Forge Booth Customer Feedback

[thelostgm]

As customers to the booth, what didn't you like? Why?
- I didn't like the rack that the books were on.  When I was just walking by it took a bit too much effort for me to see them.  There placement didn't draw my attention, at all.
- In a couple of the demos I was really rushed.  Having someone push me through a demo as quickly as possible left me with little time to "learn and yearn" for their game.

What did you like? Why?
- Demos.  Because I get to try it before I buy it, simple as that.
- Playing demos with the creators of a game.  It gives me a chance to see the game through the eyes of someone with real passion for it.

What would you like to see different next year? Why?
- The books displayed in a way that draws my eyes to them.  Because its another way to get people to become interested in your book.
- Luke with a bottle of the tea drink they made for Andy Serkis while playing Golum.  Cause the time I played a demo with him he was loosing his voice.

[Robert Bohl]

Ok folks, this thread is for customers only. Members of the booth shouldn't post here. No responding to gripes!

As customers to the booth, what didn't you like? Why?

This is going to sound like a copout, but there weren't enough tables and there wasn't enough space.  With the volume of interest you guys generated, you needed something the size of the White Wolf booth.  I realize economic considerations come into play, however.  Anyway, it would've been nice to be able to demo more things but sometimes there just wasn't room.

Along the same lines, the triangular stand made it hard sometimes to get a look at the books that were on the back third, especially because a lot of that space was being used by games.

What did you like? Why?

Demos, demos, demos.  If I wanted to try a game (barring the above issues), I could, and usually with that game's designer.

The opportunity to pimp shit I liked to other people who were on the fence, and talk to them about their games.  The Forge booth winds up becoming something like an old fashioned "gamers wanted" bulletin board where you could get to know other people who were interested in looking past the behemoths.

What would you like to see different next year? Why?

More space, better racks, assuming this is fiscally realistic.

Really, I'm racking my brain to complain about something and this is pretty much all I can think of.

On the plus side, if there hadn't been a Forge booth, Gen Con would have totally sucked for me.

[Robert Bohl]

I want to do a little exploding of the "hard sell" issue. 

To me, asking, "What kind of games do you like?" is fine, and trying to get them interested in games they might like is good too.  It might be better to say, "Are you looking for anything in particular?" and then launch into the "what kind" question if people hem and haw.

Further if I am asked, "So would you like to buy it?" I'm okay with that, too.  Where I start to get uncomfortable is with the, "Well why don't you want to buy it?" point.  Note that this can be handled well (one designer asked me why and did or said something to make me feel like he really wanted to know and he wasn't being sulky about it--like what could he do to make it better?) but the chance for its being handled poorly are great enough that it's something I'd be cautious about.

[Andrew Morris]

Yeah, on the hard sell issue, I want to be clear: I have no problem with someone trying to sell their game to me (that's why they are there, after all), but there is a point where it becomes social pressure, and that's the point at which it becomes uncomfortable and puts me off.

For a great example of someone who can really sell a game without making a potential customer feel uncomfortable, look to Jared Sorensen. When I was at his booth, he answered any questions I had about the games, and pointed out the salient features of ones I wasn't looking at, so that I knew what was there. When I was talking about buying the perfect-bound copy if InSpectres even though I already had the coil-bound version, he didn't pressure me at all. He said something along the lines of, "Hey, cool. If you want it, buy it. It's money in my pocket. If not...eh, no big deal." Boom...I bought InSpectres and OctaNe without any reservation. I'll be looking up the other games he pointed out as well, and I'll probably end up buying them online. If he'd started pushing with something like, "Why don't you want to buy it? You like the game, right? So buy it." I probably would have walked off without getting anything.

I know his "sales pitch" sounds like it kinda sucks, but it's effective for two reasons. First, he gave info and showed enthusiasm for the games without unpleasant pressure. Second, he made it clear that while he'd like my businsess, he didn't need it. It's just human nature that when someone pushes something on us, our guard goes up and we get defensive. When someone conveys the sense that we'd be missing out on something cool, but doesn't feel the need to convince us of it, we get interested in it. We don't want to be left out of the coolness, so we're more receptive to it. I knew as it was happening that that was what was going on, but it didn't change my decision.

[Eric Provost]

Echoing:

Good
Demos.  Lisa and I demo'd so many games we were dizzy from it.
Energy.  Everyone was constantly hopping.

Bad
Hard Sell.  No need to embarrass either of us with it.  A majority of my spending money stops at the Forge anyway.
Silly product rack.  Product facing away from passing customers?  Silly rabbits.

Change
I really really like the idea of having demos on one side of the aisle and sales on the other.  Seems ultra-groovy to me.
I expect that having enough space on the sales floor for a lounge is likely so cost prohibitive as to be silly, but I wonder what it would cost to set up a Forge Lounge in some janitor's closet somewhere on Con grounds.  You know, somewhere in the same building (as opposed to like a hotel room a block or two away).  I'm imagining a set up with a couple comfy chairs & couches and maybe as many as two tables for playing longer term games.  I'm also imagining selling 'memberships' to interested loungers.  I'd pay good money to be admitted to the champagne room of indie gaming.

