My new game.

[TonyPace]

Some thoughts:

Powerful godlike characters affecting the worlds by raising huge armies - Yay! Bring it on! Goodbye to trudging through first level!

You say you want to be as different as possible from D&D while keeping the same functionality. Do you worry that keeping the same functionality means that players who are used to D&D will essentially play it just like a minor variant?

You said that you want the game to be about the effect that the character's actions have on the worlds they travel to. How does that work? Is it simply through conquest or ebb and flow or are there more variables that the characters can influence, like technology and culture and general magical ability.

I really like the sound and feel of the ebb and flow - but I worry that a binary representation of the mood of the world is a bit too direct. How do imbalances in ebb and flow affect the world? Is ebb all quiet and dying and flow all fire and action?

Where do the gate monsters come from? Are they just random travellers from other worlds who are perceived as monsters because of their extreme difference?

The PCs are the ONLY ones who can travel between worlds on purpose? I mean sure, godlike, special, but don't you need some sort of foil who can act against the PCs on their own terms?

And.... only five worlds? Have you read Diana Wynne Jones' Chestromanci series? I mention it because it's an awesome series in its own right and as gaming material, but also because it proposes a very cool alternate worlds setup that resembles what you have going on here.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

You do? That's cool.

Basically so far all I have is the effect it has on the environment and the effect it has on the character. As you've probably read, they are opposite. So far the only thing I can remember that I left out is the part where it's described how it affects the environment. I was thinking of making it default to affecting everything within a radius of the player, which is determined by the level, which means the higher level you are, the more you can spread out the effects, and the less likely that a creature will be affected near to you, though the general likelyness is about the same. As for you, the effect on you of using a spell with the ebb or flow property is to have that energy on you. The emnity of having a character with, say, flow, and the environment with, say, ebb, is something I definately want to emphasize.

-This is all great.  But the reason I like it so much is because it can apply to so much in your game.  Why limit it to just spells?  Why not create combat feats that warrior types and rogue types can use that also have an ebb and flow?  This way, everyone gets to participate and destabalization is more likely.  BTW, destabalization is what you want the PCs to have to deal with in your game, right?  Cause that's just cool stuff!

The game is set in a SF/F setting, but I'm sure you already know that. It's about the forces of change, their impact on the balance of the ebb and flow, and about the effect of the gates, and how they change how civilization advances. The nexus is really only accessible to the six main characters and whoever they so chose to bring along with them. However, each gate is timed for open and close. I'll explain this more in the next question.

-This is a lot of stuff about your setting- which is fine- but it doesn't tell me what your game is really about at all.  Do the PCs wish to cause the changes in Ebb and Flow?  Why, what's their goal?  Are they trying to prevent change?  Why?  What's their goal?

It really depends on if you want to play freeform or scenario.

-Okay, let me just talk about this for a sec.  It may sound like you are giving the players a lot of freedom by making your game capable of these two functions, but trust me you're not.  The last thing players want from a game design is no direction.  They do want to be told what play should look like and what their motivations should be.  Saying "Here's a bunch of setting and system information, go adventure!" is a lousey way to design a game.  You've got some great stuff here.  I recomend you choose just the "scenario" package for your game and stick with that.  In the end, you'll be much much happier with the design.

you have to deal with the 'monsters' that come through the gates.

-Why do the PCs want to kill the monsters?  Are they threatening something they care about?  Do the PCs gain some sort of control over their environment if they do?  IE, what's the reward that Player-Characters receive for killing the beasties?

If you want to know more about the main character's quest, I'll tell you. They have access to the facilities, and can USE them, rather than just maintain them, which is what the NPCs do, or if you want to play as them, your character in a freeform game. I've described the facilities, and how they work together with the nexus at times. The nexus is what is used to try to communicate with the ancients, and otherwise house the party, not completely safe, but safer than when adventuring.

-This is all good stuff.  Focus on it as a major aspect of your game.

You get to chose what to do, but you have the AI program to tell you what you should do, which agrees with what is happening in the rest of the world. Since the GM plays the hologram, that gives the GM power over what the hologram says, though that doesn't negate the responsibility to the rest of the world.

-Okay, let me see if I understand.  The GM (through the hologram) tells the players what needs to happen to fix the world/nexus/gate system.  The players then choose to attempt to do so or choose to further their own personal goals.  Is that close?  I can see a great game here if the players all have to choose a couple personal goals for their characters that often conflict with what the AI is telling them.  Making the PCs make those hard choices can lead to some really great game play.

most particular in that the freeform setting is too lax and the scenario setting is too strict

-The scenario probably isn't as strict as you think, and freeform never lives up to its billing IMHO.  So go full on with the scenario you've outlined and I think you'll end up with a pretty decent game.

Peace,

-Troy

[Starblade]

Some thoughts:

Powerful godlike characters affecting the worlds by raising huge armies - Yay! Bring it on! Goodbye to trudging through first level!

