Morality or When is a Superhero not a Superhero?

[TonyLB]

I had enormous fun with a comic opposite version of this at the DexCon game I played with Tony -- playing a character with all heroic drives who was nonetheless infused with *evil*

I have this idea on the backburner that some day I have to play a character with all villainous drives, who is a hero despite himself.  Sort of like Doom, as viewed by a grateful citizen of Latveria.  Yes, he's an obsessed, power-hungry, egotistical mad-man ... and that's why he defends us so well!

[Tuxboy]

*LOL* so very true...guess that why I like him so much...

[Ben Lehman]

Oh, speaking of which.

In hindsight, here was my plan for what the Iron Brain could do with Dr. Enigma's Virtue -- add it to the city water supply.  After all, the Iron Brain is not satisfied with two paltry heroes to fight!  He demands a whole city full of heroes to best with his brilliance!

And then the "heroes" would have to stop him from... turning everyone good?

yrs--
--Ben

[Tuxboy]

And then the "heroes" would have to stop him from... turning everyone good?

Oh now I like that...hell it would be like playing City of Heroes if they failed..."but I was going to save them...and I saw them first"

[Sindyr]

It's interesting how the Batman versus Superman story comes up with certain types of people in certain circumstances.

It's almost axiomatic.  That aside, my original point at the start of all this is simply that if Captain good dies, and realizes that death (apart from the potential pain of dying) is exactly like being alive except that you get MORE choices, then using death to rescue people in bad situations (assuming that he had a painless way to do it) is no different from other ways to rescue them, like opening a locked door so that they may escape.

To recap, if Captain Good after dying has all the same options and abilities as he had before dying, but also more in addition, then how is it wrong or unheroic for him to give that to others, even *if* he doesn't ask first?

A perfect analogy is finding a guy with 10$.  You slip another 15$ in his pocket without asking his permission.

If this is the extent of your "crime" are you really a good guy or a bad guy for "forcing" extra money on this guy? (Assuming good intentions and no evil plan as well for you nit pickers out there)

Now I know some of you guys see the name "Sindyr" and go into combat mode without thinking [chuckle] but really, consider the above - that is a HERO.

:D

[Sindyr]

On the flip side, I was inspired to create a supervillain for the Saturday Capes Game that thinks he's a hero.  Basically, he believes that it is vitally important that the human race toughen up and get stronger - so he creates mass trauma.  His mottoes are "no pain, no gain", "Evolution is not a choice, it's an obligation", and "Pain and suffering are the shortest path to wisdom and strength"

He probably experienced some kind of major trauma in his youth, learned to draw strength from that, and is now obsessed with making everyone else go through the same thing.  Perhaps at some deep subconscious level he simply wants to punish anyone who avoids trauma when he did not have that choice - or maybe he is truly megalomaniac and thinks he knows what's best for all - and their pain and suffering is a price he is willing to pay.

Perhaps it is eventually discovered that he released a virus that "only" killed 10% of a city's population - enough to make sure that most people lost someone.  Maybe his current plan is to kill a beloved and revered leader, knowing that will send millions of people across the globe into shock and horror.

Maybe he did that once before in Texas.

Anyways, some thoughts about a villain who perceives himself as a hero, fighting the good fight.

[Tuxboy]

It's interesting how the Batman versus Superman story comes up with certain types of people in certain circumstances.

Really? That's an interesting statement. Which particular Batman v Superman story? Which types of people and what circumstances? *L*

To recap, if Captain Good after dying has all the same options and abilities as he had before dying, but also more in addition, then how is it wrong or unheroic for him to give that to others, even *if* he doesn't ask first?

*L* I thought we had covered this, it was a faulty example that you cleared up my making your intent clearer. First example made him a murderer, second example didn't. The removal of people's freedom of choice to live or die was the issue.

Now I know some of you guys see the name "Sindyr" and go into combat mode without thinking [chuckle]

*LOL* You think? Could it not also be possible that:

1) People think it through then go into "combat" mode
2) People think it through, give a rational argument that you disagree with, and are perceived by you to be entering "combat" mode.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that most arguments that disagree with you are unthinking personal attacks, I think you'll find that most posters will think long and hard before posting reasoned responses, and should be given credit for that.

[Tuxboy]

Anyways, some thoughts about a villain who perceives himself as a hero, fighting the good fight.

As Tony mentioned earlier the villain that believes himself a hero is a staple of comic books, his examples of Magneto and Dr Doom are pretty much the archetypes for this.

They are prefect for the exploration of the grey areas of morality.

I might be wary of using him as a central player in a first time game of Capes though...the ambiguity of his nature might cause issues, but then again you might end up with some great conflicts because half the players side with him and half don't ;)

[TonyLB]

There's also a pretty significant "the winner writes the history books" phenomenon there.

Let's say I play Jenny Sparks, and I argue that super-beings have a moral duty which surpasses governments ... screw the governments, and screw the will of the populace, we're going to do what we know is right and we're going to freaking boot-stomp anyone who tries to stop us.

If the players all line up to oppose Jenny then you get a story in which she is the villainess.

If the players line up to support Jenny then you get The Authority, in which she is a heroine.