-Eric

[Jon Edwards]

What I Liked
All the great new games. I was tempted to buy every single one. Over the course of a few visits,  I talked to several people and got good recommendations. It was great having the opportunity to talk with the designers about their games. I didn't get any hard sells.

What I Didn't Like
I agree with many of the comments and suggestions others have made: crowding, the bookshelf, credit card payment, sales area separate from demos,
etc. Whether because of location or presentation, some games definitely stood out more than others for me, e.g., A State got my attention immediately. I gravitated towards names I was familiar with and whatever drew my attention visually. If you had little comment cards with recommendations like some bookstores have, they'd probably get my attention.

What I'd Like to See Next Year
More opportunities to play Forge games in scheduled sessions or some place off the show floor. I guess a lot was happening at the Embassy Suites in the evenings, and I missed it.

All in all, great job! The Forge booth was the most happening place at the Con.

[M Jason Parent]

My recommendations, as a customer who came through and bought stuff:

Better display racks. You folks try to move a lot of product, so you need a lot more room to show it off, and make it easily accessible to people coming through. You have a year to shop around - there are affordable display materials out there, it is time to find them. I would recommend a power-wall of product if you can't get a better rack for the middle of the floor - a display rack like the triangle rack you used, but held up higher and run along the back wall. The real trick would be including 'posters' of the book covers along there too, so people walking past will see the covers and get their interest. You could also place the power wall on the periphery of the booth, with the demo tables behind it. It would make the demo tables feel a little clausterphobic, but would make the displays more visible. Honestly, without increasing booth space, I can't think of a 'perfect' way to promote the products visibly, so I would go the easy way and use the same setup as this year, but using much better display material.

More information about becoming involved: Pimp the forge proper a bit more, tell people how to get involved and how to get their own products out there. A booth would certainly have served me better than lugging copies of my game in my backpack. :)

---

Short demos in the booth, so there is always a space to step into to try it out, and long demos arranged elsewhere... Talk to GenCon about arranging demo space outside the booth, in the various gaming rooms - do NOT rely on open gaming space for this, however, as that space is often full, or VERY far from the booth.

---

The lounge idea is a good one, but to get a private room like that on the grounds means becoming a partner with GenCon. That's a lot of money, generally.

[cdr]

What I didn't like

I would have liked to pay with a credit card without needing to leave the hall to hunt for a wireless signal, but instead I just paid cash, so it wasn't that big a deal.

The triangle display of games was awkward to get to the inside of, given how tightly packed everything was, but eventually I wormed my way in.

What I liked

The Booth staff I spoke to were all very friendly and good about answering questions and asking what kind of games I liked and telling me about other games I might want to try.  The spiel for Polaris was particularly compelling, so I bought it.

The selection.  I bought 11 games, only one of which I already owned an earlier edition of. Nothing sold out before I could get a copy.

I liked the emphasis on demos, although I only played one demo, for Nine Worlds by its author Matt Snyder.

The energy level, and excitement of people enthusiastic about gaming.

The sales table being accessible from the aisle, so no need to wade in and out of demospace to buy.

What I'd like to see different next year

I'd love to see more demo room, although I recognize there's significant cost for that so maybe it's not feasible.  As it was, I didn't ask for demos for many things I would have liked to try, because I had already played them (Dogs in the Vineyard) or knew I was going to buy them anyway (The Mountain Witch), and I didn't want to take up space and time that could be better used on an undecided customer.

And may I recommend Robert Cialdini's Influence: Science and Practice to all the sellers?

[Robert Bohl]

What I'd Like to See Next Year
More opportunities to play Forge games in scheduled sessions or some place off the show floor. I guess a lot was happening at the Embassy Suites in the evenings, and I missed it.

I don't know if suggestions at this stage are noxious, but if everyone who stopped by the booth was told, "We also run off-the-books games in the Embassy suites after the dealer floor closes," that might help this issue.

[Judd]

What I'd Like to See Next Year
More opportunities to play Forge games in scheduled sessions or some place off the show floor. I guess a lot was happening at the Embassy Suites in the evenings, and I missed it.

I don't know if suggestions at this stage are noxious, but if everyone who stopped by the booth was told, "We also run off-the-books games in the Embassy suites after the dealer floor closes," that might help this issue.

I wonder if the Embassy Suites wasn't supposed to be a chill meeting of the Forge regulars and I effed up by mentioning it on a thread at all.

[Lisa Padol]

A suggestion: Talk to the folks at Looney Labs. They have done booth + room for games for years at Origins. At GenCon this year, they had the game room, and they split their stuff for sale among five booths of dealers willing to cooperate with them.

One thing that really worked for me at DexCon in July was the fact that the room behind the Forge sales area was essentially the Forge gaming room. I could get into lots of full games, which was what I needed to see how the games ran.

At GenCon, Tony ran a high energy 5 minute Capes demo. This was not enough to let me figure out whether I would enjoy the game or not, but it was enough to get me wanting to play a full session of the game so that I could figure it out.

[Luke]

I don't know if suggestions at this stage are noxious, but if everyone who stopped by the booth was told, "We also run off-the-books games in the Embassy suites after the dealer floor closes," that might help this issue.