Well I want to make it so you have to earn it. If you play the game right, you can accelerate your growth. I hope it doesn't disappoint you that you will still probably have to go through first level stuff. But if it appeals to the people here more, I will make it easier to level up. I kinda disliked how you had to level up a stat twice before it meant anything, and you could only level up four times.

You say you want to be as different as possible from D&D while keeping the same functionality. Do you worry that keeping the same functionality means that players who are used to D&D will essentially play it just like a minor variant?

Yes, that's pretty much it.

You said that you want the game to be about the effect that the character's actions have on the worlds they travel to. How does that work? Is it simply through conquest or ebb and flow or are there more variables that the characters can influence, like technology and culture and general magical ability.

I was thinking that technology and culture would be difficult, but possible, to influence. The problem with that is that it's too much work to determine these things. I don't know what you mean by general magical ability, but I assume you mean something similar to technology, except for magic. IE new magic spells, and such. That would also be difficult. Unless, of course, I wrote down all the possibilities I could think about, or let the DM decide what each influence means.

As for conquest and ebb and flow, that is for certain something you will be doing.

I really like the sound and feel of the ebb and flow - but I worry that a binary representation of the mood of the world is a bit too direct. How do imbalances in ebb and flow affect the world? Is ebb all quiet and dying and flow all fire and action?

To tell you about the ebb and the flow, I'd have to tell you the history of the ebb and the flow.

In short: They were once a symmetric force, but asymmetries started to arise, with the advent of life. At that point they still both promoted life equally, though they were different. However, when civilization arose, civilized being started to favor flow over ebb, and the ebb would not simply die out, and the flow would not simply be used like a toy. This altered the nature of the ebb and the flow, and the instability manifested itself as the flow being all that is pure, and the ebb being all that is vile, but still struggling to maintain balance. There is nothing intrinsicly good or bad about either the ebb or the flow, yet civilization continued to view the flow as akin to good and the ebb as akin to evil. This inbalance has caused suffering for which there seemed no end.

So you see, I've made a religious thing out of the ebb and the flow.

Where do the gate monsters come from? Are they just random travellers from other worlds who are perceived as monsters because of their extreme difference?

Pretty much. However, part of the problem is gate rage. It alters your appearance and your perceptions to go through a gate, unless you had something that could change that, like technology or a spell of some sort.

The PCs are the ONLY ones who can travel between worlds on purpose? I mean sure, godlike, special, but don't you need some sort of foil who can act against the PCs on their own terms?

That's not true. Anyone can travel through the worlds on purpose, but only the Gaterunners can travel and understand what's going on, as most people think the gates are the gates to hell. Why are there none who believe they are the gates to heaven? I don't know, and in a way, I don't care to know. At any rate, only the Gaterunners (and their allies) know enough about the gates to make good use of them.

And.... only five worlds? Have you read Diana Wynne Jones' Chestromanci series? I mention it because it's an awesome series in its own right and as gaming material, but also because it proposes a very cool alternate worlds setup that resembles what you have going on here.

There are six worlds, and one nexus, at this point in the game development. I will have to check out the series you are talking about someday, but could you give me a brief synopsis of it?

[Starblade]

Heya,

You do? That's cool.

Basically so far all I have is the effect it has on the environment and the effect it has on the character. As you've probably read, they are opposite. So far the only thing I can remember that I left out is the part where it's described how it affects the environment. I was thinking of making it default to affecting everything within a radius of the player, which is determined by the level, which means the higher level you are, the more you can spread out the effects, and the less likely that a creature will be affected near to you, though the general likelyness is about the same. As for you, the effect on you of using a spell with the ebb or flow property is to have that energy on you. The emnity of having a character with, say, flow, and the environment with, say, ebb, is something I definately want to emphasize.

-This is all great.  But the reason I like it so much is because it can apply to so much in your game.  Why limit it to just spells?  Why not create combat feats that warrior types and rogue types can use that also have an ebb and flow?  This way, everyone gets to participate and destabalization is more likely.  BTW, destabalization is what you want the PCs to have to deal with in your game, right?  Cause that's just cool stuff!

The reason for this is because ebb and flow are both aspects of mana. I suppose I could create pseudomagic that also takes mana.

As for destabalization, yeah, that's pretty much it. While nature balances itself out naturally, you generally don't want that to happen, as nature is a harsh mistress.

The game is set in a SF/F setting, but I'm sure you already know that. It's about the forces of change, their impact on the balance of the ebb and flow, and about the effect of the gates, and how they change how civilization advances. The nexus is really only accessible to the six main characters and whoever they so chose to bring along with them. However, each gate is timed for open and close. I'll explain this more in the next question.

-This is a lot of stuff about your setting- which is fine- but it doesn't tell me what your game is really about at all.  Do the PCs wish to cause the changes in Ebb and Flow?  Why, what's their goal?  Are they trying to prevent change?  Why?  What's their goal?

