WGP Ganging up again

[Tindalos]

(lil snip)

So Wolverine just beat Juggernaut with the stakes "look badass" and then in the next page Storm loses with the stakes "prove my leadership" and in the next Cyclopse wins with the stakes "lets KO Jug-head" -- you end up inking it as Wolveine cutting off his helmet, Storm getting creamed by a fist, and Cyclopse jumping in at the last moment to KO him. Or, if you have Cyclopse win first and then Wolverine win and then Storm lose last, you just wait until everyone's had their go-round before you ink the final conclusion. You can still end up with Wolvering cutting off the helmet, Storm getting punched in the face, and Cyclopse blasting Jugs into a hole. It's even easier in the JLA example, where Superman can KO the bad any time, and Flash can still be left fighting fires and saving civilians for several pannels.

The time where it gets really tricky is where every person says their goal is "beat the crap out of Galactus as a team." Because then it does get a little difficult to ink everything smoothly. In those situations I find that I fudge a little and get people to make stakes like "I do my part of the grand plan to beat Galactus" as their stakes -- that way you may (for example) be succesful in blowing his Ultimate Nulifier out of his hand, but you still don't take him out until everyone has done their part. (And even then if you don't have the right place in the Arc, he isn't staying down.)

Thanks for posting that.  Those ideas should really help me out with my own game.  I've not had a problem, yet, but I could see these types of problems occurring with a larger group size and I think this approach will help greatly.

[klausok]

So Wolverine just beat Juggernaut with the stakes "look badass" and then in the next page Storm loses with the stakes "prove my leadership" and in the next Cyclopse wins with the stakes "lets KO Jug-head" -- you end up inking it as Wolveine cutting off his helmet, Storm getting creamed by a fist, and Cyclopse jumping in at the last moment to KO him. Or, if you have Cyclopse win first and then Wolverine win and then Storm lose last, you just wait until everyone's had their go-round before you ink the final conclusion. You can still end up with Wolvering cutting off the helmet, Storm getting punched in the face, and Cyclopse blasting Jugs into a hole. It's even easier in the JLA example, where Superman can KO the bad any time, and Flash can still be left fighting fires and saving civilians for several pannels.

The problem with that approach is this: what if Cyclops loses? That would look real weird on the comic page.

Three heroes are trying to stop Juggernaut doing some vile deed. First Cyclops is defeated. Then Storm. But then Volverine beats the villain and saves the day! No, wait. It was Cyclops who had the stakes that mattered. Wolverine beating Juggernaut makes no difference. The vile deed is done anyway.

The answer to that, if I understand the philosophy of the game correctly, is that Wolverine looking badass is as important to the story as stopping Juggernaut blowing up the city. It is probably a strife aspect. Otherwise why would Juggernaut bother fighting him? "Wolverine wants to look badass? (Shrugs) Fine by me."

But this is a game about heroes. Not just people with powers, but heroes. No matter how important looking badass is to Wolverine, he would go for saving the city first, and looking badass while doing it second. That is what makes a hero a hero. "People who chose to suffer so that others might be saved", as the rules put it.

[Brand_Robins]

Um, who said anything about Juggernaut trying to blow up the city?

Maybe he was trying to make the heroes look like idiots on national TV (being Jugs, by beating them silly). Maybe he was trying to get She-Hulks attention? Maybe he was out picking daisies and the X-Men jumped him so they could bring in a wanted criminal. Maybe a lot of things.

However, if the goal is really "save the city" than it's easy to get around the whole problem of this thread once again -- because many of the heroes won't all be fighting Jugernaut, or if they are will be doing it with the goal of SAVING THE CITY not the goal of beating Juggernaut. Beacause, as you point out, "he would go for saving the city first" -- and that means saving the city before beating up the badguy.

::shrug::

Sorry I couldn't be of more help. I'm honestly not interested in convincing you of anything, so if you haven't found it useful so far, then I think I'll be done now.

[klausok]

Um, who said anything about Juggernaut trying to blow up the city?

I did. Because that is the situation that gives problems: some dastardly deed that several heroes are trying to stop. No doubt there are lots of other situations the rules handle well. It is the problem areas that need discussing.

However, if the goal is really "save the city" than it's easy to get around the whole problem of this thread once again -- because many of the heroes won't all be fighting Jugernaut, or if they are will be doing it with the goal of SAVING THE CITY not the goal of beating Juggernaut. Beacause, as you point out, "he would go for saving the city first" -- and that means saving the city before beating up the badguy.

