on hard copy for PDF purchases" deal and you have a formula for success. For instance our printed RPG book The Crossroads of Eternity retails for $24.99, we are going to sell a PDF for $9.99 and discount the printed book by the cost of the PDF for those who buy the PDF first.

My point of thought on this is that you are not out any sales since 1) the PDF didn't cost anything (no cost of goods) 2) they paid for the hard copy and thus have it in print anyways so you aren't out anything by them having both formats for the same price, and 3) the customer may feel a bit less jilted in paying $9.99 for a game they may not like, than if they spent $24.99 for the hard copy and now have a physical book they don't need lying around. They may even be inclined to try out a different product since the cheaper PDFs are available.

Format wise, PDF's are most popular since the acrobat distiller is a format that many major press printers use (mine included) which means a PDF output is needed to go to press anyways. The embedded fonts are also a nice plus so you don't need to mess around with including all font material with your printing material submissions. PDF's are also universal, one program reads them (acrobat) which is free to download and use, and included on so much retail software, that's it's quite easy.

Web formats I think are just silly, since all web browsers view the content differently and formatting would be a chaotic mess. Not only that, but formatting is difficult for those of us who program in raw HTML code without a GUI.

Of course the point then comes, the more formats the more potential sales, but also you cannot please all the people all the time, if you over diversify you loose the primary focus of your product and also have the ever daunting problem that you will have to be constantly updating content in multiple formats in order to keep everyone on the same page. Luckily for me, PDF and print content goes hand in hand anyways, but other mediums can bog down progress. I have plans for a flash based resource CD which highlights most of the aspects of the game for quick reference. This was an idea to increase ease of accessibility of the content because bottom line is that most people do not memorize all the material in a game, they like to have reference material on hand so that they can concentrate on the story which is happening around them, but that's a totally different point for a totally different topic. I myself don't even know all the ins and outs of every table and chart in my own RPG, but I know right where to flip to in a book to show you.

Personally I prefer to have a book in hand for play. I have tried to use PDF formats during the process of running a game with friends and found it entirely too constrictive, access time is so much slower than if you have familiarity with the location of the content in hard copy form. I like being able to just flip through or look up in contents/indexes the desired material rather than scrolling through page after page in a PDF. In the learning stage of reading the game and understanding it, I do very much agree that PDf is a better and much more clean format, but once we hit the game table, give me a book baby.