The PCs want to balance the Ebb and Flow, because if nature balances it, it could cause catastrophy. Their main goal is to first learn as much about the ancients as possible, but then the ebb and the flow creeps into the game, then later you realize that the civilizations are in turmoil because of the gates. Then you can either support or suppress change, depending on what you believe would benefit the party, their families, and possibly the entire civilizations.

It really depends on if you want to play freeform or scenario.

-Okay, let me just talk about this for a sec.  It may sound like you are giving the players a lot of freedom by making your game capable of these two functions, but trust me you're not.  The last thing players want from a game design is no direction.  They do want to be told what play should look like and what their motivations should be.  Saying "Here's a bunch of setting and system information, go adventure!" is a lousey way to design a game.  You've got some great stuff here.  I recomend you choose just the "scenario" package for your game and stick with that.  In the end, you'll be much much happier with the design.

That's what I was going to do, but someone I know in person suggested otherwise. Though it may have been someone here. At any rate, that's what I wanted to do in the first place. Thanks for your support.

you have to deal with the 'monsters' that come through the gates.

-Why do the PCs want to kill the monsters?  Are they threatening something they care about?  Do the PCs gain some sort of control over their environment if they do?  IE, what's the reward that Player-Characters receive for killing the beasties?

Well, the first thing that comes to mind in terms of a reward is that if you kill these, you get to survive for that much longer.

Really though, I was thinking that you could earn money for killing the beasts, and they might have spell components on them. There will be some searching for spell components in this game.

As for the environment, yeah that's one of the things in the game. I see too little emphasis on ownership of land in games like this.

If you want to know more about the main character's quest, I'll tell you. They have access to the facilities, and can USE them, rather than just maintain them, which is what the NPCs do, or if you want to play as them, your character in a freeform game. I've described the facilities, and how they work together with the nexus at times. The nexus is what is used to try to communicate with the ancients, and otherwise house the party, not completely safe, but safer than when adventuring.

-This is all good stuff.  Focus on it as a major aspect of your game.

Thanks for your support. How big should I make the nexus, and how many gate facilities per planet, on average at least, should I have? That's something I'm still thinking about.

You get to chose what to do, but you have the AI program to tell you what you should do, which agrees with what is happening in the rest of the world. Since the GM plays the hologram, that gives the GM power over what the hologram says, though that doesn't negate the responsibility to the rest of the world.

-Okay, let me see if I understand.  The GM (through the hologram) tells the players what needs to happen to fix the world/nexus/gate system.  The players then choose to attempt to do so or choose to further their own personal goals.  Is that close?  I can see a great game here if the players all have to choose a couple personal goals for their characters that often conflict with what the AI is telling them.  Making the PCs make those hard choices can lead to some really great game play.

There will be plenty of drama in this game. I would hate to see people forced to chose what the GM wants them to do, but I would also hate for there to be no reprocussions for ones actions. The GM will represent the real world and cause and effect, whereas the players represent the free will and ability to judge their actions.

most particular in that the freeform setting is too lax and the scenario setting is too strict

-The scenario probably isn't as strict as you think, and freeform never lives up to its billing IMHO.  So go full on with the scenario you've outlined and I think you'll end up with a pretty decent game.

Peace,

-Troy

Thanks. I am SO glad to hear some people prefer the scenario idea.

[TonyPace]

My personal feeling is that making the players wait for the good stuff and suffer the huge likelihood of random character death with all the associated problems of bringing in a new character a la The Gamers is a recipe for crap play. Lots of my friends beg to differ and say that surviving all that gives your characters meaning, but it always sounded like masochism to me. Suffering the random deaths of several characters who were beginning to get that 'developing from a schmeal into a hero' thing really working hammered the point home.

If you're worried about D&D functionality bringing about D&D play, then the obvious answer is to drop a lot of the functionality that doesn't directly attend to what this game is about.

I don't like the 'vile' and 'good' interpretations of ebb and flow as basic effects. That short definition is what people are going to latch onto when they are coming to grips with the setting, and that in turn is going to drive how they deal with things in play. All the deeper meaning will get eliminated through the way it actually plays out. Maybe the local interpretation of good and evil changes on different worlds and so 'good' civilizations can base their societies off of either ebb or flow? Then they can see with their own eyes several radically different interpretations of good and evil before getting a more balanced picture of the truth. Show, don't tell, in other words.

But this still doesn't get to the basic question. How would a major imbalance in ebb/flow actually manifest in a locale?

The built in story is fine with me - in practise a group can always walk off the path if that's what they decide to do. Nobody needs to hold your hand for that. A real story can provide a lot of useful ideas about direction of play. And I do think it's central to the setting and situation of play of your game, so you should talk about it a little more.

There are definitely ways to make the technology and magic levels of the societies change in play, made even easier by using scenarios. You just have a little statblock for each society with sliders for magic vs. technology and military vs culture and ebb vs. flow, and maybe raising magic will drop tech (just like ebb and flow). As players, you can change those values by introducing certain technological tricks, maybe even very basic stuff at the extreme (just by showing the locals some of the possibilities on the other end of the spectrum). A little like the humanity mechanics in Vampire, where really easy actions will call for a roll to change at one extreme, but at the other end it takes a massive effort to push it farther.