Rob, you've already posted your comments. Stick to the format. Now shoo.

-L

[jenskot]

What I Disliked
Most of what I disliked was due to "hard sells", rudeness, and poor customer service.

I apologize if any of the following is too much of a rant.

I had 6 books in my hand (over $120 worth) and I was scolded for talking to friends before I made my purchase and were told we were forming a wall and to break it up. I was told to move along which really pissed me off. I can understand if I was there for a long time yapping with no intent on making a purchase but that was not the case.

The hard sell was off putting. I spent a lot of time in the exhibit hall and did not experience this anywhere else, which kind of made it more shocking by contrast when I would visit the forge booth. It's ridiculous when I have over $120 worth of books in my hands and people keep trying to sell me more product even after I say I am not interested. Once you say no, that should be the end of it. And I had to say no a lot because I kept being badgered. And several times I looked at a game, I was asked "are you going to buy it?"... and I was like "I'm just looking" which then was followed up with more badgering of "why don't you buy it?".

Some people there seemed knowledgeable but others were much less so. One person went on and on about how amazing Conspiracy of Shadows is and how much fun it is to play and then after a series of questions I find out the guy never played the game and didn't even know what the basic task/conflict resolution mechanic was.

This didn't happen to me personally but many of my friends who played demo's had a lot of pressure put on them afterwards to buy the game right then and now. Many of my friends who did not have enough money on them said they would come back but were then continuingly badgered to buy the game that instant. Many of them also said that there seemed to be a very high level of competition between fellow forge vendors. One person would finish a game and before they had a chance to ask questions a new person would run up to them and say "if you liked that game, you should demo and buy this one" before they were even done with the first game.

After the above experiences, I very much regret making my purchases at the forge booth. I love the books. But I heard that the forge did very well which could indicate that some of these tactics (for the short term at least) do work, and I wish I didn't help reinforce and reward that sort of behavior. I should have bought the same books at the IPR booth instead or online. If these tactics persist next year, I won't make that mistake again.

If the above sounds too harsh, I don't do so lightly. I love indy games and have multiple copies of the same games in my apartment for friends to borrow (3 copies of Burning Wheel, 2 copes of Dogs, 3 of my life with master and so on...). I've also helped run booths selling Forge games at local cons (Dexcon, I-Con, Ubercon) and I am friends with several of the game creators. I was just extremely turned off by my experience at the booth at Gencon.

What I Liked
- Great selection of games.
- Opportunity to speak to the game creators directly.
- Opportunity to demo the games with knowledgeable people.

What would you like to see different next year?
- Not repeating the incidents that I disliked, described above.

[jenskot]

I forgot one last thing. The second time I visited the Forge I brought my girlfriend with me and one of the games we purchased was Breaking the Ice (great game). After we made the purchase, one of the forge people leaped at us and very loudly proclaimed "IF YOU LIKE BREAKING THE ICE, YOU SHOULD BUY THE GAME THAT IS THE EXACT OPPOSITE" and presented some game with drawings of saiters on it. He then proclaimed "IT'S A GAME ABOUT HAVING SEX" and then he started snickering, smiling and nodding his head a lot like a 10 year old. We looked at him disgusted and promptly left.

[ejh]

What didn't I like?

• Agree with other posters that the display rack was difficult to deal with
• Hard Sell.  I didn't encounter too much of it but when I did it was uncomfortable.  I was really freaking poor this GenCon (showing up at all was a bit of a financial strain) and found myself explaining that to people more often than I would have liked.  This was not a huge issue but I thought I'd chime in with other voices.

What did I like?

• I liked meeting all these people, many of whom were just names to me before, and re-meeting the ones I met in 2003.
• Demos were hella fun.
• Several games I would never have known I would totally dig, I found out I totally dug by playing them.  I've bought one of these (because Ron hard sold it to me and I buckled and bought it) and will be buying the other two when I can.  (Sweet Dreams, Kayfabe, and Breaking the Ice)
• Graciousness, kindness, openness, and friendliness were the order of the day on everyone's part.

What would I like to see changed?

• I want to see something besides "hard sell -- buy this game!" and "I'm too meek to ask you to buy this game."  I'd like to see people ask me to buy their game, while making it clear that they are not pressuring me to buy this game.  This touches on a topic that is of particular interest to me lately -- the free request.  There is immense power in a request which totally and honestly respects the free will of the requestee and carries no implicit reward for a correct response or punishment for an incorrect response.  Another poster described an interaction with Jared which seemed to embody this philosophy very well.  "I'd love you to buy it, but I wouldn't want you to buy it if you didn't really want to."  Something like that.  We don't do much "free requesting" in this culture; we usually try to convince people to do what we want, or obligate them to do what we want, or else if we don't want to do either of those we're too shy to even ask them to do what we want, for fear they will take it as a hard sell.  I want people to *ask* me to buy their game, and to let me know they will appreciate my "yes" and respect my "no."  Sorry, got off on a rant there.
• agreement with other posters that more room would be good, and an option for longer/scheduled demos in addition to the pickups would be good.