[dunlaing]

And the "good guy" gone "bad" is always fun to play with...especially if the rest of the group don't see it coming..."He did WHAT?!?!"

Also especially if the rest of the group did see it coming.  "This is why I kept this chunk of Kryptonite in a lead vault all these years.  I'd hoped I would never need to use it, but even back then ... there were worrying signs."

I know other people saw Batman when you said this, but the "rest of the group" part gave me a nice image in my mind of 6 panels, all laid out on the page around a single thought balloon connected to each panel, with each panel showing a different member of the Justice League reaching into a lead vault (although Flash's "lead vault" is probably just a sock under his bed).

[Sindyr]

There's also a pretty significant "the winner writes the history books" phenomenon there.

I would say the hero is not merely the hero because he got to write the history books.  I would say that committing acts that are villainous precludes one from being a hero.

I have some specific ideas of which acts are heroic and which are villainous, and I plan to ultimately be in Capes games that support those ideas - but that gets into the *other* thread, http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19312.msg202994#msg202994 so I shall say no more here.

[Sindyr]

A perfect analogy is finding a guy with 10$.  You slip another 15$ in his pocket without asking his permission.

If this is the extent of your "crime" are you really a good guy or a bad guy for "forcing" extra money on this guy? (Assuming good intentions and no evil plan as well for you nit pickers out there)

We all can agree that in general someone who *steals* 10$ from your pocket is not a hero.

What about someone who places 10$ in your pocket without asking permision?

I am truly and deeply interested in how different people answer this question.

[drnuncheon]

If the players line up to support Jenny then you get The Authority, in which she is a heroine.

I've always believed that The Authority was about a group of supervillains.

A perfect analogy is finding a guy with 10$.  You slip another 15$ in his pocket without asking his permission.

I dispute the perfection of that analogy, because it leaves out what makes the "kill them to save them" idea creepy and evil - that is, the violation of one of their fundamental rights under the excuse of helping them.  It is the perfect expression of the philosophy "the end justifies the means".

Given that, it is more akin to breaking into someone's house to leave them $10.  Or stealing their identity in order to clear up their credit history.  Or kidnapping them and subjecting them to experimental surgery that gives them super powers.  Sure, you're arguably doing them a favor, but you're doing it in such a way that violates them.  I know I'd be pretty creeped out if any of those things happened, and I certainly wouldn't regard the perpetrator as a "hero".

J

[TonyLB]

I've always believed that The Authority was about a group of supervillains.

It's an interesting question.  Some days I see it one way, some days I see it another.  The funny thing is that the story doesn't get any less interesting, and I don't sympathize with the characters any less, when I think of them as supervillains.  They're such cool supervillains.  I love Midnighter's speech after they singlehandedly topple a dictatorship and slaughter its troops:  Yes, I'd say it's extremely likely you can expect this sort of behavior again in the very near future.  The 21^st century is a bad time to be a bastard, children.  And he's dressed all in black leather.  Now that is a cool supervillain.  That's the kind of megalomaniac I want looking out for me.

The whole "hero" and "villain" labels are a bit wonky, anyway.  They really just mean "someone who does most of the important things right" and "someone who does most of the important things wrong," and what that leaves wonderfully, enjoyably up in the air are the questions of "What is right?  What is wrong?  What are the important things?"

[Hans]

That is, the violation of one of their fundamental rights under the excuse of helping them. 

This seems a good place to point out that what are perceived as fundamental rights, or better to say, the fundamental goods, that a society holds dear, is to some extent culturally based.  In the West, we tend to view personal liberty and freedom as the highest good; if a trade off needs to be made, the trade off will almost always be one that maximizes personal liberty at the cost of something else.  

But that is not universal.  A lot of people living in the former Eastern Bloc would perhaps list societal order (lack of crime, security of income and housing, etc.) as a greater social good than personal liberty; witness the vast support, even taking into account vote rigging, that people like Lukashenko get in Belarus.  In some societies, adherence to societal standards is more important than personal liberty; witness what seemed the close to universal opinion of the man on the street in Afghanistan regarding the culpability of Abdul Rahman for his conversion to Christianity.  

Therefore, what the player thinks is heroic or villainous may be very different, not just the what the character thinks, but from the societal perspective that character lives in as well.  Since almost all comic books are written from at least a neo-Western perspective, personal liberty has usually been considered the prime good.  But you could easily run a Capes game from the perspective of, say, the old Soviet Union, where the "super-heroes" could conceivably do things that we, as players, would find horrible, and within the context be given accolades.  

Or, you could enjoy the fun in the Psychadelic Capes one-shots I have organized, where the "super-heroes" are the ones that take nonconformity as the highest good, and the "super-villains" are the representatives of staid, oppressive, normalcy.  In Psychadelic Capes, if the Trip, a "hero", causes a tax auditors meeting, through his mind control powers, to simultaneously erupt into a massive orgy and dance party, this is not only acceptible, it is a heroic act.  Those squares NEEDED their minds freed!

The fun of this, and the meaningfulness of it, is that it helps the PLAYER explore their own understanding of right and wrong.