The gates sound cool. My offhand thought is one gate per major society, which adds up to a lot. Alternately, you could start with one gate per world and then give them the resources relatively early on to construct more gates, perhaps through a device at first and later under their own steam.

Chestromanci: Hard to sum it up simply, but essentially there are an infinite series of alternate histories. However, the paths between these worlds are channeled so that it is much easier to travel to a few of them. Several of these worlds are aware of the others and can communicate, but few can actually travel between them. One such world has an office of government called the Chestromancer, who is a very powerful dimensional traveller who is appointed to deal with troubles on alternate worlds. He has a spell on him that lets him hear you if you speak his name three times, no matter where you are.

Howl's Moving Castle is based off her work, if you've seen that.

Another good resource would be Vincent Baker's Ars Magica Knockoff, which deals with similar issues of a home base and dimensional connections. It's not a finished game or anything, but it's got some cool ideas.

[Starblade]

My personal feeling is that making the players wait for the good stuff and suffer the huge likelihood of random character death with all the associated problems of bringing in a new character a la The Gamers is a recipe for crap play. Lots of my friends beg to differ and say that surviving all that gives your characters meaning, but it always sounded like masochism to me. Suffering the random deaths of several characters who were beginning to get that 'developing from a schmeal into a hero' thing really working hammered the point home.

Yeah, I was talking to a friend of mine, and he suggested another way to make the system work, a different way that allowed the PLAYERS to develop in roleplaying, which led me to start the characters as the best of the best (of the best).

If you're worried about D&D functionality bringing about D&D play, then the obvious answer is to drop a lot of the functionality that doesn't directly attend to what this game is about.

Yeah, I was thinking I should drop classes and leveling up and all that.

I don't like the 'vile' and 'good' interpretations of ebb and flow as basic effects. That short definition is what people are going to latch onto when they are coming to grips with the setting, and that in turn is going to drive how they deal with things in play. All the deeper meaning will get eliminated through the way it actually plays out. Maybe the local interpretation of good and evil changes on different worlds and so 'good' civilizations can base their societies off of either ebb or flow? Then they can see with their own eyes several radically different interpretations of good and evil before getting a more balanced picture of the truth. Show, don't tell, in other words.

Neither do I like the good/evil vile/pure interpretation. A better one would be direct vs subversive. However, there should still be the idea that early societies believe that flow is good and ebb is bad, otherwise why the imbalance in the first place? I like how you talk about how it turns out that the truly developed societies learn that ebb and flow are equally good. That's pretty much the way I planned it.

But this still doesn't get to the basic question. How would a major imbalance in ebb/flow actually manifest in a locale?

Well, the locale would prefer the effects of flow over ebb, or vice versa. Then, depending on what they preferred, the ebb/flow creatures would show up. There are two types. First is having the ebb or flow touched creatures, the second is having actual true ebb or true flow creatures, made completely out of ebb or flow and nothing else.

The built in story is fine with me - in practise a group can always walk off the path if that's what they decide to do. Nobody needs to hold your hand for that. A real story can provide a lot of useful ideas about direction of play. And I do think it's central to the setting and situation of play of your game, so you should talk about it a little more.

The main story starts off with the characters being brought in the nexus. This is something that hasn't been seen before by any of the six races, since all the gates only connected to the other worlds. Here is where they learn that they all 'worship' the same ancients, and along with the AI verifying that interveners did in fact intervene in their races, they decide right then and there to determine who the ancients actually were. My decision right now, and this will probably be a popular one, is that they will be a collection of races.

Going into more of the story will take time. If you like what you see, I'll explain more.

There are definitely ways to make the technology and magic levels of the societies change in play, made even easier by using scenarios. You just have a little statblock for each society with sliders for magic vs. technology and military vs culture and ebb vs. flow, and maybe raising magic will drop tech (just like ebb and flow). As players, you can change those values by introducing certain technological tricks, maybe even very basic stuff at the extreme (just by showing the locals some of the possibilities on the other end of the spectrum). A little like the humanity mechanics in Vampire, where really easy actions will call for a roll to change at one extreme, but at the other end it takes a massive effort to push it farther.

That works. Then there's the issue of how advanced each society is, which would make it easier or harder to change magic vs. technology, et cetera. Oh, and BTW, if you don't already know, each society is pre-industrial age. When they are going through the industrial age is something you, the characters, might be able to influence.

The gates sound cool. My offhand thought is one gate per major society, which adds up to a lot. Alternately, you could start with one gate per world and then give them the resources relatively early on to construct more gates, perhaps through a device at first and later under their own steam.

Actually, I was planning on making there 20 gates per planet, and 6 gates in the nexus, meaning 126 gates overall.