Yes, that is the solution. We will make up some house rule that allows this.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help. I'm honestly not interested in convincing you of anything, so if you haven't found it useful so far, then I think I'll be done now.

No, it has been most interesting talking with you. Thanks for you time and effort.

[Austin Walker]

However, if the goal is really "save the city" than it's easy to get around the whole problem of this thread once again -- because many of the heroes won't all be fighting Jugernaut, or if they are will be doing it with the goal of SAVING THE CITY not the goal of beating Juggernaut. Beacause, as you point out, "he would go for saving the city first" -- and that means saving the city before beating up the badguy.

Yes, that is the solution. We will make up some house rule that allows this.

Ok, so, I literally just finished reading the rules for the first time, and just registered to the forums, so maybe I'm speaking out of place here - if I am, please let me know. I've never run a WGP... game, nor played in one (though at Dreamation last year I managed to watch the last fifteen minutes of a demo, and yet for some reason was able to be so obsessed with going back upstairs and losing an L5R card tournanment that I refused to stick around and participate in the next demo...) however, I don't think that any sort of "house rule" is necessary here.

The WGP... book specifically gives exampels of team ups where heroes split the bill, so to speak, during a Conflict Scene. Step 2D of the conflict process (page 43 of the pdf, 39 as printed at the bottom of the page itself on the pdf) gives an example of Mudslide vs Debris + Noir, and at the same time Perjury vs The Stalwart (Which isn't a team up, so let's overlook that one for now.)

The GM, Grace, instigates the fight with Debris' player Deanna, claiming his stakes to be "Debris has to exit the scene with Mudslide." Deanna claims her stakes to be "Mudslide leaves the scene with Debris." (Because of the way inking works after a page of conflict resolves, these come out to be very different things, despite the fact that they look like the otherwise.)  Nate, Noir's player, suggests making his stakes "I beat up Mudslide," but Gracie, and nearby player Stephen, help pencil in a bit and come up with "If you win, you impress Pearl, your character's sweetheart." Grace then comes up with a second stake, for this seperate page of conflict: "If Mudslide wins, not only does Noir not impress Pearl, but she leaves the scene with Mudslide."

Michael has time and again said - both here and in the book - that due to a sort of conflicting nature of timing, the final inking of a page might be held on until the last page is finished. So, these are 4 stakes that don't conflict, what are the possible outcomes?

1. Mudslide beats Debris. Mudslide beats Noir. - Mudslide fends off the attacks of Noir easily, making him look like a pushover in front of Pearl, then scoops her up in her disapointed state, before knocking Debris out and swallowing the rock-woman up inside his bubbling shape and oozing away.
2. Mudslide beats Debris. Noir beats Mudslide. - This could go any number of ways, but here's one - Seeing Debris in danger, Pearl steps closer, trying to get a better look at the conflict. Suddenly she is taken up by the monster's gooey form, and her screams pierce the night sky. Suddenly, Noir swoops down (On his  Tapestry of Night (TM) ) and slaps a roundhouse kick into Mudslide's mallable form. He snags his girl out from his grip, and the two head off to a rooftop, Pearl justifiably impressed. Mudslide, free from distraction, turns his attention onto his other target, and whoops her good.
3. Debris beats Mudslide. Mudslide beats Noir - Debris and Noir do an excellent job at fighting the powerful mud man, but in a last ditch effort, Mudslide slips through the cracks in the ground, into the sewers. Confused, the heroes look around, until suddenly, he appears behind (dun-dun-DUN!) Pearl. He offers Noir a choice - Me or the Girl. He hesitates, Pearl looks hurt, and then looks muddy as she's swallowed up in his massive form. Debris finishes the job in a flash, but they can't seem to get Pearl free. Mudslide is carted off for study.
4. Debris beats Mudslide. Noir beats Mudslide. - This is the easy one - use your own imagination, eh? ;)

Likewise, if you look around this forum you can find Actual Play reports of WGP... that deal very, very much with "A city is in danger and a team helps it" or "one villian attacks 3 heroes." I remember one (that I'm too lazy to find and reference because it's 6:26 AM) where in a bunch of Zombies were overturning busses, setting fires by mistake, etc. Each hero had a different task.

And back to the bit about Juggernaut, if that fight was happening, it's the GMs job to make sure that his or her players' stakes don't overlap, and to help them pencil in ones that work and that are fun. Regarding these stakes - Wolverine: Look badass, Storm: Prove Leadership, Cyclops: KO Jug-head - you say:

The problem with that approach is this: what if Cyclops loses? That would look real weird on the comic page.