Chestromanci: Hard to sum it up simply, but essentially there are an infinite series of alternate histories. However, the paths between these worlds are channeled so that it is much easier to travel to a few of them. Several of these worlds are aware of the others and can communicate, but few can actually travel between them. One such world has an office of government called the Chestromancer, who is a very powerful dimensional traveller who is appointed to deal with troubles on alternate worlds. He has a spell on him that lets him hear you if you speak his name three times, no matter where you are.

Actually, I think I've mentioned this before, but before the work of the Gaterunners, there was no communication between the societies. Language differences aside, there simply wasn't any person who knew how to travel through the gates without gate rage overcoming them. This was a method taught to the Gaterunners, and which they have to chose how to, and even if to, teach to others.

Howl's Moving Castle is based off her work, if you've seen that.

Uh, I've seen commercials. The moving castle thing, is that the one where the flame talks? :P

Another good resource would be Vincent Baker's Ars Magica Knockoff, which deals with similar issues of a home base and dimensional connections. It's not a finished game or anything, but it's got some cool ideas.

Well, that's a different game from my game. I'm planning on interplanetary travel being a frontier, which is going to be developed by six heroes. In fact, the whole new frontier thing may in fact work on different levels as well.

I hope that explains a few things! Remember, this game is continually in progress. Nothing is really 'set in stone', so much as it is 'held up by popular demand'. ^^

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

The reason for this is because ebb and flow are both aspects of mana. I suppose I could create pseudomagic that also takes mana.

-Well, mana is just a power source, right?  So who says spell casters are the only ones who know how to use it, eh?  And who says everyone who knows how to use magic casts spells?  Your game doesn't *have* to adhere to those rules.

That's what I was going to do, but someone I know in person suggested otherwise. Though it may have been someone here. At any rate, that's what I wanted to do in the first place. Thanks for your support.

-Consider my support vehement.

Really though, I was thinking that you could earn money for killing the beasts, and they might have spell components on them. There will be some searching for spell components in this game.

-All the more reason to make sure that more than just the spell casters can use "magic" or whatever you choose to call it.  That is unless all characters are spell users of some sort.  Is that the case in your game?

There will be plenty of drama in this game. I would hate to see people forced to chose what the GM wants them to do, but I would also hate for there to be no reprocussions for ones actions. The GM will represent the real world and cause and effect, whereas the players represent the free will and ability to judge their actions.

-That's good.  What kind of mechanics do you have in mind that will let the players set the agenda and judge their own actions?

Peace,

-Troy

[Starblade]

Heya,

The reason for this is because ebb and flow are both aspects of mana. I suppose I could create pseudomagic that also takes mana.

-Well, mana is just a power source, right?  So who says spell casters are the only ones who know how to use it, eh?  And who says everyone who knows how to use magic casts spells?  Your game doesn't *have* to adhere to those rules.

Good point. But what other ways than casting spells are there to use magic?

That's what I was going to do, but someone I know in person suggested otherwise. Though it may have been someone here. At any rate, that's what I wanted to do in the first place. Thanks for your support.

-Consider my support vehement.

Thank you.

Really though, I was thinking that you could earn money for killing the beasts, and they might have spell components on them. There will be some searching for spell components in this game.

-All the more reason to make sure that more than just the spell casters can use "magic" or whatever you choose to call it.  That is unless all characters are spell users of some sort.  Is that the case in your game?

Yeah, I was thinking all of them would have some magical ability, though I like your idea that they aren't necessarily spellcasters. The way I see it, the power they have in themselves is related in some way to the world on which they live.

There will be plenty of drama in this game. I would hate to see people forced to chose what the GM wants them to do, but I would also hate for there to be no reprocussions for ones actions. The GM will represent the real world and cause and effect, whereas the players represent the free will and ability to judge their actions.

-That's good.  What kind of mechanics do you have in mind that will let the players set the agenda and judge their own actions?

As for setting their own agenda... given that it's a pen and paper game, I could just let them explore the world as they pleased. Then based on what the GM had in mind going in that area, stuff would happen. As for judging their own actions, it's suggeste that the GM has something in mind as for the way things worked. That is, in addition to the given cultural data on the species. Then the players would have to use reasoning to figure out what would happen when they did this or that, and test it in the game. I'm not sure exactly I'll explain this to the players and GM, but I suppose I should write a thing or two about sociology, biology, and all that, and let them interpret it as they may.

Sorry if I'm being vague, but it's very hard to be specific and still flexible in ones words. Too much in laxness or strictness could affect gameplay negatively.

Peace,

-Troy

[joepub]

Good point. But what other ways than casting spells are there to use magic?

We already discussed this a bit privately, but my suggestion is that "mana" is tied intrinsically to all actions. Everything we do in real life if fed off of this intrinsic mana - we just don't realize this.

Thus, all actions shift ebb and flow - however so minutely that it is often hard to measure.

Planting a seed requires some small amount of this intrinsic mana running through our veins, and boosts flow slightly.






And it is only big actions, and "magic", that offset ebb and flow drastically.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Good point. But what other ways than casting spells are there to use magic?

-Well, think of them more as natural abilities.  Haste can be a natural ability, not just a spell.  A brief bonus to a stat can be a natural ability.  Speaking with animals, visions, climbinb walls can all be special abilities.  In fact, many of the things we call spells, could work just the same as Feats in DnD.  Also, where do magic items come from?  Perhaps any character can make a magic sword or wand or gun or whatever if they permanently sacrifice mana in the process.  That's a crafting skill not a spell.  Also, perhaps a player with a high mana total affects the environment of the nexus and gates in some way.  Again not a spell. 

As for setting their own agenda... given that it's a pen and paper game, I could just let them explore the world as they pleased.

-Nah, just tossing characters in a setting then saying, "Okay, you guys figure out what's suposed to happen" really leaves the players hanging.  Instead, create some sort of dire situation that they must address in some way.  For instance, say the gates are collapsing, there's monsters everywhere, a new cult is taking over that is demonising the AI so it's under threat, and the PCs are all caught in the middle of it.  It's up to them what they do about it, then the GM can react to that.

I'll explain this to the players and GM, but I suppose I should write a thing or two about sociology, biology, and all that, and let them interpret it as they may.

-Use that to describe the situation the characters are dropped in.  You have great stuff, it just needs to be a bit edgier.  It's okay to force the players do deal with a specific secenario so long as you don't dictate HOW they deal with it.  If you have a chance to think about the situation for your setting, I'd love to hear what you come up with.

Peace,

-Troy

PS:  Joe wrote something very interesting.

[Starblade]

For Joe's questions:

We already discussed this a bit privately, but my suggestion is that "mana" is tied intrinsically to all actions. Everything we do in real life if fed off of this intrinsic mana - we just don't realize this.

Thus, all actions shift ebb and flow - however so minutely that it is often hard to measure.

Planting a seed requires some small amount of this intrinsic mana running through our veins, and boosts flow slightly.






And it is only big actions, and "magic", that offset ebb and flow drastically.

I like that, but why would it take mana to plant a seed? Perhaps it always takes mana to plant a seed, to move, and even to think. Suppose the seed grows, it takes energy to grow, so it takes mana. So the flow builds up. Or perhaps mana is somewhat of an enigmatic force, that tethers everything together, so that any change from a simpler order to a more complex order reflects an increase in mana. Something that is inanimate does not really affect mana all that much. Simple life forms affect mana a bit more, and as the life forms increase in complexity, they affect more and more mana, until we get into sentient life forms.

One of the things we should avoid is directly correlating ebb and flow with good or evil. I had a talk with you about this earlier, but I think I should share it:  If the focus of the cost-benefit is inwardly favored, it's ebb, and if it's outwardly favored, it's flow. That would also explain why in some cultures, there would be an overusage of flow, and in other cultures, there would be an overusage of ebb. Now I don't mean to imply good and evil here, but some will read that into it.

BTW, in the game, there will be no good/evil or chaos/law alignment. Whether one aligns with another is much more complicated than that in this game.

Also, whether something is reguarded as an ebb action or a flow action is dependant on how it affects the one doing the action, since there is no overall consumption of ebb and flow.



For Troy's questions:

Heya,

Hiyas.

Well, think of them more as natural abilities.  Haste can be a natural ability, not just a spell.  A brief bonus to a stat can be a natural ability.  Speaking with animals, visions, climbinb walls can all be special abilities.  In fact, many of the things we call spells, could work just the same as Feats in DnD.  Also, where do magic items come from?  Perhaps any character can make a magic sword or wand or gun or whatever if they permanently sacrifice mana in the process.  That's a crafting skill not a spell.  Also, perhaps a player with a high mana total affects the environment of the nexus and gates in some way.  Again not a spell.

That makes sense. And thinking of mana as a form of energy, that is called upon not just by spellcasters but by anyone who seems to need it, is an interesting idea.

Nah, just tossing characters in a setting then saying, "Okay, you guys figure out what's suposed to happen" really leaves the players hanging.  Instead, create some sort of dire situation that they must address in some way.  For instance, say the gates are collapsing, there's monsters everywhere, a new cult is taking over that is demonising the AI so it's under threat, and the PCs are all caught in the middle of it.  It's up to them what they do about it, then the GM can react to that.

Well there would be different problems depending on where they went. I don't want to force them to proceed in a linear fashion. Of course, I want to nudge them a bit, and make choices where not doing one of the choices would be really really bad, or something like that.

Use that to describe the situation the characters are dropped in.  You have great stuff, it just needs to be a bit edgier.  It's okay to force the players do deal with a specific secenario so long as you don't dictate HOW they deal with it.  If you have a chance to think about the situation for your setting, I'd love to hear what you come up with.

So far, I've got five plot points: The nexus, the party, the ebb and flow, conflict within the planetary cultures, and conflict between the planetary cultures. Out of these, even if I don't force the characters to go in a specific direction, something is bound to come up.

Peace,

-Troy

PS:  Joe wrote something very interesting.