Not really, and we don't even have to get into the stakes of Jug-head to explan this one:

Cyclops loses but Storm and Wolvie win - Wolverine smirks as the trio sees Juggernaut rampaging through the city. "Hey bub! How about you pick on someone half your size!? 's more fun this way!" He rushes forward and somersaults himselft onto Juggernaut's head, and quickly begins dismantling his headgear. Juggernaut tosses the Canuk against a nearby brick wall, smashing it to bits, but before he can gloat, Weapon X is back on his feat - "Yeah, I hit the brick wall, it shatters all around me leaving me under a deep pile, but I stand up and grin. 'Hey, missin' something?' I say, as open my palm and reveal that Juggernaut's toss gave me the momentum I needed to yank out the last screw on his helmet. Ever so slowly, it falls off. Cyclps grins and sees his oppurtunity, firing off a quick optic blast at Marko's head. The Juggernaut turns and leaps just in time, taking the blast dead on, but in his body instead of his head. He charges forward maniaclly laughing - "NOTHING STOPS THE JUGGERNAUT!" he screams, and blitzes through a few more blasts from Cyclops before catching the Blue Team leader in his hand, and squeezing hard - hard enough to shatter Scott's visor and chuck him aside. When he hits the ground, a blast eviscerates the ground between the the two of them (plus Storm) and Wolverine. Cyclops thinks .oO(I... I can't control them like this. I can't let someone be hurt, not again... What am I going to do!?) Storm's eyes glaze over as she rises into the air - "Be still Scott, I will not let this brute harm the members of this team. Hear me, fogs of the valley, consume us!" A thick mist decends quickly and Jugs can't make out any of his targets. He's still free to wreck what he comes across, but at the very least, Storm has prevented her team from being dismanteled. She hovers down to Scott, guiding him safely through the fog as Juggernaut tosses cars randomly, each missing just by a bit. "Marko! Get it? Like Marco Polo! HAHAHA" says the Juggernaut, who quickly grabs the thought baloon .oO(Maybe I should go back to those improv classes...) The team flees the scene, Cyclops' loss allowing The Juggernaut to damage the scenery quite a bit, but unless his stakes against Cylcops (as that's who he beat) were "Damage the City" none of his damage will last more than the scene. Meanwhile, whatever his other stakes were, they've failed completely too!

*shrug* But, you know, maybe I'm overstepping my bounds? (PS - it's 6:50 now, I should sleep!)

[klausok]

Ok, so, I literally just finished reading the rules for the first time, and just registered to the forums, so maybe I'm speaking out of place here - if I am, please let me know. I've never run a WGP... game, nor played in one (though at Dreamation last year I managed to watch the last fifteen minutes of a demo, and yet for some reason was able to be so obsessed with going back upstairs and losing an L5R card tournanment that I refused to stick around and participate in the next demo...)

Don't worry about being out of place. I had not yet played the game when I asked this question. As you may have seen in another thread, I have now played part of a game. It doesn't look like I will get to play again. A pity. WGP is interesting.

Please note that I am not saying that there are no situations this game handles well. My opinion is that it handles many situations well. But there is one situation that it does not handle at all, and that is one that is crucial to team superhero stories. The villain is about to do some villainous deed, and the heroes try to stop him. As an example, I took a villain trying to blow up the city. Somebody chose Juggernaut, a character I don't know, so I don't know if it is appropriate. J picks a fight against Cyclops, choosing as his stake: "the city blows up". Cyclops has brought a few friends. My question is: how can they help him? It seems that they can't.

And back to the bit about Juggernaut, if that fight was happening, it's the GMs job to make sure that his or her players' stakes don't overlap, and to help them pencil in ones that work and that are fun. Regarding these stakes - Wolverine: Look badass, Storm: Prove Leadership, Cyclops: KO Jug-head - you say:

The problem with that approach is this: what if Cyclops loses? That would look real weird on the comic page.