I looked at it. Obviously. :P

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I like that, but why would it take mana to plant a seed? Perhaps it always takes mana to plant a seed, to move, and even to think.

-I think you answered your own question :)

Suppose the seed grows, it takes energy to grow, so it takes mana. So the flow builds up. Or perhaps mana is somewhat of an enigmatic force, that tethers everything together, so that any change from a simpler order to a more complex order reflects an increase in mana. Something that is inanimate does not really affect mana all that much. Simple life forms affect mana a bit more, and as the life forms increase in complexity, they affect more and more mana, until we get into sentient life forms.

-Great stuff.  I might propose that when a thing grows it *creates* mana.  However, that might not jive with what you're going after here.  What do you think about that idea?

One of the things we should avoid is directly correlating ebb and flow with good or evil. I had a talk with you about this earlier, but I think I should share it:  If the focus of the cost-benefit is inwardly favored, it's ebb, and if it's outwardly favored, it's flow.

-Very good.  Have you thought about the mechanics you'll use to represent this yet?

So far, I've got five plot points: The nexus, the party, the ebb and flow, conflict within the planetary cultures, and conflict between the planetary cultures. Out of these, even if I don't force the characters to go in a specific direction, something is bound to come up.

-Okay, I think that's a good start.  Just make that some how, some way you make each of these matter to the characters.  And by that I mean, create mechanics and rules that encourage the players to care about these "plot points."

-Overall, I think you're progressing just fine.  At this point, I think we need to start seeing some actual mechanics from you concerning how you'll accomplish all this.  So, I have another set of questions for ya :)

1.  How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?  In otherwords,  when the players make a character, how do you weave the plot points you mentioned into their character sheets?

2.  What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?  In otherwords, of all the things the players and characters can do, which ones are you wanting them to focus most on?

3.  How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game? Like, what do the players and characters get for doing what you want them to focus on?

If these or any other questions I've asked don't make sense, let me know.  I'll be more than happy to clarify them :)

Peace,

-Troy

[Starblade]

Heya,

I like that, but why would it take mana to plant a seed? Perhaps it always takes mana to plant a seed, to move, and even to think.

-I think you answered your own question :)

Suppose the seed grows, it takes energy to grow, so it takes mana. So the flow builds up. Or perhaps mana is somewhat of an enigmatic force, that tethers everything together, so that any change from a simpler order to a more complex order reflects an increase in mana. Something that is inanimate does not really affect mana all that much. Simple life forms affect mana a bit more, and as the life forms increase in complexity, they affect more and more mana, until we get into sentient life forms.

-Great stuff.  I might propose that when a thing grows it *creates* mana.  However, that might not jive with what you're going after here.  What do you think about that idea?

Well it depends. Is mana simply an organization of energy in a certain way, or is it something more, like a force unto itself? Can mana be created and destroyed?

I think, since this IS sci-fi fantasy, mana should be energy that is capable of drawing effects through another hyperfield of existence, or better yet, PART of this hyperfield. It is attracted to complex things in the same way a rock falling toward a planet is attracted to that planet. The reason it has such complex effects is because mana attaches to something based on its information. So, this would answer that question. Mana isn't created or destroyed, simply moved, however it is drawn to life, and particularly drawn to more complex life.

One of the things we should avoid is directly correlating ebb and flow with good or evil. I had a talk with you about this earlier, but I think I should share it:  If the focus of the cost-benefit is inwardly favored, it's ebb, and if it's outwardly favored, it's flow.

-Very good.  Have you thought about the mechanics you'll use to represent this yet?

Yeah, somewhat. I was thinking of a bar that represents internal ebb and flow, and using a maplike format to demonstrate the ebb and the flow in the area. Though that might be too complicated for pen and paper play, I might just have the ebb and flow be spread out through the whole area. Of course, if I did that, then I'd be inaccurately portraying ebb and flow. I can't think of a good way to represent ebb and flow yet, but when I come up with one, or if someone else does and I integrate the feature into my as of yet developing game, I'll be sure to tell you. :P

So far, I've got five plot points: The nexus, the party, the ebb and flow, conflict within the planetary cultures, and conflict between the planetary cultures. Out of these, even if I don't force the characters to go in a specific direction, something is bound to come up.

-Okay, I think that's a good start.  Just make that some how, some way you make each of these matter to the characters.  And by that I mean, create mechanics and rules that encourage the players to care about these "plot points."

-Overall, I think you're progressing just fine.  At this point, I think we need to start seeing some actual mechanics from you concerning how you'll accomplish all this.  So, I have another set of questions for ya :)

Ah, good. You know, I learn probably about as much about my game when you ask these questions as you do when I answer them. :P

1.  How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?  In otherwords,  when the players make a character, how do you weave the plot points you mentioned into their character sheets?

Actually, if we do it scenario wise, there will only be character development. The characters will be pre-created. Unless of course you think this is too strict. However, since development at the beginning stages, in the nexus, will exist, perhaps I will let them alter their character more in the nexus than elsewhere. What do you think? Each of the six characters will start off with fairly basic and reasonable stats, which can be modified to a fair extent in the nexus.