Not really, and we don't even have to get into the stakes of Jug-head to explan this one:

Cyclops loses but Storm and Wolvie win - Wolverine smirks as the trio sees Juggernaut rampaging through the city. "Hey bub! How about you pick on someone half your size!? 's more fun this way!" He rushes forward and somersaults himselft onto Juggernaut's head, and quickly begins dismantling his headgear. Juggernaut tosses the Canuk against a nearby brick wall, smashing it to bits, but before he can gloat, Weapon X is back on his feat - "Yeah, I hit the brick wall, it shatters all around me leaving me under a deep pile, but I stand up and grin. 'Hey, missin' something?' I say, as open my palm and reveal that Juggernaut's toss gave me the momentum I needed to yank out the last screw on his helmet. Ever so slowly, it falls off. Cyclps grins and sees his oppurtunity, firing off a quick optic blast at Marko's head. The Juggernaut turns and leaps just in time, taking the blast dead on, but in his body instead of his head. He charges forward maniaclly laughing - "NOTHING STOPS THE JUGGERNAUT!" he screams, and blitzes through a few more blasts from Cyclops before catching the Blue Team leader in his hand, and squeezing hard - hard enough to shatter Scott's visor and chuck him aside. When he hits the ground, a blast eviscerates the ground between the the two of them (plus Storm) and Wolverine. Cyclops thinks .oO(I... I can't control them like this. I can't let someone be hurt, not again... What am I going to do!?) Storm's eyes glaze over as she rises into the air - "Be still Scott, I will not let this brute harm the members of this team. Hear me, fogs of the valley, consume us!" A thick mist decends quickly and Jugs can't make out any of his targets. He's still free to wreck what he comes across, but at the very least, Storm has prevented her team from being dismanteled. She hovers down to Scott, guiding him safely through the fog as Juggernaut tosses cars randomly, each missing just by a bit. "Marko! Get it? Like Marco Polo! HAHAHA" says the Juggernaut, who quickly grabs the thought baloon .oO(Maybe I should go back to those improv classes...) The team flees the scene, Cyclops' loss allowing The Juggernaut to damage the scenery quite a bit, but unless his stakes against Cylcops (as that's who he beat) were "Damage the City" none of his damage will last more than the scene. Meanwhile, whatever his other stakes were, they've failed completely too!

Yes, that might happen in a comic book. But it rubs me the wrong way for several reasons:

1) the players won two out of three fights, yet the net result is a resounding defeat. The city blew up, which was what they were out to prevent. Wolverine's victory mattered not at all, while Storm's turned an unmitigated disaster into an ever so slightly mitigated one. You might say that this is a gamist argument that has no place in this game. But logically it should be enough that one hero win. In the comic books you often see the heroes defeated one by one, until the last one standing saves the day. Here you need to pick the one to save the day ahead of time.

2) The reason the two heroes'  victories make no difference is that they chose stupid and unheroic stakes. I am not saying that that could not happen. Maybe looking badass is so important to Wolverine that he would choose that over saving the city. What I don't like is that the rules force him to make that choice. No, it does not force him to choose "I look badass". He can choose any other unheroic stake. But he can not choose "save the city", for Cyclops is already doing that. He should have the option of being heroic, of saying "I will save this city even if I must look like a wimp to do so". The rules deny him that option. And he can't very well stake something like "no person dies from the explosion" since there will be no explosion if Cyclops wins.

You may say that the GM should choose other stakes for villain. But I don't really see what they could be. "If I defeat Cyclops the central district blows up, if I defeat Storm the port goes, ..." seems very artificial to me. And there are other often used dastardly deeds which you can not split up like that.

Note that it makes no difference if Cyclops picks the fight and stakes "saving the city".

The villainous deed that must be stopped, making everything else secondary, is a staple of the superhero genre. So is the super team cooperating to stop it. I consider it a serious flaw in a superhero game if it can not handle this.

[Ludanto]

Ok, how about this?

1) If the villain can yeild to one hero to concentrate on another, your stakes must not have been very compelling.

2) If somebody winning a page of conflict makes somebody else's stakes invalid, so be it.  This keeps the villain fighting everybody, because yeilding to anybody means he loses, but once he's defeated even one hero, he wins his stakes, and the other heroes can't take that away from him.  Similarly, if even one hero defeats him, he can't win his stakes.  Either way, the "invalidated" side can still keep fighting, if only to keep the remaining opponents from winning their stakes.

I'm not really sure how often this would be a problem though.  The villain can only pick one fight at a time, and the heroes who pick fights with the villain can't really say what he can't do.  All they can say is, "This is what I get if I win".  Getting that will, by default, stop the villain from getting his stakes for that page, but the villain would be stupid to choose the same stakes as he's fighting for on another page.  Plus it's important to remember not to set your stakes too specifically.  "I cause great damage to the city" is a better stake than "I blow up the city".  That way, you can still win your stakes without counting on the city being Devastated.  It also allows you to apportion your victories.  Yes, Cyclops lost, so part of the city was destroyed, but thanks to the valor of Wolverine and Storm, much of the city was saved.

I think that works.