2.  What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?  In otherwords, of all the things the players and characters can do, which ones are you wanting them to focus most on?

I want to focus on their creativity and ability to roleplay. I guess that's too broad, but the heck with it. It seemed like a good enough answer to me. See, I don't want this to be mainly luck based. I want the talent of the persons playing it to come out.

3.  How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game? Like, what do the players and characters get for doing what you want them to focus on?

It's the GM's job to determine if what they've done is something intelligent or something stupid. However, the main theme is that failing to do justice to yourself and others has negative consequences. The world, and you yourself, cannot rely on ebb or flow alone.

If you want the specific answer to that question, well, that takes us too far into the plot. However, given that there is a plot, I suppose I could make it timed, since actions occur in real time. At least somewhat. To the best of the game's abilities, actions occur in real time.

If these or any other questions I've asked don't make sense, let me know.  I'll be more than happy to clarify them :)

Peace,

-Troy

It's okay, I understood them. Though I may not have been able to answer them properly.

[joepub]

1.  How does the Character Creation of your game reinforce what your game is about?  In otherwords,  when the players make a character, how do you weave the plot points you mentioned into their character sheets?

Actually, if we do it scenario wise, there will only be character development. The characters will be pre-created. Unless of course you think this is too strict.

Oh. I didn't know you were planning to do pre-generated characters. May I ask if there's a specific reason for this?
Does it represent, say, the "nexus" picking who shall be a "gaterunner"?

3.  How are behaviors and styles of play rewarded or punished in your game? Like, what do the players and characters get for doing what you want them to focus on?

It's the GM's job to determine if what they've done is something intelligent or something stupid. However, the main theme is that failing to do justice to yourself and others has negative consequences. The world, and you yourself, cannot rely on ebb or flow alone.

Um... I think there's more to this question than "who's responsibility is it to determine rewards and punishments".

For example, you say you want to reward creativity and good roleplaying. That's a behaviour set you want to reward.
If you set up a mechanic to reward this, then you're on your way.
However, if yuo instead reward people "experience" for fighting in combat, that could potentially draw players away from the desired gameplay style.

I'm reading into what you're saying, but it seems like these are the things you want to reward players and characters with: characterization, ingenuity, exploration, discovery, decision making.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Starblade Wrote:

Actually, if we do it scenario wise, there will only be character development. The characters will be pre-created. Unless of course you think this is too strict. However, since development at the beginning stages, in the nexus, will exist, perhaps I will let them alter their character more in the nexus than elsewhere. What do you think? Each of the six characters will start off with fairly basic and reasonable stats, which can be modified to a fair extent in the nexus.

-Erm, ok I'll go with you on the pre-generated characters thing.  But here's my advice on that.  Create way more than just six characters for the players to choose from in the begining.  Like 15 or so at least.  Then, provide ways for them to immediately start changing the characters to make them their own.  This way they take ownership of the game right away and each time they play it, it will be different.  Even though this is a "scenario" as you put it, it is important to give the players as much freedom of choice and development as possible.

Joe Wrote:

Oh. I didn't know you were planning to do pre-generated characters. May I ask if there's a specific reason for this?
Does it represent, say, the "nexus" picking who shall be a "gaterunner"?

-Dang, that's good Joe.  It's an honor to be teaming up with you in helping Starblade on this.  Pay attention to what he said, Starblade.

Starblade Wrote:

Yeah, somewhat. I was thinking of a bar that represents internal ebb and flow, and using a maplike format to demonstrate the ebb and the flow in the area. Though that might be too complicated for pen and paper play,

-Bah, that's part of the GM's job.  Anyway, he should be taking his ques on what to introduce to the characters based on the ebbs and flows of various places.  It might require more bookwork, but every game is different.  So I think you're okay there.

Starblade Wrote:

It's the GM's job to determine if what they've done is something intelligent or something stupid.

-That's bad.

Starblade Wrote:

However, the main theme is that failing to do justice to yourself and others has negative consequences.

-This is good!  The GM's job is never to tell the player's their stupid or that the choice they made was "wrong" in some way.  He is to react to what the players do.  That means consiquences.  If the players decide to have their characters do something destructive, then the GM shows them the destruction they caused (and then also gives them a way to fix it and/or stop the harm from spreading).  This won't wreck your game.  You'll just have to trust the players to play in their best interest.  That's all any designer can do :)

Starblade Wrote:

If you want the specific answer to that question, well, that takes us too far into the plot. However, given that there is a plot...To the best of the game's abilities, actions occur in real time.

-I'd like to you to explain this to me just a bit more.  I don't want what the Plot is, but what I'm looking for is what the mechanical function of the Plot is.  In otherwords, what is role of the Plot in your game?  And what do you mean by Real Time?

Starblade Wrote:

Though I may not have been able to answer them properly.

-Eh, you're doing better than I did when people first ask me the same ones :)

Peace,

-Troy